Boy or Girl - we're not telling you!!!!

K Stand Knut

What on earth do people make of this.

The story of 'The Infant' - Boy or girl? The parents who refused to say for FIVE years finally reveal sex of their 'gender-neutral' child | Mail Online

I find this very, very bizarre indeed. As much as I am all for kids expressing themselves at an early age and making their own decisions as they get older, I also think that they need to know their is a difference between genders.

The most frustrating thing in that article is the couple's claim that they didn't want to put their child into a category but unfortunately this is impossible with some things, one of them being the gender of your children. Unfortunately, they are EITHER a boy OR a girl and that is part of nature.

Pair of fuckwits if you ask me, and they are opening a can of worms with how their child is going to grow up if they continue this charade.

PJ

Fuck me her husband must be whipped.

K Stand Knut

Or as completely barking as she is.

Hectic

Overly elaborate way to deal with wanting a daughter. Top marks for originality, bad scores on morality.

Smores

Absolutely ridiculous. I hate things like this when parents try to force their warped views onto their children.

I can understand their viewpoint but to take it to such extremes and make your child a social oddity just isn't right.

K Stand Knut

Reminds me of the lad in 'About a Boy'!!!

Someone told me that he got bullied in the film, I have never seen it

Peasplease

By keeping the gender a secret for so long they've turned the kids gender into a big deal - the opposite of what they were after.

Though I get the impression with this couple that they're doing this to make a statement as much they're doing it for their childs sake. They probably have fuck all else going on in their lives so deluded themselves into thinking this is a proper cause to make themselves feel significant.

Damien1990

Yep. It does seem that they're pushing him towards a female gender even though they say they're not.

This quote from another article for example:

Couple Finally Reveals Child's Gender, Five Years After Birth | Parenting - Yahoo! Shine

Why are they big no-no's? They say that they want him to be gender neutral and express himself which is OK to an extent, yet they then say he can't wear certain clothes as they're "hyper-masculine", but don't mind him wearing things that are hyper-feminine.

PJ

She's a fucking nut case. Hopefully the kid will escape unscathed.

Mick1991

Asshole parents. Can you imagine what she has been tellin' that kid?

Stookie

They remind me of the Modern parents from Viz, I cant stand people like this.

PJ

And that really is the crux of this "experiment". Poor kid.

cinc

He will hate them with passion, and rightly so.

rcoobc

To be entirely fair to them, I'm sure there is a point in there somewhere about gender differences and equality and how if you raise a girl as a boy then for all purposes she can do everything a boy can do apart from get a girl pregnant, and visa versa.

But yes, they are playing with the destruction of the child's life. You just have to hope no lasting damage has been done and the child won't be bullied.

K Stand Knut

This WILL happen. Jesus, school years are harsh at the best of time and kids have been bullied / taunted for much, much less including things that they can do nothing about, i.e. being too tall (believe me I know), wearing specs, not being as clever as some people as just a few examples.

This attitude towards their own kid would be wholly acceptable if he was making the decisions for himself but at the end of the day he is dressed on a daily basis by his parents at his age and therefore they are the cause for any thing that is said about their 'infant'.

I will be very interested to see how his life pans out and what he is like at the age of 15 - I would imagine that he could turn out to be a very confused individual if he is brought up to think that people do not differ and all boys and girls are the same

dogrob

Being honest people like this don't deserve to have children, regardless of what they think a child needs to be able to grow up normally not in some bubble created by there parents who in some misguided belief think that there child should not have gender until a certain age, dressing up or playing with dolls etc isn't that much of a problem as most kids at that age don't know any better when playing with dolls or Lego and those who force a gender on child such as you do this, you do that your a boy are no better than these parents.

rcoobc

By the way I reckon the child will certainly readjust if they start treating him as a boy from now on. He is 5, there is no difference between a boy and a girl when your that young, only what society puts on themselves which I imagine is the point they are trying to make.

Plenty of girls play for boys football teams under the age of 11 (I think that is the cut off).

niMic

I am almost certain that is not correct. Boys and girls are.. boys and girls. They are different, and their brains are different.

rcoobc

Girls overheat when they learn to read you mean?

How are they different before 5? I'm not talking about small differences in hormone levels, there is no difference between them before the age of 5. If you don't teach them to only play with their own sex, then boys will happily behave as girls and visa versa. Boys will play with dolls and dress up, girls will play football and on swings.

They haven't damaged this boy... yet.

PJ

Well yes, if his parents fucked off and 2 sensible people were to raise him, but it's patently obvious that even though the "big reveal" has happened, there is still no way his parents are going to let him act like a normal boy. Can you really see her taking him to football practice?

Smores

There's a huge difference even at 2/3 never mind 5, some girls will play physical games and some boys will play with dolls but young lads have a lot more energy and they're much more physical in playing. Some aspects are learnt through the environment (pink/blue etc) but the differences in development account for a lot of gender roles. They build their gender identity and relate to parents really early as well, who knows who that kid relates to, the kooky mother or the whipped dad?!?

rcoobc

Well let me put it like this, there are kids who breastfeed past 5, that does far more damage than having a boy live in a pink bedroom. Honestly there is nothing wrong with treating boys and girls the same at a young age. Nothing at all.

