Bailing Ireland out

Livvie

Just said on the news that it would cost the British tax-payer 12 billion pounds.

Well, I can't manage that much. Would a tenner be ok?

WeasteDevil

I say let them rot!

Eyepopper

Imvading would probably be cheaper.

Just need to convince America we've oil.

Livvie

Good thinking. The Mouse that Roared?

Can we join you? We're not exactly in the best of nick ourselves.

Eyepopper

We've put 50billion into 1 bank, we're some way beyond not being in good nick I'm afraid.

WeasteDevil

It's all a bit sensationalist really isn't it? You have to love the British media. Any bailout would come from a fund that the UK has already paid into or has allocated funds towards, so there is no loss in this, the money has already gone. I wonder how much it would cost the British taxpayer to bail the UK out? Sounds daft that doesn't it, being bailed out partly by your own money?

WeasteDevil

Drop in the ocean that!

The UK as of December 2009:

Flying Fox

Slash PS jobs and get your pollies to give themselves super and pay increases

That'll fix the job

Eyepopper

2 thirds of our annual expenditure is on either welfare or public service wages yet our public services are a joke and we've people on welfare who are better off than if they were working.

WeasteDevil

What's the current monthly value on average of the dole in Ireland Popper, all things included, base payment, housing benefit, etc.?

Flying Fox

My post wasn't serious(ish).

We're in a similar situation (though not quite as bad) here in South Oz where we've suddenly gone from being one of the standouts within the Federation to a point where we're apparently borrowing to pay wages for the public sector (what's left of it, anyway). All the while the govt has said "let's save money" and boosted their super and pay in the process for doing fuck all.

Politicians, eh?

Viper KGB

Where's Bono when you need him?

Eyepopper

Single persons allowance is about 200 a week, thats before any allowances.

Don't ask me about allowances, you need to know how and what to claim. Needless to say I've often regretted wasting my time doing an IT degree when I couldve spent the time learning to work the welfare system.

Not sure what the overall monthly cost is to the state.

Eyepopper

One of two places. He's either helping the needie or talking to his accountant about how he can pay the least amount of tax possible.

WeasteDevil

In Spain, if you have nothing, no family (yes, they take into account how much your family earns), you are totally alone, destitute, they'll give you what is called subsistence pay of €400 per month. Not enough to cover the rent. I have no clue how people do this, even sharing a rented apartment will cost €150 per month, then there is, god!

I've never seen this before, but outside of every supermarket now there is a beggar with a sign, stood there 12 hours per day. I see at least 6 different people per day now that go along the street routing in the bins.

Eyepopper

A single mum in Irelan I reckon would clear that in a week and have her rent paid. Not that I object to helping those that are badly off, I dont. But if you're clearing 300-400 a week and have no rent to pay how could you afford to work on minimum wage, and theres no real effort put into putting people in a position to work apart from token efforts and training schemes, the aim of which is basically just to get people off the live register for a while rather than to turn them into contributing members of the work force.

Dont get me started on the Irish public service. Over staffed, not productive, massive cost, little return. For example our Health Budget for 2010 was 14 billion, they've said they need to cut this by 1billion for 2011. A lot of money to come from health but not an enormous percentage you'd think, until I tell you that 66% of that 14billion is wages (9.25billion) which cant be touched because of paydeals with public sector unions. So in effect 1 billion will be taken from the remaining 4.75 billion, in reality thats over a 20% cut in front line health spending.

In other words, beds will close, people will die but on the plus side the 20,000 mid level adminstrators working(ahem) for our health services wont have to take a paycut in line with cuts to the average industrial wage.

Lynott

Yep, absolutely scandalous.

KanieKaned

Can we not have a big oul french ass styled revolution whereby burning politicians on O'Connell St or something, I would be well game for it a BBQ

Viper KGB

Or just drive a cement truck into the Dáil

Im red2

Or maybe a Cantona style revolution. If first link is too slow try second link. In France they are withdrawing all monies on the 7th December!!!!

Videos posted by Lo sai: Eric cantona (football player): The best interview ever [HQ] | Facebook

Decotron

Eyepopper

What we're witnessing, on a global scale, is pretty much the failure of capitalism.

Global corporations and banking institutions are too entwined in governments and as a result cant be 'allowed' to fail... sorry but thats the game, you take stupid risks, you get caught you end up broke, no one had a problem with that system while it was making them rich and their heads were safely buried in the sand.

Gerald Celente speaking in 2007

RedSky At Night

Its like one big game of monopoly. Can we goto jail for a few turns?

Eyepopper

12 billion here, 50 billion there, 200 billion over there... its not even real money, its just zeros on a page... the end result will be a sort of bastardised socialism hiding behind a veneer of supposed capitalism.

The boys at the top the only ones free, the rest of us clerks and 'service' industry workers. slaves to multinational corporations in one way or another.

Cina

Well said Popper.

Our dole is a disgrace, it really is. I hope the coming budget rectifies it, they hit the Under 21s last time, I reckon they'll drop the Under 25s this time, they have to, it's shocking really. I know folks who get that 196e a week, and sometimes the rent allowance too and as such can afford to do absolutely fuck all and go on the piss 2 or 3 nights a week no problem. It needs to be dropped so they've the bare minimum to live right now, not so they can live their dream lives.

What's worst about this coming budget is that they're probably going to increase taxes on Under 40s again, and do fuck all with over 40s, which is just wrong, seeing as they're generally on a shitload more money and far more secure. I'm already getting taxed PRSI, PAYE, that 2% Levy and the 21% tax too, I've basically worked out that I'm currently paying someones dole every week, and they're probably going to throw another 5% on me now or something. Ugh.

