The 'EDL'

Sir A1ex

I'm not saying it is, but it illustrates the point that freedom of speech is not and should not be absolute, in some cases it is for the greater good to shut people up.

Not been to Stoke or Burnley recently?

That's not what I said though, is it?
As I say, it was purely illustrating the concept, though you may be being a bit complacent if you think that the following statement is equally ridiculous:
"we must stop them lest we end up with an increase in racial tension and a reversal in British Muslim's hard earned status as equal citizens with equal opportunities alongn with a lack of protection for the British people to adhere to and practice whatever beliefes they hold."
Nobody's predicting another holocaust, but do you honestly not think that, if these people were to gain political influence, there would be no negative effect on minorities and society as a whole?

VivaRonaldo7

I know a member of the EDL.

Sir A1ex

There we go then. Nice bloke?

VivaRonaldo7

The sort who got dragged into it all so to speak. Just randomly starts spouting off about it.

Sir A1ex

Bit of a tit then?

VivaRonaldo7

Yep.

Sir A1ex

interesting article on who the EDL are

Count Duckula

But who decides what's for the "greater good"? You? Those people believe that what they're trying to achieve is for the "greater good". They don't do it thinking, "y'know, this will fuck things up, but what the hell".

You can't start censoring people because then you're on a very slippery slope. So now you want to stop these people campaigning their hate. That's fine, but then some anti-war protestors set up shop somewhere and the government starts to use its newfound power to keep them quiet. Maybe then the tories get in, bring back fox hunting, people start protesting about that. Sorry, mates, we're not having that - off you go.

No matter what people are saying you cannot stop them saying or believing it. You just have to trust that other people won't be stupid or ignorant enough to join them; or, do as the UAF did and turn up in even greater numbers to show them they won't be convincing anyone. But once you start getting violent, or even just preventing them from espousing their views, you begin treading very dangerous territory.

ralphie88

Partially agree with that. But Freedom of Expression is not an absolute and inalienable human right (as is, for example, the right not to be tortured). It always has to be balanced against other rights - so the right to privacy, the right to security (for muslims who want to be able to walk the streets of Manchester on a Saturday afternoon in safety), and also other established laws (e.g. defamation, race hate, public order).

Censorship is therefore actually necessary in many situations, because it is the lesser of two evils.

That said, in this case I think the GMP were right to let the protest go ahead, at least as long as the EDL can keep a lid on their Nazi element so long as the protest remained heavily regulated.

Sultan

Yet the simple fact is that both in Britain and in America, as in every other Western democracy, we live in the midst of censorship. Our ‘free society’ turns out, on inspection, to be a society where – for good or ill – practically every medium of expression other than the novel is subject to elaborate restrictions; where every programme we watch on television has been vetted by the guardians of public decency; where every film we see has been censored; where truly erotic works of art can scarcely be seen in any public gallery, and where every non-artistic picture ever published or displayed is subject to rigorous obscenity laws. These laws express, in their selective prohibitions and permissions, a seemingly profound antipathy to sexual love and a deep and almost insane horror of some of the most ordinary parts of the human body, particularly when these are conjoined in some of the most ordinary ways.

What is perhaps even more important than all these examples of public censorship, however, are the kinds of censorship we exercise upon ourselves. In the dark safety of the theatre of our own imagination we are permanently able, should we so desire, to watch demonstrations of sexual affection and erotic largesse so extraordinary, they could not be shown in any cinema. Simultaneously we are able to view and participate in scenes of passion and emotional generosity more reckless than any novelist would dare create. Yet for the most part it is probably true to say that we do not make much use of this extraordinary resource. For most of the time the theatre of our imagination remains locked – empty, unvisited, and unloved.

In our private, as in our public lives, far from being free from censorship, we are in almost permanent thrall to it. Unable to face up to this fact, however, we have developed an elaborate self-congratulatory myth of freedom. In the midst of repression we celebrate freedom; from the depths of our own puritanism we proclaim liberation.

Richard Webster.net

Count Duckula

That's just a bloke whinging about there not being enough tits on television, Sults.

MikeUpNorth

True.

Sir A1ex

Really? So it would make no difference if they were noisily campaigning in favour of genocide, or inciting people to rape and torture a spcific minority?
What about the very terrorists these people use as an excuse for their hatred? Should they be allowed to freely and openly advocate attrocities?

You can start censoring people, and every nation on earth already does. There does need to be a line drawn, and while I don't claim to be in any position to have that responsibilty, I'm allowed to voice my opinion on where it should be.

Sir A1ex

Don't be so immature.

It's clearly fanny he wants to see more of.

x42bn6

I believe there are laws against inciting violence, or something similar - so you are limited to what you can say, through some "balancing" as ralphie has mentioned previously.

In fact, if you go down the street shouting that you are going to murder someone or a specific race/nationality/gender/etc., you would get pulled up and quite rightly so.

Sir A1ex

Exactly.

Sultan

We mostly assume free speech, freedom of action are inherently good. However as some have pointed out in above posts it's not always the case - in fact to believe that absolute freedoms is always beneficial is clearly wrong and would most likely mean an end of a stable, just and fair society.