PJ

Well you don't need to beat a kid when he looks at his sister's barbie, but it really really looks as though this kid is going to be prevented from living like a normal boy til he tells them both to fuck off. Or his dad grows a pair.

Raven Blade

One of the most stupid stories i've ever come across. They say they want to raise their child as gender neutral but they are unknowlingly influencing him by making him wear girly pink dresses and play with barbies.

The abuse he's gonna get at school is all their own fault now. He's a boy, so raise him to be a man.

Man Utd Mrs

Yeah, he gets bullied. He's an odd-bod but his mother is well meaning, I suppose. Good film

surf

You can't choose your gender so it's important for people to be comfortable with whatever they happen to be. Parents like these don't really help their children to understand that human biology is not gender neutral.

spinoza

No, this isn't true, though admittedly I only have a sample size of one.

My boy simply isn't interested in dolls, dress up or whatever, despite my wife's best efforts. He's always liked cars, animals, football, and climbing around where he shouldn't be. About the only "girly" things he likes are cooking and cleaning - because he associates those with nice things to eat and playing with interesting chemicals. And probably also because Dad does a fair share of that.

Point is though, I never forced or influenced him to play with what he likes. He's got a couple of dolls and doll houses, looked at them once, and promptly discarded. He's 2 now, hasn't touched a doll for 18 months.

Eyepopper

Kids become aware of their gender and start to differentiate themselves from about 3 years of age..... ever seen little 4 year old boys running round wanting to show everyone their willy? Its pretty natural. Keeping the child 'gender neutral' inhibits this natural development.

Other than that the parents appear to be idiots. They want to raise him without the bias associated with gender do they? I dont see them having much problem raising him with the bias of being white and middle class do you?

SharkyMcShark

I think a lot of people in this thread need to understand the difference between gender and sex

Eyepopper

3 years of age is the first point at which the child starts to notice they are a different sex and as a result begins to adopt gender based characteristics.

Is part of the gender role determined by societal expectations? Yes, of course, the flawed logic here is that everything determined by societal expectation is negative.

Society forms part of the system we exist within, if you dont want to exist within that system fine, but I find it a bit hypocritical and stupid to reject one aspect of it on behalf of your child but to accept others, particularly when aspects are interrelated.

For example, rearing your child 'gender neutral' if you live in the woods, away from society where the child doesn't have to deal with the negative connotations - fine. Rearing your child as 'gender neutral' because you reject societal expectations while living a white middle class existence where societal expectations are a part of life - not fine.

I guess wait and see how much of a full functioning adult this child becomes.

rcoobc

These parents are obviously idiots, but I don't see it giving long term harm up to the age of 5. Wetting the bed until the late childhood is the biggest factor in deranged killers isn't it? That's something you have to work around.

Spinoza you say your child has already started liking boys stuff more than anything else? Great there is nothing wrong with that, maybe you influenced him maybe you didn't, it doesn't matter. Its healthy and normal. These parents say they didn't influence their child and that he put those clothes on because it was fun. Honestly, there is nothing wrong with that either. My 6 year old sister loves to play football (although she detests watching it). She loves running around and getting dirty in the mud. Nothing wrong with that either. Its perfectly normal and healthy. She also loves puzzles and tv which is very gender neutral itself.

A child thrusting its penis out at people isn't something they are likely inhibiting; well maybe they are eyepopper, maybe whenever he did it they spanked him, but I doubt it. They are just letting (or if they aren't they should be just letting) him choose and do what he wants to do. Not telling anyone is just their way of not letting outside influences control his development.

By the way I disagree with, Dr Harold Koplewicz from that article

Of course we are not a blank state, but boys can have "girls" brains, and girls can have "boys" brains. Either can be right handed or left handed, either can be linguistic, artistic, sporty, etc. Maybe one sex is more likely to have those characteristics, that type of brain, but its not exclusive. Just like how they find "the fat gene" (which 90% of people have, but if you dont have it you are likely to be skinny), the fast twitch gene (which 90% of people have but almost all sprinters have it) this isn't properly understood. Or maybe I don't know what I am talking about and the Daily Mail got hold of an expert.

• Are the parents idiots? Yes completely.
• Are the parents doing a good thing for their child? No they are experimenting on him, if he gets bullied over this they have done lasting harm for no reason, the same as giving a child a stupid name.
• Are the parents putting their own beliefs onto the child? Yes completely.

Do they have a point? That depends. Maybe we discover our gender age 1-5 and not being able to see the difference will fuck him up. Maybe they will have created a stable child who is less prone to treat women like crap. Maybe they will have done absolutely nothing to him in terms of long term consequences.

