The 'EDL'

ralphie88

Were peddling their race-hate in Manchester yesterday unfortunately. The confused burberry-loving buffoons. The good news was that anti-racism protesters outnumbered them two-to-one and they had to be bussed out from Piccadilly before things got nasty.

Twisted_Woody

What the hell is the EDL?

Adzzz

The UAF aren't much better, just fascists claiming they aren't. Technically a small militant army.

esmufc12

Don't forget the JK4.

gambit28

Did they reclaim England yesterday? Wasn't it the day of reckoning?

FlawlessThaw

Would have thought Manchester would have been one of the worst places to peddle the racist shit particularly near Piccadily. Should have stuck to the inbreds in Burnley

Rood

The English Defence League - a relatively new organisation from what I understand, not really sure who is behind them or what the point in their existence is though.

good to hear that they were sent packing in Manchester!

Nick 0208 Ldn

Well technically i think it's the English and Welsh Defence League.

Their raison d'etre seems to be to tour towns and cities supposedly protesting against extremist Islam. Although i would have thought that if they wish to combat such there are more effective ways [inclusive ones]. These rallies strike me as a sham.

The notion of turn up at a homecoming parade in support of a battalion if you feel that planned protest by a radical group on the day was out of order is one thing, but we've gone well beyond that now and it wasn't that simple or innocent at the time i'd imagine].

I don't see what the point is.

Now that being said, the level of publicity of these events would be far less if the UAF didn't join battle so readily.

EZee

i think they are going to make a lot of trouble around election time and try and intimidate as many people as possible...

i am wondering if they will adopt a uniform... say brown shirts?

Nick 0208 Ldn

Or they and the BNP might end up getting in a scrap come election time. We can live with that.

ralphie88

Oh, and I suppose you actually have some knowledge of this do you? Have you actually attended any UAF event? Or are you just talking shit from a position of complete ignorance?

The most bother you're likely to see at a UAF protest is if the lentil soup isn't organic enough.

CircusMonkey

They have their own uniform it for sale via Ebay. Ive heard so many what i thought were "rational" people talking about "what a good idea the EDL was" and "its not racist" "theres just too many immigrants here now".

Im not over reacting and i dont believe its the rebirth of the third Reich. But were people acknowledge the BNP are nazi spastics, people tend to think this EDL is a non violent pro English party. And theres nothing wrong with that.

I find it distasteful and rather nazi-ish.

Team Brian GB

Indeed, there is certainly one hell of a difference between the likes of the BNP and EDL on one hand and then UKIP and the English Democrats on the other.

What I find disturbing though, always have done and have been thinking about since reading it in the Sunday Mail this morning, is how there are BNP members who go about their incredible patriotism yet they profess a deference to Adolf Hitler, how does that work?!! How can you be patriotic about a country and her history and culture on one hand and then support a man who killed 100,000 of her civilians by bombing our cities to distruction night after night for five years, left well over a million homeless in London alone, and almost starved the population in what constituted the most dangerous and distructive era in British history? How stupid do you have to be to think of yourself as patriotic even though you idolise Hitler??

Sir A1ex

Right, and the EDL are just Muslims claiming they aren't.

Did you get down there then Ralphie? Didn't sound like it got all that messy from what I heard... sounds like the nazis had the sense to realise they were heavily outnumbered and slip away fairly quietly?

Count Duckula

Being outnumbered shouldn't stop them expressing their views. I despise what they believe, but the mark of a free society is that they're allowed to believe it.

Sir A1ex

I loved this from the Birmingham version, btw:

"Police made them hold their protest in an underpass at Lancaster Circus, where no-one could see them."

...unusually smart policing that. "Yes, of course ypu can have your protest, it's a free country. Just one thing though..."

Sir A1ex

And they were allowed to. While lots more people simultaneously exercised their right to make it clear where they could stick their horrible views.