Mockney

No one who lives in stoke or burnley an be described as a normal person, let alone your average man in the street

I'm sure if they came to power they would try and enact that sort of thing...but I don't think people in our country in this day and age would stand for it....certainly within living memory of Nazi Germany

England was pretty racist in the 1930s & 40s....all be it ignorantly rather than maliciously. it's not now

Church o Choccy

The EDL are in Swansea tomorrow and Leeds at Hallowe'en. I'm gonna try and get along to the Leeds counter demo.

ralphie88

Leeds could well be messy with their reputation.

Moriarty

Where did these fuckers come from? I'd never even heard of the EDL until a month or so back. I had a look on 'Stormfront' to see what the geniuses on there had to say and the consensus is that the EDL is controlled by the government and the Jews. Fuck, and I thought I was paranoid.

At any rate, they need a good shoeing and I hope the good people of Leeds give them one.

Red_Jamie

Don't they make you proud to be English?

GloryHunter07

I googled UAF, i assume you are talking about University of Alaska Fairbanks in which case you are correct.


Your a tit

GloryHunter07

The funny thing is, most of those skin heads would be religious fanatics if they were born in a different country, just bored, stupid and impressionable bigots the lot of them.

By the way, anyone watched "this is england"? Good film, and very applicable to the current world.

ralphie88

Hehe.

Red_Jamie

That's one of the best points i've heard regarding this. You're dead right. It's alarmingly obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that most of these people have no affection to the cause and just want to turn up in a big gang and chant their ingurland chants for an hour.

Wembley Red

never thought of it that way, good point

sammsky1

I was going through their Facebook page trying to find out more about this bunch of thugs and came across the above video.






At first it made me laugh .... but then after thinking about it, I am quite disturbed ... I'd hoped that the EDL were really just a bunch of bored football hooligans with nowhere to fight anymore because they had had the stadiums taken away from them ... but after watching this video it made me think they actually believe in this as a 'cause'.

Out of interest, where did all the hooligans of yesteryear disappear to?

MJLD

Bunch of fucking spastics who believe they have a 'right' to have this country when it was pure chance they were born here. Not to mention the huge number of British-born Muslims they think should 'fuck off home'.

sammsky1

Im getting quite into this (ie finding out about who the EDL are).

Watch the video embedded within this Guardian article: English Defence League: Inside the violent world of Britain's new far right | UK news | The Guardian

Its very disconcerting .... I dont think this country has seen this sort of uprising since the sad bad old days of the National Front ...

My question is .... if one get get beyond the vile bile of a typical EDL member rant, do they actually have any justifiable grievances? Exactly what do they want and what would they consider as victory?

Or are they just a bunch of thick and bored Generation Y victims who would have been football hooligans in yesteryear? And are this lot fans of the England football team? Because, its because of people like this that many people like I feel uncomfortable about supporting the England team because I do not want to be any part of a movement like this.

Neutral

The irony of a turban wearing Sikh being a part of a racist English Defence League, and advocating Muslims being kicked out of England...

Sure buddy...once the muslims are gone, who do you think is next?

MikeUpNorth

The ones I have come across have pretty much just been hooligan scum looking for a fight, rather than having any real identifiable 'cause'. It's just racism, plain and simple - every country has them.

snootyjim

Don't think it's that ironic.

When I was at school a lot of the Sikh kids hated Muslims incessantly - and by comparison nearly all of the white kids couldn't care less.

Raoul

Its interesting to see these movements spring up in various European countries at a time when they're decreasing in the States.

Neutral

No I know sikhs hate muslims, I have Indian friends, who tell me about the animosity that exists in their homeland...but for a sikh in the UK to be advocating discriminating against muslims, without realizing, once the muslim bogeyman was out...who would be next?


no matter how 'evil' the US becomes, when it comes to integrating its immigrants, and making ousiders feel like they belong...NO ONE does it better.

sammsky1

Yes, I have noticed that in my recent trips to the US.

I was recently in a non-descript business suburb called Schaumburg near Chicago.

I was told that it housed had one of the largest mosques in the states and that there was total integration, acceptance and harmony within the region.

Made me rethink many assumptions about the way things were going in the US, which seems to be more progressive as opposed to more regressive in the UK.

rotherham_red

Its more because of the history. The Mughals in India persecuted the Guru's, and the hatred has largely stayed there since then. Fair enough, I suppose...

CassiusClaymore

Had a visit from these tossers in Leicester on Saturday.

SHUTTERED stores, boarded-up windows, padlocked pubs, deserted streets, coppers on almost every corner. Leicester in lock-down, nailed shut, its familiar features carved up by high metal fences and massed ranks of police at every turn.

Thousands of Leicester residents turned out yesterday in a display of unity and cohesion just 24 hours after protesters from other parts of the country tried to disrupt the city.

They really are a waste of fuckin taxes. Took the largest police force in the county for 25 years to keep them from the busy parts of the town centre and even then some managed to get away and create scenes like this







But of course, they're not racist.

That last video shows you all you need to know about this lot. Pathetic.

esmufc14

They really are despicable twats.

MJLD

This is why West Ham and Millwall fans shouldn't be allowed to reproduce.