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Old 13th January 2012, 10:33   #1 (permalink)
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FAO Hungarian caftards

What the feck is going on?

Somewhere in Europe

Spoiler
Somewhere in Europe

Kim Lane Scheppele

Lights are flashing red about Hungary.

Yesterday, the European Commission issued a stern warning to Hungary. In blunt language, the EU asserted that it “reserves the right to take any steps that it deems appropriate, namely the possibility of launching infringement procedures” against Hungary for violating the basic conditions of membership in the European Union. The Commission singled out the laws crushing the independence of the central bank, the judiciary and the ombudsman for data protection as the most egregious, but indicated that it was reviewing more laws as well.

The US has also indicated its serious displeasure with the course that Hungary has taken. The Secretary of State wrote a strong letter to the Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán just before the New Year and the US Ambassador to Hungary has pronounced herself to be “disappointed” with the government, so disappointed that she did not attend the gala celebration for the new constitution held at the magnificent Opera House on 2 January (with 30,000+ protestors demonstrating outside – see picture below).


Demonstration outside the Opera House, January 2, 2012. Protestors objected to the new constitution, which was being celebrated at a gala inside.

The markets have issued a judgment on Hungary as well. Last week, the forint reached an all-time low against the euro and Hungary was unable to sell short-term government bonds in the markets. Its 10-year bonds must promise a nearly 10% yield, unsustainable over the long haul. . After Europe showed yesterday that it was ready to pressure Hungary into complying with its demands, Hungary’s short-term bonds must now promise nearly the same yield as its long-term bonds, but that is an improvement over not being able to generate any acceptable bids for short-term debt at all. .

Hungary needs the EU, not just to keep providing the “cohesion funds” that constitute a little under 2% of its total GDP, but also to give the go-ahead to the IMF to provide the country with the standby loans it needs to avoid bankruptcy. US support is also crucial. And, as a country completely enmeshed in an international economy, Hungary needs the markets.

Hungary’s politics are killing its economy. But the Hungarian government insists that it is still a democratic country, somewhere in Europe.

The government has started to say in international venues that it is open to modifying the offending laws. . And this has started to calm the nervousness of the markets.

But, as usual, what Orbán says in English to foreigners is contradicted by what he says and does in Hungarian and at home. Few who have watched at close range as he has built up his party organization over the last 20 years believe that a few European threats will cause him to give up his long-term aims to stay in power for “25 years” as he has repeatedly promised. He has often invoked as his model the interwar right-wing Prime Minister Miklós Horthy who governed from 1920-1944. He apparently wants to beat Horthy’s record.

Orbán no doubt believes he has some wiggle room with the Europeans. Along with many observers, Orbán could reasonably doubt that Europe has the will to require Hungary to roll back its all-encompassing anti-democratic program. Even if Hungary changes its laws on the central bank, judiciary and data ombudsman, most of the autocratic structure that Orbán has built will remain in place.

Will Europe really have the stomach to require not only a change in the law on the judiciary, but also the reinstatement of all of the judges who have been fired? And would it do so in the face of a letter from the Hungarian Judges Association written on January 7, saying that all is fine with the judiciary in Hungary if only people will stop attacking it? (Never mind that the letter appeared after the law went into effect, so that now a Fidesz loyalist may demote any judge in the country upon her say-so alone.)

Will Europe require that Fidesz play nice with other political parties by including opposition members in crucial positions throughout the independent regulatory bodies? (Never mind that all of the opposition parties, including the Socialists [MSzp] are presently even more disliked than Fidesz and that the only party that has seen any uptick in its support of late has been the far-right Jobbik party.)

Will Europe make Fidesz roll back its appointments to the Constitutional Court and restore the ability of citizens to challenge laws in the abstract before the Court? (Never mind that major decisions of the Constitutional Court interpreting the old constitution have already been effectively overturned by the new constitution. Most recently, this includes a constitutional amendment that allows the public prosecutor to choose which judge hears each specific criminal case.)