What are these views anyway? That a minority of the population shouldn't be free to practice their religion? For me, it crosses the line of where you can still appeal to free speach, when your message is that it should be denied to others.

MikeUpNorth

Being tolerant of the intolerant is what a free society entails though. Their views are abhorrent but they should be free to express them. And well done to all those out there in the counter demonstration letting them know they're in a minority, wish I could have joined you.

Sultan

As a Muslim reading opinions of posters in this thread makes me feel proud to be living in this country.

x42bn6

The beauty of free speech is that you get to hear things you don't want to hear.

Sadly.

Wibble

And opponents are allowed to shout them down.

Wibble

I like the Australian Aboriginal way of showing contempt. Stand and turn your back in silence. This tactic humiliated John Howard a few years ago.

ralphie88

Yeah a few of us went down there. The anti-fascists out-numbered them two-to-one which was the main thing. The EDL were just a bunch of England fans - all burberry caps and chants of "No Surrender to the IRA" and a few anti-Muslim banners. The police marched them all up to Victoria away from the UAF. United apparently had a mob on their way up to have a pop but they'd been bussed out of Mancs by then.

Wibble

"No surrender to the IRA"? Bit behind the times then aren't they?

They will be protesting against decimalisation next.

Moriarty

Hang on a minute. the INLA announced that it was officially renouncing violence yesterday. Was this in fear of the EDL? I think we should be told.

Adzzz

I'm sorry didn't the UAF violently charge the EDL at somepoint?

Great way to fight democratic free speech is that, chase them with sticks and bricks.

PJ

Fromwhat I have heard. The UAF are masters of cafe white text.

The very concept of it being anti-fascist to censor and disallow opinion boggles the mind.

Sir A1ex

This is true (well, the first two - the 3rd is just a bit silly, but I'll include it anyway), but there have to be (and are) limits - this is why we have laws on inciting racial hatred etc.

You have to weigh up the right to express an outrageous and abhorent opinion against the right to live and work in peace and safety, without fear of persecution. Different people's rights can and do conflict with each other, and all rights are not equal.

It's a question of judging each situation and where to draw the line. While by no means perfect, the laws we have are a reasonable stab at doing this. In the case of the EDL, I'm sure the majority are careful to stay on just the right side of the law, and those that don't are generally carted off in a meat-wagon.
However, you won't catch me condemning anybody who turns up to oppose them, even if they get a bit lively about it. Again, it's a question of circumstance and degree - I doubt many here are too upset by people throwing eggs at Nick Griffin, whereas if Ralphie had gone along tooled up and finished a couple of the EDL scummers off, I'd agree that he'd gone too far, to put it mildly.

It's easy to take the "free speech at all costs" line with a group like the EDL that are currently not seen as a threat, and more of a bit of a joke, but racist fascist parties can and have run countries and put their discpicable beliefs into practice.
If, for example, the BNP build on their recent successes and start to become a serious contender for running the country, at what point does it become desirable that their views are silenced?
If that example is not extreme enough for your tastes, then ask yourself what you would have done (admittedly, with the benefit of hindsight if required) had you been living in Germany in the 1920-30s and were somehow in a position to ensure that the message of the nazi party went unheard?

ralphie88

There was a bit of pushing and shoving with the police. "Sticks and bricks"? No, you are mistaken. My girlfriend considered ramming her pram into one of the Seig Heilers, but thought she'd better not as it might wake the baby.

ralphie88

At what point did the UAF attempt to censor opinion?

Laphroaig

Good post, Dan. Free speech isn't the end all and be all of our societies, and you can not bring it up as a trump as if it is the one principle that should always guide our actions. Free speech is something we aspire to because it is a part of what constitute the society as we wish to have it. Free speech is therefore just one of more compononents of what we value and we need to do some serious thinking about which principles are more pressing in different situations, not just try to view every situation in the light of one single simple concept.

Sir A1ex

Very eloquently put, Laphroaig.

Twisted_Woody

This lot sound charming....

