Raoul

[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>So, your basic argument is that if we sacrifice Israel, we will have better relations with the thugs who give us the oil. Of course, this is based on the assumption that, if we stop supporting Israel financially and militarily, the people (not the leaders, I am talking about the vast, uneducated masses) of these Arabs states will actually know about it and will magically take away all of their built up anger over the years and come to be our best buddies. It doesn't work that way Raoul. Personally, I think removing support for Israel will greatly weaken the state, and the leaders of Israel's neighbors (primarily Syria) will know this (as will Arafat), and exploit it. I wouldn't be surprised if such an occurance led to Israel ceasing to exist, and do you think a good democracy would come in its place?</strong><hr></blockquote>

My position is neither Pro-Arab nor Pro-Israeli, but Pro-American. America has absolutely no interests in the Israeli-Palastinian conflict. There are armed conflicts going on in various parts of the globe as we speak, and we simply can't afford to eternally prop up all of these governments with US taxpayer dollars. I would be very happy if the two sides came to a balanced agreement that would facilitate peace and security in the region. However, I am opposed to subsidizing the existence of a small country half way around the world, whose landmass is no bigger than New Jersey. We currently spend more per capita money on the Israeli military than we do on our own military. I would rather spend that money on a developing third world country where people are starving, or here at home in the US, or even better refund it back to the people - after all, it's our money.

[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>I truly hope you don't believe that, and I guarantee you it will not be our new best friend in the region if such a state does come about. The point is, the Middle East is always going to be a problem precisely because of oil (and no matter whose side we are on). The upper echelons of these societies are doing well, the remaining 99.9 percent live in the dirt, and that will never be cured with these societies (and especially not if we become buddy buddy with their governments). Thus, do you think the anger and resentment in the masses will go away. Of course it won't, so your faith is misplaced, and sacrificing a people is not the way to go about it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Perhaps you're overstating my views on Oil. I was merely stating the reality of our interest in the middle east. If it were up to me, we would be drilling in Alaska, off the Florida coast, as well as exploring alternative energy resources (wind/solar/fuel cel/hydro etc). The reality of being a market driven economy dictates that our interest in the middle east should be to maintain positive relations with the countries that we have economic interests with. It may sound harsh, but we have absolutely no economic interests in Israel. The only reason we aimlessly pour money into that country is because of the heavily pro-active coalition of Jewish-Americans on the left and Christian Conservatives on the right, who feel that we should ensure that Israel should be funded because of biblical reasons. Once again, if you're intellectually honest, then you will concede that this politically correct double standard is not in America's interests.

[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>As for the U.S. not having an interest in Israel and such, I vastly disagree. It you want a case of image, how good would it look if we let a democratic nation (albeit an imperfect one) to get run over by a bunch of autocratic thugs. Now, who else would we let this happen to? South Korea? Taiwan? I think you would probably say yes. Furthermore, should we not get involved in Europe as well?? Apparently, and all just to try to make some Arab oil tycoons happy. The fact remains, going into isolation mode doesn't suit the United States interests, and in most of these major situations, the UN and the EU will struggle without American help, or are you going to deny it to them as well?</strong><hr></blockquote>

You'll note that I'm not an isolationist, since I do favour an active US role in areas and situations where US interests are at stake. Its important to note that these conflicts are best resolved by multilateral organizations like the UN or the EU. Doing so sets a positive precedent because it allows for a more accurate barometer of world opinion to be factored into the equation, which in turn is in the best interests of everyone. Conversely, a strictly unilateral approach by the US is not the best approach that can be taken since it tends to geopolitically isolate us from the world community at large.


[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>The truth is, supporting Israel is a good policy in the Middle East, but that doesn't mean we can't work to get a Palestinian state as well. As I stated earlier, the OPEC nations aren't about to use oil as a weapon, for it would be far to risky of an endeavor to their political scene as well as their economic existence. Thus, the United States is not going to be threatened by a lack of oil, and so instead of concentrating on such an issue, it should instead concentrate on the establishment of a Palestinian state. We aren't going to be loved if Israel gets run over, and we aren't going to be loved if Palestine gets a state, for in both, historical hatred of the U.S. will always remain. However, getting a peaceful resolution to the crisis will garner a lot more stability in the region that would otherwise be capable. And stability is what the United States desires, for that in turn Raoul, will take away all these oil fears that you apparently have.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I never took a position that characterized our need to be loved by either side, and I'm frankly baffled why you would say that. The OPEC nations may or may not take action against the west. They've certainly done it in the past, and anyone who witnessed the long lines at the gas pump in the late 70s can readily attest to that. In the end, the best way to achieve peace would be for the international community to embrace the process by utilzing the UN, and other relevant multilateral organizations. The current one sided approach that has the US funding Israel is morally questionable since it funds the violence that it seeks to eliminate through diplomacy.