Europe will have to do a lot more than demand small legal changes to reverse what has happened. The anti-democratic reforms have gone too far. This is a government that has passed nearly 400 major laws, changing virtually every aspect of government in Hungary. And all of those laws have all already gone into effect, so that Fidesz party control over all of Hungary’s political institutions is very nearly complete already. Right now, the EU is singling out three laws for revision. There are many more laws where those came from. And given that FIdesz has already managed to entrench its most loyal inner-circle members in positions of power across the government, most with very long terms of office, it can afford to roll back a few laws without seriously losing control. So fine – change a few laws!

Unfortunately, Europe does not have a lot of room for maneuver. Not only has FIdesz already consolidated its grip on the Hungarian political space, but there is not yet an effective opposition to engage Fidesz at home in restoring a democratic balance. Fidesz lives in a domestic environment in which the far-right Jobbik party has called for Hungary to withdraw from the EU. . Many of Orbán’s few remaining supporters no doubt think the same thing. If Europe pressures Hungary to make changes substantial enough to roll back what Orbán’s party has wrought, will Hungary even stay in the EU? Majorities of Hungarians no doubt want to remain European, but those aren’t the Hungarians that hold this government in place.

Is there an alternative for the majority of voters who say that they have no party for which they want to vote? Protests within the country are increasing, but so far they have no obvious political organization into which to channel their frustration. The only sign that a political organization may be forming to contest Fidesz domination is a manifesto from former Prime Minister Gordon Bajnai that explains one way forward. But, as is typical for any critic, Bajnai is already being savaged by the government-controlled media. Even before he came forward with this program, Bajnai was operating on the knife-edge of threat as his personal finances have come under repeated Fidesz scrutiny – part of an aggressive campaign to discredit anyone who might challenge Viktor Orbán. . Anyone who wades into the political space in Hungary can expect vilification in the media, false accusations and even not-so-veiled threats to any job or money they might have within the country. Hungarian politics is a bare-knuckled affair.

Will the Fidesz government succeed in convincing Europe that Hungary is still a European democracy so that it will get away simply changing a few laws? More about the defenses the government has been offering in my next post.
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Old 13th January 2012, 10:51   #2 (permalink)
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Cinc might know something about it.
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Old 13th January 2012, 11:11   #3 (permalink)
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Yeah, cinc, are you responsible for this shit?
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Old 13th January 2012, 11:28   #4 (permalink)
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I blame Ferenc Puskas
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Old 13th January 2012, 11:31   #5 (permalink)
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Yeah but you're biased
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Old 13th January 2012, 11:38   #6 (permalink)
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Maybe they're just hungary?
I'm so sorry
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Old 13th January 2012, 11:43   #7 (permalink)
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I like Hungary, but they appear to have ballsed up the whole political thing.
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Old 13th January 2012, 13:43   #8 (permalink)
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Yeah but you're biased
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Old 13th January 2012, 15:12   #9 (permalink)
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Basically what happened was that after the clusterfuck of Ferenc Gyurcsany, Fidesz got a huge majority, (68% of the house).

They are a dickish, powerhungry and heavyhanded bunch and they changed every law, including the constitution in sight. I really dont like them, would never vote for them, but I'm disgusted by the response of the western world.

What caused the reactions is that they went against multinational companies and now those are fighting back, punishing Hungary, so noone else gets silly ideas like taxing the Banks, allowing people by law to have a chance to prepay their loans (if they were in foreign currencies. In their economic policies they are kind of a "Occupy" style goverment. It doesnt help that the finance minister is a complete lunatic.

As for antidemocratic tendencies: the laws in themselves are not antidemocratic, but in result will make the system practically unchangable for goverments to come. During the constitutional reform they engraved the flat tax rate into the constitution, made a bunch of constitution like laws (that need the two-third of the house to change them). They argued that they (before the elections) said that if they gain the two-thirds of the house, will completely change the Hungary - and people still voted for them. Whats more, they would easily win the majority of the house even today.

The colonist behaviour of the west is shocking though, when Hillary Clinton writes a formal letter because the Scientologist and Baptist church (which she a member of) didnt recieve "church" taxstatus in the first round or that on a open tender a left wing radio didnt win a frequency(they had the most points based on content but couldnt pay enough for the lease (they offered about 100000 dollar/year for the frequency while the winner won it with three times as much) - than something very wrong.

