Before the Big Bang?

MikeUpNorth · 7th November 2010, 11:12

It's not. Or at least only in the sense that Christopher Nolan's Batman is the same character as Adam West's Batman.

Raees · 7th November 2010, 11:15

Yep same god Marcus, seeing as Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all collectively known as the Abrahamic faiths.

No the God has been the same, the intepretation of his messages and who constitutes a prophet, is what distinguishes the three.

Mockney · 7th November 2010, 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeUpNorth

It's not. Or at least only in the sense that Christopher Nolan's Batman is the same character as Adam West's Batman.

We've had this conversation. You're wrong. It's the same character. Batman has one Wikipedia page. It's just a different 'interpretation' or description of him. And if you go off on one about how interpretations are viable as seperate entities I'm going to call you hungrywing II and bang your head on a table to knock your beret off.

MikeUpNorth · 7th November 2010, 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockney

We've had this conversation. You're wrong. And of course it's the same character. Batman has one Wikipedia page. It's just a different 'interpretation' or description of him. And if you go off on one about how interpretations are viable as seperate entities I'm going to call you hungrywing II and bang your head on a table to knock your beret off.

They have the same origins but they are separate entities.

It would be like claiming Chimpanzees and Orangutans are the same. Sure, they come from the same origins, and only (relatively) recently split, but they have now sufficiently diverged to be separate entities.

I mean according to the Muslim god Christians are going to hell, and vise-versa. That's a fundamental difference.

MikeUpNorth · 7th November 2010, 11:31

Apes have one wikipedia page (like God), but also individual ones for chimps and orangutans (like Allah and Yahwee).

Mockney · 7th November 2010, 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeUpNorth

It would be like claiming Chimpanzees and Orangutans are the same. Sure, they come from the same origins, and only (relatively) recently split, but they have now sufficiently diverged to be separate entities.

For that comparisson to be anything like accurate you'd have to say it was more like a new biologist coming along and claiming that older biologists had gotten their classification of Chimpanzees wrong and that they were actually Orangutans in his opinion. Either way, they would still be haggling over the classification of the same entity.

The New Testament and later the Qur'an were both supposed to be the clarification of the word of the God of the Israelites. Not the musings and judgements of a new God. Agreed?

Semantics. Stop being a spastic hungrywing

Mockney · 7th November 2010, 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeUpNorth

Apes have one wikipedia page (like God), but also individual ones for chimps and orangutans (like Allah and Yahwee).

First Paragraph:

Allah is the standard Arabic name for God.[1] While the term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabs of all Abrahamic faiths, including Mizrahi Jews, Bahá'ís, Eastern Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholic Christians, in reference to God.[1][2][3]"

Now point me to where Chimpanzees are referenced as a socio-geographical term for Orangutans and I'll concede.

MikeUpNorth · 7th November 2010, 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockney

For that comparisson to be anything like accurate you'd have to say it was more like a new biologist coming along and claiming that older biologists had gotten their classification of Chimpanzees wrong and that they were actually Orangutans in his opinion. Either way, they would still be haggling over the classification of the same entity.

The New Testament and later the Qur'an were both supposed to be the clarification of the word of the God of the Israelites. Not the musings and judgements of a new God. Agreed?

Semantics. Stop being a spastic hungrywing

So if I now come along and say 'actually Muslims have got it wrong too, it has been divinely revealed to me that the Abrahamic god is in fact a woman called Daisy who wants us to spend all our waking days wanking over images of Bette Midler', then that would also be the same god?

Don't talk nonsense. Things can diverge despite sharing the same origins.

MikeUpNorth · 7th November 2010, 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockney

First Paragraph:

Allah is the standard Arabic name for God.[1] While the term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabs of all Abrahamic faiths, including Mizrahi Jews, Bahá'ís, Eastern Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholic Christians, in reference to God.[1][2][3]"

Now point me to where Chimpanzees are referenced as a socio-geographical term for Orangutans and I'll concede.

Quote:

The first use of the name "chimpanzee", however, did not occur until 1738. The name is derived from a Tshiluba language term "kivili-chimpenze", which is the local name for the animal and translates loosely as "mockman" or possibly just "ape".

Chimpanzee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Winner.

Mockney · 7th November 2010, 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeUpNorth

Chimpanzee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Winner.