Show me a study where keeping a child up to 5 gender neutral harms the baby and I will believe it, but until then I don't. It's a 5 year old, it may discover it's gender then but I don't believe it understands it. You mention a child thrusting its penis out but I imagine that is because:

1. Its learning about social norms and acceptable behaviour and boundaries.
2. If it was a gender thing, they wouldnt do the same with their bottoms, but children of both genders do (and I believe that is far more common).

Some Boys will play with Girls freely and exclusively at a young age, and some Girls will do the same with Boys. There was a girl at my Primary School that I often kept forgetting she was a girl long after I left, she played on my local football team (year below), she joined in all the boys activities and never played with the girls. I have no idea if she is more girly today, but it cannot be exclusive.

PJ

Rcoobc, you're basing your argument on the frankly unreasonable assumption that a cut off has been reached and this idiot will now let him be a boy. She clearly won't.

rcoobc

My very first post said that she is clearly going to fuck this kid up.. then I said that the kid is probably fine right of now, which I believe is what people had a problem with.

PJ

And I'm basing mine on the assumption I'd read everything correctly

Eyepopper

Nothing wrong with it at all, but who chose the clothes he got to choose from? Did they take him to the shops and see what he was most drawn to? Or did they provide them, and if they provided them surely thats indirect influence (if we're talking about allowing the child to live in a purely experiential manner).

Why a pink tutu and not a green, blue, purple etc etc one? Because pink is a 'girls' colour? So are they not bowing to gender bias in all sorts of ways they aren't even considering.

No ones talking about thrusting or spanking, you said there's no difference between a 3 year old male or a 3 year old female, there is, there's quite a difference.

Its the age at which the child notices themselves and becomes self aware, its when they realise that not everyone is the same. Its here that a basis is put down for self concept and interpersonal relationships.


Again, no ones talking about thrusting anything, its about fascination and early self awareness. Freud called it psychosexual development, and in his theory gender (gender, not sex) comes into play around 3-6 years of age (once the child has mastered the art of eating and shitting), as the child becomes aware f their sex and begins to understand their gender.

Gender in turn has an influence over the nature of relationships with significant others and impacts on your sense of self.

Interfering, or just ignoring that could leave the child uncertain both about themselves and their role.

You're asking for studies to prove that gender neutrality causes no harm but then 'imagining' the reasons behind certain behaviour, and to address your points..

1. Learning about social norms and boundaries? At 3? Have you ever seen a 3 year old kid throw a tantrum in a supermarket? They aren't even fully self aware never mind having the cognitive ability to conceptualise social norms or boundaries. They are ego driven, "I want a bar of chocolate - waaaaaa", "look at this, do you have one?"

2. I dont agree at all that theres a phenomenon of kids running round showing their bottoms, not in my experience and certainly not in proportion to the number of kids who are fond of sticking their hands in their pants or getting their undercarriage out to show the world.

Overall, of course there's nothing wrong with allowing your child to experiment and experience things and laying down strict gender based guidelines for a 3-5 year old would be ridiculous but no more ridiculous than ignoring and failing to explain when the child becomes aware of their sex and looks for a meaning behind it.

rcoobc

I dont understand EP, I know of two children first hand who "chased their siblings around the room" with their bottoms. When I said there is no difference between a 3 year old boy and girl, I dont mean "physically" I mean "In what they do, and learn, and play". Maybe one is curious in different ways but that wont be stopped by his parents giving them a variety of clothes.

I do agree about the self awareness, I remember seeing a small girl being exposed to nudity on a beach, and she stared at the man in question for several minutes before their parents tilted her head up. But the boy will know he has a penis, he may not know if he is a boy or a girl, (which is very messed up), but he will understand there is a difference.

rcoobc

If there was damaging effects by having a child as gender neutral up to the age of 5, then in my mind a girl who only has interaction with boys (such as in a tribe, or a remote community, or perhaps a orphanage of some kind) and a boy who only has interaction with girls (again similar situation) would surely be equally mucked up, and I just don't believe they would be.

Eyepopper

How will he understand there's a difference if its not explained to him and he cant identify with anything? And if thats the case, it will impact on his self awareness and relationship with the world.

We can only conceptualise our'self' in relation to an'other'... we see someone else and we instinctively want to categorise ourselves by identifying with them, if we're not allowed and helped to do this there is scope for confusion.

Eyepopper

You can be raised among other genders and still develop a strong sense of self with the help of those around you. Thats part of the point, this kids parents are simply ignoring part of their function.

That said anecdotally girls that grow up as only sisters to large numbers of brothers often tend to be tomboys and guys that grow up with relevantly dominant female influence often end up effeminate.

rcoobc

One more question, if we assume you are correct about the 3-6 self identity stage, if there was another characteristic (colour under apartheid/segregation/slavery, or having a blue tattoo vs a red tattoo if such a thing where possible) and all the people of different characteristics acted slightly differently and treated each other differently, and the children of those people where made to play in different areas, but interact apart from that...

Would there be long term consequences from the age of 3. Would a 3 year old learn to define by race quickly, for good or ill?