I hope they will be out of the goverment in 2014, but I hope they will be out without outside influences.
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Old 13th January 2012, 15:39   #10 (permalink)
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Good article in the (I think it was the times) the other day on the Hungarian problem.
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Old 13th January 2012, 16:03   #11 (permalink)
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Good article in the (I think it was the times) the other day on the Hungarian problem.
I rarely read anything fair about Hungary these days in the foreign press.
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Old 13th January 2012, 16:34   #12 (permalink)
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I rarely read anything fair about Hungary these days in the foreign press.
This was almost entirely about your President's history, from the young liberal wanting his country "to be boring like Sweden" to the older leader, creating a one party state. I have no idea if that was far.

Fuck the Times for closing their online doors, do they not know that all debate happens on the net these days. The headline was something like "EU must act on Hungary's political deficit"
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Old 13th January 2012, 16:42   #13 (permalink)
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This was almost entirely about your President's history, from the young liberal wanting his country "to be boring like Sweden" to the older leader, creating a one party state. I have no idea if that was far.

Fuck the Times for closing their online doors, do they not know that all debate happens on the net these days. The headline was something like "EU must act on Hungary's political deficit"
The one party state is not a fair assessment. Its a one party state as much as one party has 68% of the seats in the house and they removed some techniques to filibuster in the parlament.


This is as far as saying that the US ceased to be a democracy after Obama signed the NDAA bill.
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Old 13th January 2012, 16:56   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cinc View Post
Basically what happened was that after the clusterfuck of Ferenc Gyurcsany, Fidesz got a huge majority, (68% of the house).

They are a dickish, powerhungry and heavyhanded bunch and they changed every law, including the constitution in sight. I really dont like them, would never vote for them, but I'm disgusted by the response of the western world.

What caused the reactions is that they went against multinational companies and now those are fighting back, punishing Hungary, so noone else gets silly ideas like taxing the Banks, allowing people by law to have a chance to prepay their loans (if they were in foreign currencies. In their economic policies they are kind of a "Occupy" style goverment. It doesnt help that the finance minister is a complete lunatic.

As for antidemocratic tendencies: the laws in themselves are not antidemocratic, but in result will make the system practically unchangable for goverments to come. During the constitutional reform they engraved the flat tax rate into the constitution, made a bunch of constitution like laws (that need the two-third of the house to change them). They argued that they (before the elections) said that if they gain the two-thirds of the house, will completely change the Hungary - and people still voted for them. Whats more, they would easily win the majority of the house even today.

The colonist behaviour of the west is shocking though, when Hillary Clinton writes a formal letter because the Scientologist and Baptist church (which she a member of) didnt recieve "church" taxstatus in the first round or that on a open tender a left wing radio didnt win a frequency(they had the most points based on content but couldnt pay enough for the lease (they offered about 100000 dollar/year for the frequency while the winner won it with three times as much) - than something very wrong.

I hope they will be out of the goverment in 2014, but I hope they will be out without outside influences.
Interesting. So what do they look like politically? Authoritarian and nationalist but economically left-wing?

What's the evidence that it's the multinationals who are responsible for the outside pressure? Not doubting you, I'm just interested.

Also, is there anything to stop another party changing the constitution back if they got a big majority?
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Old 13th January 2012, 17:03   #15 (permalink)
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This was almost entirely about your President's history, from the young liberal wanting his country "to be boring like Sweden" to the older leader, creating a one party state. I have no idea if that was far.

Fuck the Times for closing their online doors, do they not know that all debate happens on the net these days. The headline was something like "EU must act on Hungary's political deficit"
If you've got a library card you can dig it out of Newsbank.
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Old 13th January 2012, 17:04   #16 (permalink)
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Interesting. So what do they look like politically? Authoritarian and nationalist but economically left-wing?

What's the evidence that it's the multinationals who are responsible for the outside pressure? Not doubting you, I'm just interested.

Also, is there anything to stop another party changing the constitution back if they got a big majority?
They are nationalist (though not as much as either party in the US), and yes, economically they are left-wing.

There's evidence to this companies formally and informally campaigning in the US and the EU against regulations (particularly the banktax and the mortgage thing).