I've no idea what that proves, but it's not your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeUpNorth

So if I now come along and say 'actually Muslims have got it wrong too, it has been divinely revealed to me that the Abrahamic god is in fact a woman called Daisy who wants us to spend all our waking days wanking over images of Bette Midler', then that would also be the same god?

Yes. It would be your interpretation of that God. Providing of course you intend it to be. As the Muslims and Christians intended their books to be about the same, already worshiped God. It wouldn't be a completely new God.

Unless you intend it it to be a deliberately completey different and new God but where drawing comparissons with the old one to be deliberately obtuse. Like you'e done there.

MikeUpNorth · 7th November 2010, 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockney

I've no idea what that proves, but it's not your point.

Aww come on, you said Allah means god, so show me the equivalent whereby Chimp can mean Ape... and I did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockney

Yes. It would be your interpretation of that God. Providing of course you intend it to be. As the Muslims and Christians intended their books to be about the same, already worshiped God. It wouldn't be a completely new God.

Just as chimps aren't a completely new animal.

MikeUpNorth · 7th November 2010, 11:55

You know I'm right. Now, how about doing a little doordings...

Spoony Youngblood · 7th November 2010, 11:55

It's clearly the same god. If anything I'd say Christians worship the same deity slightly differently to Muslims and Jews. I mean the trinity...technically that's not even a belief in one God. Suppose you can thank the Romans for that.

MikeUpNorth · 7th November 2010, 11:59

Mockney, Spoony... I know you understand how much of the Christian story is influenced (i.e. plagiarised) from previous gods of other cultures, are you also claiming that those are the same god?

Mockney · 7th November 2010, 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeUpNorth

Aww come on, you said Allah means god, so show me the equivalent whereby Chimp can mean Ape... and I did.

No, I said show me the equivalent where Chimp meant Oranutan. Where certain people in certain cultures of the world use the word Chimp in relation to Oranutan in the way that Arabs of all Abrahamic faiths, including Mizrahi Jews, Bahá'ís, Eastern Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholic Christians, use Allah in reference to God

No one classifies Chimps as Oranutans. Because a chimp isn't a different personification of an Oranutan. There is no comparison unless you broaden your argument to 'apes' which isn't the same thing, as you've deliberately changed it to a broader umbrella term you weren't using originally.

Quote:

Just as chimps aren't a completely new animal.

..Just as Gods aren't a completely new thing. You chose the comparrison. Not my fault it was rubbish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeUpNorth

Mockney, Spoony... I know you understand how much of the Christian story is influenced (i.e. plagiarised) from previous gods of other cultures, are you also claiming that those are the same god?

They're not claiming to be. Each Holy book though is in fact claiming to be from the same God. Just as Batman is claiming to be Batman in all of his personifications, but Night Owl from the Watchmen is a completely new character, despite owing a lot of his influence to Batman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeUpNorth

how about doing a little doordings...

Tonight...I promise.

Spoony Youngblood · 7th November 2010, 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeUpNorth

Mockney, Spoony... I know you understand how much of the Christian story is influenced (i.e. plagiarised) from previous gods of other cultures, are you also claiming that those are the same god?

I'm saying if you ask a Muslim or a Christian they'd tell you that they worship the God of the Hebrews(the one that evolved after the Captivity). Your Batman analogy is more a kin to say Inana being worshipped by other cultures...under the guise of a different deity. I mean, Venus, Aphrodite, Ishtar and Uzza are the same deity but their worshippers probably woudn't believe that to be the case.

MikeUpNorth · 7th November 2010, 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockney

No, I said show me the equivalent where Chimp meant Oranutan. Where certain people in certain cultures of the world use the word Chimp in relation to Oranutan in the way that Arabs of all Abrahamic faiths, including Mizrahi Jews, Bahá'ís, Eastern Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholic Christians, use Allah in reference to God

No one classifies Chimps as Oranutans. Because a chimp isn't a different personification of an Oranutan. There is no comparison unless you broaden your argument to 'apes' which isn't the same thing, as you've deliberately changed it to a broader umbrella term you weren't using originally.

You're the one changing the analogy, I always had it as such:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeUpNorth

Apes have one wikipedia page (like God), but also individual ones for chimps and orangutans (like Allah and Yahwee).