WeasteDevil

In a way, I wouldn't blame many a British citizen thinking that way. We've seen them chuck their dummy out of the pram to be independent, on various occasions trying to block European treaties through some weird selfish sense of self importance, and now they're in the shit require their independence to be undermined somewhat by having to go cap in hand to the EU like a beggar or the poor child running back to daddy when he's down on his luck. This is a country that has never made a net payment into the EU since it joined, and between then and now has received around €50bn from the EU - independence my arse!

Decotron

Thing is Weaste the EU cant allow Ireland to slip, the 5 largest economies in the EU have said this. If id my way id let the germans run Ireland.

Flying Fox

Would the Germans want to 'run' Ireland though?

KanieKaned

i bet they'd love a shot

plus anything is an upgrade on the clueless fuckwits in our government

WeasteDevil

No they can't - in terms of protecting that bloody currency (which is half of the problem) we all seem to use day in day out, which is why many a British citizen hates the thing. If you put it into perspective, Ireland has received a net benefit of around €300 per person per year since it joined the EU/EEC, and it's still managed to make a right mess of things. If Ireland had been part of the UK, Germany, or France, it wouldn't be such a blow, because in population terms it's a large city. The fact that the weaker countries have no control over their monetary policy is disastrous. At times you had the likes of Ireland and Spain etc. growing at 9%+ with inflation through the roof, yet the ECB keeping interest rates low because Germany and France were not in that same position. The whole Euro experiment has been a total disaster.

Flying Fox

I'd look at the clueless fuckwits at the ECB while you're at it too.

KanieKaned

Its a right combination of fuck ups

Mister Jeebus

In recent years the Irish have become net contributors to the EU but it's closer to €80bn that we've received since joining. I say we, the overwhelming majority of that has gone to farmers via the joke that is CAP (€44bn between 1973 and 2008). Meanwhile the fishing industry was completely fucked over by the government when we joined, the opening up Irish waters to other countries estimated to cost upwards of - depending on who you believe - 5 times the monies received from the EU.

Anyway, the British contribution to the bail out isn't cash being handed over, it's a promise to support the Irish state should it default. Of course if our government hadn't nationalised the banks' debts then the large bond holders would have been burnt for billions. The large bond holders being of course British, German, and French banks, amongst others. Given that these countries have also been bailing out their banks this debt would have been transferred to their own citizens. Because of this the big EU countries have a vested interest in supporting the Irish state's bail out of her banks. Supporting the Irish through guarantees is much more palatable to them than having reckless bond holders getting burnt for billions.

De Selby

Fuck this, I'm ringing Joe Duffy.

He'll know what to do.

KanieKaned

ya mad he'll say isnt it awful blah blah blah he's a prick of the highest order

moses

I like our social welfare system. And it could be curtailed and streamlined, but the doleys, like the students, should not be top of the 'Financial Reform' list by any stretch. As for bailouts, who cares? I was not rich during the boom and am not hungry now it's gone.

KanieKaned

well said mo

Eyepopper

I dont, a mate of mine left school at 18 and never worked a day in his life until he was 26, at which stage he worked on the sly while still drawning it.

This summer my waste of space 18 year old nephew left school and decided he couldn't be arsed even applying for work, why bother when the government are going to give him 100 quid a week.

Thats before you get into the ridiculous situation of people on welfare who cant take a job because it would mean a drop in money for them, or the people registered who live in other countries and fly in to collect their dole.

These situations are crazy. I'm not saying those in need shouldn't get help, of course they should but the fact that the system is so easy to manipulate and abuse, and the fact that there are a great many people who cant get back into the working because they're effectively handcuffed to the welfare system indicates that major reform is needed.

Again though one of the major factors aside from the system its the people running the system. Take my mate who stayed on the dole most of the way through his 20's, at the height of the celtic tiger, the most that was ever required from him to prove he was actually looking for work was to say 'yes' when asked. No ones accountable, there's no traceability.

The only people who shouldn't be hit IMO are the elderly.

Mister Jeebus

Anecdote anecdote anecdote pops. Considering half of the near 500,000 people currently on the dole only lost their jobs in the last two years I wouldn't rely on the individual examples you personally know of to tar the vast majority. For one, people don't lose money by working. If they are working part-time they can still claim dole for the days they don't work. If they work a full week at minimum wage they earn 50% more than the dole and yet may still be entitled to supplementary welfare such as rent allowance, or to a medical card, if they need it. That canard about thousands flying back to collect their dole is complete cock, straight from the Daily Mail and not even deserving of rebuttal. There's undoubtedly foreigners exploiting the system, as there are undoubtedly Irish exploiting it. Frankly, the only thing I agree with you is the lack of accountability, as well as proper enforcement to catch those that are claiming illegitimately or cosily relying on social welfare for life.

One final thing, cutting your nephew's dole by half hasn't stopped him from refusing to work. There will be always those too lazy to work, cutting the dole won't suddenly imbue them with a sense of responsibility. It will affect those looking for imaginary jobs and trying to support their families on less than the state deem is the minimum a working person should be living on.

golden_blunder

Not fair, not true of all departments. My gf works in a dept (not say which one just in case she gets in trouble) but its a complete joke. Completely understaffed, she's doing the work of 3 people, long hours, stressed all the time. She tries not to moan but ends up in tears sometimes because she can't even take a day off without someone calling her to chase a bit of work.

That being said, there are complete wasters in various departments, not least the ministers and their lackies