No, if anyone (or a coalition) gets 66.67%*** vote, they can reverse everything.
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Old 13th January 2012, 17:05   #17 (permalink)
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It's amusing that they are up in arms about the IMF at the same time they are negotiating a loan.
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Old 13th January 2012, 17:11   #18 (permalink)
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It's amusing that they are up in arms about the IMF at the same time they are negotiating a loan.
We have a lunatic for finance minister, a certifiable idiot.
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Old 13th January 2012, 17:12   #19 (permalink)
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We have a lunatic for finance minister, a certifiable idiot.
Matolcsy? Don't know much about him, but it does feel like he's just doing what he's told. Maybe by Orban, or not, if the conspiracy theories are to be believed.
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Old 13th January 2012, 17:15   #20 (permalink)
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Matolcsy? Don't know much about him, but it does feel like he's just doing what he's told. Maybe by Orban, or not, if the conspiracy theories are to be believed.
Orban has a huge hand in policies but Matolcsy was the one until quite recently who negotiated with the EU, the IMF, end the rest. Now, that Fellegi and Martonyi does much of the negotiating I suspect it will be much easier. Martonyi did teach me back in the day, he's a good and smart man
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Old 13th January 2012, 18:12   #21 (permalink)
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Is Ferenc Hungarian for Frank?
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Old 13th January 2012, 18:15   #22 (permalink)
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Is Ferenc Hungarian for Frank?
Francis,
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Old 13th January 2012, 18:27   #23 (permalink)
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I rarely read anything fair about Hungary these days in the foreign press.
We thought you were pretty okay until you stopped rolling over as you usually do and actually beat us in a football game.
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Old 13th January 2012, 18:32   #24 (permalink)
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We thought you were pretty okay until you stopped rolling over as you usually do and actually beat us in a football game.
I hate the Hungarian national team, to be honest.
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Old 13th January 2012, 19:12   #25 (permalink)
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Maybe I am imagining this but was Hungary at some point in the last couple of years who was thinking about voting rights for children?
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Old 13th January 2012, 19:20   #26 (permalink)
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Maybe I am imagining this but was Hungary at some point in the last couple of years who was thinking about voting rights for children?
Not exactly, there was an idea in the wild to give parents with under-14 childs an extra vote, but it never was really serious or official.
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Old 13th January 2012, 19:22   #27 (permalink)
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How often would you say Cinc that the spectre of the USSR and authoritarianism comes up in Hungarian politics? Is it something that all parties throw at each other on every other policy or is this current circumstance unique?
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Old 13th January 2012, 19:36   #28 (permalink)
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How often would you say Cinc that the spectre of the USSR and authoritarianism comes up in Hungarian politics? Is it something that all parties throw at each other on every other policy or is this current circumstance unique?
Communism does come up often as the largest opposition party is the legal successor of the ruling communist party and many of its (and of the party that was broken off it recently) leaders were part of the communist establishment.

Here in Hungary Orban and co. are more likely to be compared to Istvan Horthy, the governor between the two world wars.
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Old 13th January 2012, 19:47   #29 (permalink)
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So whilst I am certain there is far more to it than that - some of what I have read goes beyond what I'd consider to be an appropriate balance of powers - but would you say that a large part of the furore is due to the Government moving the country's balance of power away from the grasp of the centre-left and far-left purely for their own ideological reasons as opposed to constitutional or legal fears?

I have very little knowledge of Hungarian affairs at all so I don't like to come to such conclusions but am I right to imagine that the constitutional settlement following the collapse of the USSR was not considered settled and to the benefit of all Hungarian society as aptly as it could be, as opposed to this being an opportunist power grap at the first chance that the government got?
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Old 13th January 2012, 19:54   #30 (permalink)
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So whilst I am certain there is far more to it than that - some of what I have read goes beyond what I'd consider to be an appropriate balance of powers - but would you say that a large part of the furore is due to the Government moving the country's balance of power away from the grasp of the centre-left and far-left purely for their own ideological reasons as opposed to constitutional or legal fears?

I have very little knowledge of Hungarian affairs at all so I don't like to come to such conclusions but am I right to imagine that the constitutional settlement following the collapse of the USSR was not considered settled and to the benefit of all Hungarian society as aptly as it could be, as opposed to this being an opportunist power grap at the first chance that the government got?
Yes, apart from the economic issues these are "business as usual" arguments between the side. 4 years ago the then governing leftwing party (and the police) was heavy-handed during the protests, so the now governing rightwing parties toured around the world press saying "this is the end of democracy in Hungary".