The specific in both cases (Allah, chimp) can mean the general (god, ape).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockney

..Just as Gods aren't a completely new thing. You chose the comparrison. Not my fault it was rubbish.

The comparison stands. Your claim is that because something (in this case gods) derive from the same origin they are the same thing.

You made this point by saying 'it wouldn't be a completely new god', which is true, it would be a new version. Just as chimps are a new version, despite not being a completely new animal. Yet they are clearly different to other apes. That is the whole point, new things can be made as modifications of existing things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mockney

They're not claiming to be. Each Holy book though is in fact claiming to be from the same God. Just as Batman is claiming to be Batman in all of his personifications, but Night Owl from the Watchmen is a completely new character, despite owing a lot of his influence to Batman.

I don't see what the claim has to do with anything. I could claim an apple is an orange, but it isn't.

The fact is that Nolan's Batman and West's Batman have totally different personalities and are different characters. Clearly.

Spoony Youngblood · 7th November 2010, 12:17

That said, I think your Batman analogy is probably correct, but that's because man invented God. Unless he shows himself and say 'Hi', there will always be slight variations. The God of the Abrahamic religions is a kin to a Victorian father. He's the same god...virtually worshipped in the same way. But as I said, ask people of the three faiths...they'll tell you they worship the same God the Jews worship.

Peasplease · 7th November 2010, 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeUpNorth

The comparison stands.

The comparison's shit. Allah literally means God. God literally means Allah. Ape does not literally mean chimp nor does chimp literally mean ape.

MikeUpNorth · 7th November 2010, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peasplease

The comparison's shit. Allah literally means God. God literally means Allah. Ape does not literally mean chimp nor does chimp literally mean ape.

Chimp did literally mean ape.

Spoony Youngblood · 7th November 2010, 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peasplease

The comparison's shit. Allah literally means God. God literally means Allah. Ape does not literally mean chimp nor does chimp literally mean ape.

It means 'The God'.

In yer face.

Peasplease · 7th November 2010, 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeUpNorth

Chimp did literally mean ape.

Did it? Alright ignore that bit of my post.

x42bn6 · 7th November 2010, 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spoony Youngblood

That said, I think your Batman analogy is probably correct, but that's because man invented God. Unless he shows himself and say 'Hi', there will always be slight variations. The God of the Abrahamic religions is a kin to a Victorian father. He's the same god...virtually worshipped in the same way. But as I said, ask people of the three faiths...they'll tell you they worship the same God the Jews worship.

Unless you are in Malaysia, where Malay-speaking Christians aren't allowed to use "Allah" as Muslim clerics claim the Muslim God is different to that of the Christian God (forgetting the fact that the word "Allah" predates Islam).

Indonesian Muslims and Christians Argue over Allah - TIME

Spoony Youngblood · 7th November 2010, 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by x42bn6

Unless you are in Malaysia, where Malay-speaking Christians aren't allowed to use "Allah" as Muslim clerics claim the Muslim God is different to that of the Christian God (forgetting the fact that the word "Allah" predates Islam).

Indonesian Muslims and Christians Argue over Allah - TIME

You'll always get the odd spastic, to be fair.

MikeUpNorth · 7th November 2010, 12:32

I'm so glad you lot don't run patent law. With the amount of stuff you class as 'the same', there'd be no possibility for new invention.

Plechazunga · 7th November 2010, 12:32

There are at least three quite easily distinguishable Gods in Genesis alone, and another one turns up in Deuteronomy.

Spoony Youngblood · 7th November 2010, 12:37

YHWH, Elohim and some other bloke?

SiYuan · 7th November 2010, 12:40

How did a fairly good discussion about the Big bang turn into a contention over the status of an monotheistic Abrahamic god?

Plechazunga · 7th November 2010, 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spoony Youngblood

YHWH, Elohim and some other bloke?

Yeah. The P source also calls him Elohim, but I think they are separable, in that in E he is removed from the action and appears mainly through dreams etc., whereas in P he interacts via the House of Aaron, with which P is obsessed, and is most concerned with P's other big obsession, boundaries and dividing lines.

