Greek referendum on Euro austerity measures

rcoobc

End of the world?

peterstorey

Papa's attempt to save his arse. The Greeks go bust later this month unless they get the bail out so they've got to do what that nice Mr Sarkozy and Ms Merkel say.

Brophs

Yeah, it's one of those ones where he's trying to distance himself from the decision by being able to say "Well you lot voted for it".

rcoobc

Debt crisis: live - Telegraph

From the telegraph debt crisis live this morning.

evra

He's trying to get a mandate for himself to take some of the pressure off, as you can imagine the oppositioin parties in Greece are having a field-day over there. Personally I can't see the Greek electorate supporting the measures he's taking, it's all a complete mess.

Decotron

Take your medicine fucker.......

rcoobc

70% of Greeks want to stay in the Euro, whilst "the majority of greeks" do not support the new austerity measures. You can see how they are going to dress this up.
Even though he is playing with the future of Greece, the Euro, the world Economies, you can see the logic behind this move.

evra

To be fair it seems reasonable to suggest the two go hand in hand (acceptance of the measures and continued membership that is).

Eugenius

The Greeks are fucked anyway tbh. It's either austerity or they'll leave the euro and have massive inflation and interest rates.

maniak

I´m confused. Isn´t democracy supposed to be a good thing?

evra

One of the flaws of direct democracy is that you end up asking the public to make decisions on issues they don't really understand.

Red Dreams

What an irresponsible thing to pass the buck to a refrendum.

I know the government may well disolve, but at least do he right thing and acccept the deal and move forward.

evra

You just know that he was thinking of pulling this all the while he was going cap in hand to everyone in Europe. Someone told me today that he didn't even warn his cabinet.

Sir Matt

Looking after his own ass rather than doing the best thing possible. I hate politicians.

maniak

Two edged sword, no? I mean, how many people really understand most subjects politicians discuss in pre-electoral debates and campaigns? Most people I know have no idea what they´re talking about and just vote on labels (i.e. left/right, communist/free market, conservative/liberal) without understand the issues.

rcoobc

Very very true, combine this with the apathy for those that do actually know what they are going on about.

SteveJ

Not sure if the following is especially relevant but still...

Greece debt crisis: Greeks believe Germans owe them £60bn for Nazi war crimes | Mail Online

maniak

When nationalism and old grudges start making headlines we know we´re in the right direction.

Team Brian GB

This is the sort of thing that annoys me, politicians do something unpopular and people cry out about 'trampling on democracy' - they have a mandate from the people to run the country for a few years and that is what they are doing.

Populism, democracy and representative government are all different things.

Red-Indian

Phrased as a mandate on the Euro, I think this has a very good chance of passing and it will really strengthen the government's hand.

Most of my Greek friends don't see any other way out so they'll vote for it.

Team Brian GB

The problem is that there isn't time to wait around for a referendum, this would be like holding a referendum to go to war when your adversary is mobilising and is arming their forces.

maniak

I disagree. This is not an ordinary decision, it´s something that will affect dramatically current and future generations.

I don´t disagree with this referendum. The greek people know what´s at stake and they know they have to pass it or they´re fucked. If they don´t pass it, then they will only have themselves to blame. That´s democracy.

"Oh, but people don´t really understand". As I said, they don´t understand most things anyway and we still have elections.

A great example is Portugal. PSD said in the campaign they would follow the troika memorandum, people gave them (and their coalition partners) a majority. The PM starts doing what he said he would do and suddenly people are outraged because he lied to them. He didn´t, they just weren´t well informed int he first place.

Mick1991

Germany and France putting the pressure on big time now. Withholding 8 billion from the first bailout..........

peterstorey

I think they'd love the excuse to say 'fuck Greece let them to to the wall and we'll use the money to protect the rest of the PIIGS'.

Mick1991

Yep, hinting that they don't mind having Greece in the Union but they certainly don't need them to go on.

711

The French and Germans fucked up. They should have said they would start the loan but only continue depending on a referendum. It is them that should have insisted on one in the first place. Just agreeing to loan when everyone knew the majority of the Greek population were not behind their prime minister anyway was stupid of them.

On the plus side the rest of europe have watched the French and Germans having a private meeting then coming out and telling the rest of Europe what was going to happen again. Just like always happens. I think we may be seeing the end of those days, and Europe minus France and Germany will gradually start to assert their political power. Sooner the EEC expands again, especially with Turkey, the better, as it will grow more into the free trade area it should be, and less a 'United States of Europe'.

maniak

That´s the spirit of the European "Union".

Pogue Mahone

Greek government on brink of collapse over debt crisis | World news | guardian.co.uk

Shit just got real...

Stanley Road

I'm not sure the the referendum is what annoys Merkozy and the others, it's the fact that he kept it secret till the 'Deal' was done

Had he mentioned it then plan B could have been put into place

rcoobc

The guardian seem close to 100% sure that the government will fall and have done for a number of days, and the telegraph seem close to 100% sure that Greece will leave the Euro and have done for a number of days. Personally I'm wondering if either know what they are talking about.

Wibble

Are the two mutually exclusive?

peterstorey

Papa's dead meat so they'll scrap the vote and get the money.

rednev

The Greek PM has called off the referendum.

Incredible.

rednev

What an absolute cunt!

He calls a referendum, which rattles markets around the world, as a way of covering his own arse, and then barely 2 days later when threatened with a vote of no confidence, he calls it off...in order to save his own arse.

evra

Buy Buy Buy!!!

711

There is either a majority of Greeks against the austerity measures or at best a very substantial minority.

The austerity measures stand no chance of succeeding without either an election giving a clear choice, or a referendum. And not a referendum on whether the Greeks want to stay in the eurozone, which the German's want but which would achieve nothing, but a referendum on whether the Greeks themselves approve of the proposed austerity measures.

A referendum isn't a problem, it's a necessary step to a solution.

Red-Indian

Well the austerity measures are needed to stay in the Euro. They're borrowing money from their Euro partners and need to implement the austerity measures to continue doing so.

The referendum (if there is one) will have to link the two together. Stay in the Euro and implement the austerity measures or opt out of it and don't. Either way, the Greeks (and possibly the rest of the world...especially Europe)are in for a world of pain.

711

They're supposed to be necessary to receive the loan in the first place, but if the population won't accept them and go on strike or refuse to pay taxes then they won't be able to pay off any of their debt, old or new. Which is why the question of their acceptance should come first, euro or no euro. The Greek pm is actually right, without an acceptance of the austerity measures the whole deal isn't on anyway.

maniak

For good or worse, I still think the greek people should be given the chance to express themselves over this. The greek government shouldn´t accept impositions/plans from the franco-german side (irrelevant to my point if they´re necessary or not) without listening to the people.

This issue is too important not to do so.

Team Brian GB

The economic well being of 500 million people across the European Union should not be held hostage by the Greeks not wanting to deal with the mess they have created for themselves over many years.

How do you think the Germans feel given their Government has pledged hundreds of billions of Euros to a bailout mechanism, and the Greek PM throws a curveball and gots all populist? There was public anger when Britain loaned a few billion to Ireland, if there was a few zeros on the end of that and Dublin was pulling the rug from under its own feet we wouldn't be amused either.