It wasnt, just as like it isnt now.

The problem is that the farright (think BNP) Jobbik will be the winner of this conflict - I suspect they will get 25-30% of the votes next time.
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Old 13th January 2012, 20:13   #31 (permalink)
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Yes, apart from the economic issues these are "business as usual" arguments between the side. 4 years ago the then governing leftwing party (and the police) was heavy-handed during the protests, so the now governing rightwing parties toured around the world press saying "this is the end of democracy in Hungary".

It wasnt, just as like it isnt now.

The problem is that the farright (think BNP) Jobbik will be the winner of this conflict - I suspect they will get 25-30% of the votes next time.
Right then, except the EU has managed to get itself mixed up in this - it reminds me of when everybody went mental when the Austrians formed a government with a far-right party included in 2000 - not that I am saying both are the same which they do not appear to be.

I have looked into this Jobbik party who look like a bunch of nutters, I was verging on giving them the benefit of the doubt of being strongly right wing until I read that they have met with the BNP on occasion and maintain relations. Why do all of these parties do that? It makes it much easier for outside observers to see that they are nutters when they ally themselves with overseas parties.
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Old 13th January 2012, 20:21   #32 (permalink)
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Right then, except the EU has managed to get itself mixed up in this - it reminds me of when everybody went mental when the Austrians formed a government with a far-right party included in 2000 - not that I am saying both are the same which they do not appear to be.

I have looked into this Jobbik party who look like a bunch of nutters, I was verging on giving them the benefit of the doubt of being strongly right wing until I read that they have met with the BNP on occasion and maintain relations. Why do all of these parties do that? It makes it much easier for outside observers to see that they are nutters when they ally themselves with overseas parties.
The EU strong involvement is strange - eg. Hungary is under an "excessive budget deficit" review, when actually the budget deficit isnt even among the higher ones in the EU
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Old 13th January 2012, 20:25   #33 (permalink)
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Jobbik is just as right wing as the BNP - their immigrants are the gipsies and they are hugely anti-semitic too, to the extent of being very much Pro-Iran.
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Old 13th January 2012, 20:31   #34 (permalink)
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The EU strong involvement is strange - eg. Hungary is under an "excessive budget deficit" review, when actually the budget deficit isnt even among the higher ones in the EU
But do you have stockpiles of assets (aka gold)? If you do, you can afford to have a big deficit. If not you can't.
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Old 13th January 2012, 20:35   #35 (permalink)
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But do you have stockpiles of assets (aka gold)? If you do, you can afford to have a big deficit. If not you can't.
The National Bank has a pretty large euro/dollar reserve, about the size of the 2012 budget.
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Old 14th January 2012, 21:21   #36 (permalink)
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A public letter made public today at a demonstation by a civil group. While I think they are a little to lenient towards the current goverment (an overcompansation maybe) I agree with the general sentiment.