The God that shows up in D has a completely different style of speaking, and is a much more modern, philosophical conception of divinity, being expressly unnameable, unseeable and unknowable, and manifest only in the sort of paradoxical twilight zone of the Holy of Holies. He's a lot closer to SiYuan's God than the mediterranean hero-god of source J, and is exactly the kind of god you need if you're going to lock horns with a bunch of Greeks asking difficult questions...

Adzzz · 7th November 2010, 12:56

Don't forget Redegast, Valor although the Valar aren't actually gods they just have the power of Arda. These so called Eldar formed these names from the Sindarin language.

x42bn6 · 7th November 2010, 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdZzUtd

Don't forget Redegast, Valor although the Valar aren't actually gods they just have the power of Arda. These so called Eldar formed these names from the Sindarin language.

Radagast

SiYuan · 7th November 2010, 13:00

You guys left out the epic god of all time.

Adzzz · 7th November 2010, 13:01

Radegast, Redigast, he can't make his mind up either.

Have faith.

Spoony Youngblood · 7th November 2010, 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

Yeah. The P source also calls him Elohim, but I think they are separable, in that in E he is removed from the action and appears mainly through dreams etc., whereas in P he interacts via the House of Aaron, with which P is obsessed, and is most concerned with P's other big obsession, boundaries and dividing lines.

The God that shows up in D has a completely different style of speaking, and is a much more modern, philosophical conception of divinity, being expressly unnameable, unseeable and unknowable, and manifest only in the sort of paradoxical twilight zone of the Holy of Holies. He's a lot closer to SiYuan's God than the mediterranean hero-god of source J.

Written by many authors, so naturally there will be variations. As for YHWH, Orthodox Jews don't even like to write down his name do they?

Plechazunga · 7th November 2010, 13:12

No, and in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you got struck down with some horrible plague for doing so... probably AIDS

Adzzz · 7th November 2010, 13:17

Eru Illuvatar is the name they evidently don't like to type, I type it freely, with no fear.

Spoony Youngblood · 7th November 2010, 13:18

Forgive me, Hashem.

Adzzz · 7th November 2010, 13:22

Stone him!

SiYuan · 7th November 2010, 13:28

Give him jew-aids.

Adzzz · 7th November 2010, 13:33

Well this thread is now suitably off-topic.

Much like the Big Bang in itself, it started off a little like this thread (normative discussion) only to descend into chaos (the universe) it's fairly amazing that this thread in of itself is a microcosm of the universe and it's existence at large.

Think about that.

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7th November 2010, 11:12	#161 (permalink)
MikeUpNorth Wobbles like a massive pair of tits Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,227	It's not. Or at least only in the sense that Christopher Nolan's Batman is the same character as Adam West's Batman.

7th November 2010, 11:15	#162 (permalink)
Raees Banned Join Date: May 2009 Location: Against criticism a man can neither protest nor defend himself; he must act in spite of it, and then it will gradually yield to him. Posts: 9,715	Yep same god Marcus, seeing as Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all collectively known as the Abrahamic faiths. No the God has been the same, the intepretation of his messages and who constitutes a prophet, is what distinguishes the three.

7th November 2010, 11:31	#165 (permalink)
MikeUpNorth Wobbles like a massive pair of tits Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,227	Apes have one wikipedia page (like God), but also individual ones for chimps and orangutans (like Allah and Yahwee).

7th November 2010, 11:55	#172 (permalink)
MikeUpNorth Wobbles like a massive pair of tits Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,227	You know I'm right. Now, how about doing a little doordings...

7th November 2010, 11:55	#173 (permalink)
Spoony Youngblood Wants to be more like Top Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: RIP Sydney Youngblood, who died in a tragic go-karting accident in 2007. RIP my cat 2001-09. iRIP Steve Cunting Jobs Posts: 42,368	It's clearly the same god. If anything I'd say Christians worship the same deity slightly differently to Muslims and Jews. I mean the trinity...technically that's not even a belief in one God. Suppose you can thank the Romans for that.

7th November 2010, 11:59	#174 (permalink)
MikeUpNorth Wobbles like a massive pair of tits Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,227	Mockney, Spoony... I know you understand how much of the Christian story is influenced (i.e. plagiarised) from previous gods of other cultures, are you also claiming that those are the same god?