Count Duckula

My point was aimed at Ralphie, who seemed to take great pride in the fact that the threat of violence meant these people had to leave:

And then A1Dan:

Which implies that if they hadn't slipped away quietly there would have been trouble; ie, the protestors demonstrating against would have caused things to "get messy". The EDL left before that could happen.

I'll clarify again - I abhorr their views. And I also take great pride that greater numbers of people can turn up to shout them down in the name of equality and anti-bigotry. But for those others to use the threat of violence to stop the bigots, well, in my book once they start doing that then they're treading a fine line themselves.

ralphie88

Actually things would have been likely to get messy due to a large contingent of United gathering not far away.

Sir A1ex

A fine line, maybe. But as I've said, you won't catch me shedding any tears if a couple of nazi skinheadsget a boot up the arse... there's a lot of worse things go on every day.
It's like the annoying mouthy twat in the pub who finally gets a smack in the gob - you may disapprove of violence yourself, but you can't honestly say you're disappointed to see it happen...

Dresilved

You can't compare what happened then to now. Germany was still heavily embargoed during this time period, unemployment was 50% and had been since the end of the WWI. Poverty was extreme in a country that was used to relative wealth with no end in sight. War reparations, territorial partitions and mass ethnic resettlements imposed by the treaty of Versailles threw Germany into a period of hyper-inflation and left the country politically and economically crippled, as well as extremely bitter especially at France who were benefitting most from this situation, and it was the everyday Joe public who were the ones paying for this.

Hitler didn't immediately show his cards, they weren't the Nazi party at first they were German workers party, more like a trade union type thing, he outlined a plan for rebuilding the countries infrastructure and creating jobs for everyone and for producing a car (VW beetle) that would be affordable for every citizen of its country (volks-wagen = folks wagon), Hitler was accepted at first not for his political notions but for his answers to the worsening economic situation..... he was received with open arms at first because of the promises he was making and at first fulfilling.

The first ones to realize Hitlers true intentions were the intellectuals, and they were quickly silenced during the night of the long knives when he officially took control. Most people have the notion that Hitler came to power with his fascist, racist, anti-Semitic rhetoric, thats not true, he came with answers for people who badly needed what he was selling and followed that up with very quick solutions and had the country on an upward trajectory very very quickly while at the same time developing a strong sense of nationalism, he was their messiah, it took a while before they realized they had been duped, by then he had total control with his SS military wing.

People are very quick to judge the German people as to their acceptance of Hitler. What happened then was was a result of an extreme situation, supporting fascism today is more to do with ignorance and lack of education, its unfair to compare them, they are not comporable

cw1984

Just seen a video posted on Facebook. I love how they claim to be a non-racist organisation but march down the streets chanting "Fuck off back home". Hmmm.

green demon

Hitler was preaching anti-semitism right from the start. No-one, least of all the Jews, probably not even Hitler himself at that point, realised what was to come. But everybody knew that anti-semitism was one of the main thrusts of Nazism.

And to put you right about the Night of the Long Knives, they were far from intellectual those who were murdered - they were the Nazi's own Brown Shirts (SA) murdered by the SS. However your point about the intellectuals is still fair, although some supported the Nazis' evil aims, there were those who opposed them violently.

Mockney

He's right about the incomparable circumstances though....Hitlers rise was facilitated by Germany's unique social and economic state at the time. Hitler wasn't lauded on the back of his views, he was lauded for the answers he provided in a very tough time for the German people...Your average man in the street loved him, and with good reason. Your average man in the street does not love the EDL or the BNP...and their intentions are far clearer, and far more of a USP than Hitlers were (which were more of a tag-on at the time) Comparing any cause of action here to 30s Germany is very very contentious....and a bit unfair. To say "we must stop them lest we end up like Nazi Germany" is complete bollocks, it couldn't happen bar something catastrophic happening to the country...And add the fact that Nazi Germany did exist, means people will be far more opposed to it should it ever look like happening.