Quote:
Hands off Hungary!
Appeal to the international community and to all Hungarians
Over the past few weeks a massive overall financial and political offensive was unleashed against Hungarian sovereignty. The clear objective is to provoke regime change through sovereign default or a coup d’etat. The onslaught seeks to force Hungary to abandon her efforts to repair economic sovereignty and break out of debt slavery, much of it a legacy of the Communist era, to accept the IMF stand-by credit under stringent terms for the already suffering public, to restore the allegedly jeopardized independence of the National Bank of Hungary, and, ultimately, to return to colonial status. Domestic and international interest groups seeking this outcome claim that democracy in Hungary is in danger and accuse the government, elected with a sweeping two-thirds majority, of dictatorship and even Nazism. The unparalleled international campaign of calumnies and political blackmail is designed to isolate and force Hungary into submission.
Some go as far as openly stating that all means are justified to achieve this goal.
At Christmas 2011, following the demonstration by the opposition green party that claims to hold an anti-globalist position, the international media collectively mounted a coordinated campaign setting the scene for a well-orchestrated series of attacks by international political and banking circles.
The first step was Standard & Poor’s downgrading Hungary, whichimmediately triggered the exchange rate deterioration of the Hungarian currency. The political assault was led by US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton with her letter to the Hungarian Prime Minister.
The President of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso continued the process, and then was joined by the French Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Socialist, Green and Liberal factions of the European Parliament. They demand the retraction of the new Constitution and the Law on the National Bank of Hungary. Another rating agency, Fitch downgraded Hungary. Subsequently, the IMF demanded the retraction of the Law on the National Bank of Hungary as a condition for extending stand-by credit, and thus openly interfering with our sovereignty.
In the press, US public figures instigate the overthrowing of the freely elected legitimate Hungarian government. The media keeps repeating the threat of sovereign default while some scare-mongering foreign-owned banks spread rumours that the government wants to freeze retail deposits and that capital flight from Hungary has started. They are all assisted by the Western media, which collectively portray the defeated former Prime Minister,currently under investigation, as the defender of democracy. The irony is that it was this Prime Minister who indeed drove the country to the brink of sovereign default in 2009, and ordered the beating up and torturing of peaceful demonstrators with the tacit complicity of the West.
The general hysteria is unfounded. Despite the international financial crisis, Hungary’s budget deficit is a low 3%, and inflation is an acceptable 4%. The country has sufficient budget and foreign currency reserves. The Hungarian economy has survived the most critical phase of the economic crisis and is now in need of quiet and even-paced development.
We, responsible Hungarian citizens, reject all foreign interference with the internal affairs of Hungary. We refuse the overt interference with the Hungarian economy in general and the Hungarian National Bank in particular. This bank belongs to the nation not to international capital. We find it unacceptable that others wish to decide for us who should lead our country
and how we should conduct our own lives. Ultimate decision-making power over our laws and the Constitution belongs to us, Hungarians. The resolution of Hungary’s political and economic problems remains the exclusive right and duty of the Hungarian people.
Therefore, we warn all interest groups and entities that threaten our sovereignty and democracy: hands off Hungary!
We reject the attempt to restore foreign dominance in Hungary two decades after liberation from foreign occupation. We especially object to demands from countries that promote economic colonization, violate human rights, interfere with other countries’ internal affairs leaving behind masses of refugees, poverty and political chaos, and that export democracy via
military aggression. We also refuse disapproval from countries that severely curtail the human and cultural rights of Hungarians living on their territory.
After forty years of Communist dictatorship, we reject financial dictatorship and colonization.
We are aware of the government’s mistakes, a consequence of the pressing need for speedy legislation and a lack of dialogue. Therefore, we invite the Hungarian government to open an honest dialogue with the whole of Hungarian society, with the Hungarian nation, about matters of vital national interest, and to take steps to broaden the institutions of direct democracy. Only such policies can provide Hungarians with reassuring guarantees of long-
term internal stability.Despite any problems and mistakes, we support the policy of protecting Hungary’s sovereignty. We appeal to all patriotic Hungarians who hold dear the nation’s interest to set aside all potential political disagreements and to take a stance to protect Hungarian
independence. This is a time to stand up for Hungary’s independence!
Hands off Hungary!
The message of Hungarian civil organizations will be delivered at an event to be held at the 1956 Memorial at Kossuth tér at 15.00 hours on Saturday, 14 January 2012. Copies of their statements will subsequently be sent to relevant embassies and Hungarian public figures.
Budapest, 10 January 2012
Élőlánc Magyarországért
Contact: Ács Sándorné (+3630) 385-0379
Ertsey Attila (+3630) 555-1284
iroda@elolanc.h
u
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Old 16th January 2012, 19:21   #37 (permalink)
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Old 17th January 2012, 08:38   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raoul View Post
So we're putting Pexbo in charge?
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Old 17th January 2012, 18:57   #39 (permalink)
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BBC News - EU opens legal action against Hungary over new laws

this makes the front page of the BBC website and it is frontpage news around the net. Just a few extra data: since 2004 225 infringement procedures were launched against Hungary. I think there are 17 such active procedures are running.

Just in 2010, 176 were launched against Italy, 159 against Belgium, 157 against Greece - yet these current three today were made into huge news.
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Old 17th January 2012, 21:17   #40 (permalink)
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cinc are you sure that everything is well with your country?
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