7th November 2010, 12:17	#178 (permalink)
Spoony Youngblood Wants to be more like Top Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: RIP Sydney Youngblood, who died in a tragic go-karting accident in 2007. RIP my cat 2001-09. iRIP Steve Cunting Jobs Posts: 42,368	That said, I think your Batman analogy is probably correct, but that's because man invented God. Unless he shows himself and say 'Hi', there will always be slight variations. The God of the Abrahamic religions is a kin to a Victorian father. He's the same god...virtually worshipped in the same way. But as I said, ask people of the three faiths...they'll tell you they worship the same God the Jews worship.

7th November 2010, 12:32	#185 (permalink)
MikeUpNorth Wobbles like a massive pair of tits Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,227	I'm so glad you lot don't run patent law. With the amount of stuff you class as 'the same', there'd be no possibility for new invention.

7th November 2010, 12:32	#186 (permalink)
Plechazunga Phones, soup, paint, chairs and computers are troubling. Join Date: May 2003 Location: Where Albert Stubbins scored a diving header Posts: 47,728	There are at least three quite easily distinguishable Gods in Genesis alone, and another one turns up in Deuteronomy.

7th November 2010, 12:37	#187 (permalink)
Spoony Youngblood Wants to be more like Top Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: RIP Sydney Youngblood, who died in a tragic go-karting accident in 2007. RIP my cat 2001-09. iRIP Steve Cunting Jobs Posts: 42,368	YHWH, Elohim and some other bloke?

7th November 2010, 12:40	#188 (permalink)
SiYuan Cafe Grandmaster 2008 Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Where Crouch is a Midget. Posts: 8,294	How did a fairly good discussion about the Big bang turn into a contention over the status of an monotheistic Abrahamic god?

7th November 2010, 12:56	#190 (permalink)
Adzzz Astrophysical Genius Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Don't Put My Swag on a Pedestal, I'll leave you like Owen Hargreaves at a Medical, passing me ain't credible Posts: 21,956	Don't forget Redegast, Valor although the Valar aren't actually gods they just have the power of Arda. These so called Eldar formed these names from the Sindarin language.

7th November 2010, 13:00	#192 (permalink)
SiYuan Cafe Grandmaster 2008 Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Where Crouch is a Midget. Posts: 8,294	You guys left out the epic god of all time.

7th November 2010, 13:01	#193 (permalink)
Adzzz Astrophysical Genius Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Don't Put My Swag on a Pedestal, I'll leave you like Owen Hargreaves at a Medical, passing me ain't credible Posts: 21,956	Radegast, Redigast, he can't make his mind up either. Have faith.

7th November 2010, 13:12	#195 (permalink)
Plechazunga Phones, soup, paint, chairs and computers are troubling. Join Date: May 2003 Location: Where Albert Stubbins scored a diving header Posts: 47,728	No, and in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you got struck down with some horrible plague for doing so... probably AIDS

7th November 2010, 13:17	#196 (permalink)
Adzzz Astrophysical Genius Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Don't Put My Swag on a Pedestal, I'll leave you like Owen Hargreaves at a Medical, passing me ain't credible Posts: 21,956	Eru Illuvatar is the name they evidently don't like to type, I type it freely, with no fear.

7th November 2010, 13:18	#197 (permalink)
Spoony Youngblood Wants to be more like Top Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: RIP Sydney Youngblood, who died in a tragic go-karting accident in 2007. RIP my cat 2001-09. iRIP Steve Cunting Jobs Posts: 42,368	Forgive me, Hashem.

7th November 2010, 13:22	#198 (permalink)
Adzzz Astrophysical Genius Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Don't Put My Swag on a Pedestal, I'll leave you like Owen Hargreaves at a Medical, passing me ain't credible Posts: 21,956	Stone him!

7th November 2010, 13:28	#199 (permalink)
SiYuan Cafe Grandmaster 2008 Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Where Crouch is a Midget. Posts: 8,294	Give him jew-aids.

7th November 2010, 13:33	#200 (permalink)
Adzzz Astrophysical Genius Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Don't Put My Swag on a Pedestal, I'll leave you like Owen Hargreaves at a Medical, passing me ain't credible Posts: 21,956	Well this thread is now suitably off-topic. Much like the Big Bang in itself, it started off a little like this thread (normative discussion) only to descend into chaos (the universe) it's fairly amazing that this thread in of itself is a microcosm of the universe and it's existence at large. Think about that.