Homosexuality - Were people born Homosexual?

WeasteDevil · 22nd July 2008, 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

I can't now specifically remember a 'point' when I discovered I was heterosexual, but obviously there was a time when such feelings developed. I imagine the homosexual experiences the same biological awakening

I guess what it boils down to is my belief that men and women were biologically meant to be together, hence their abilities to reproduce. Men and men / women and women have not been given that natural ability; they have the parts seperately, but not the 'urge'. My theory is that their particular urges are developed due to some reasoning of nurture around the time a heterosexual does

However, what I won't do is preach that opinion and declare it as fact. I simply don't know for sure my opinion is correct. This is why I don't bother to get into theological arguements, because people on both sides of the divide fail to recognise this sometimes

First, what is it that makes men and women different? And how is that built exactly?

WeasteDevil · 22nd July 2008, 02:33

Second, what if something goes wrong in that building process?

WeasteDevil · 22nd July 2008, 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clueless

But what about gay animals Brad?

What happened during their nurturing?

They turned into dirty bastards like me.

Clueless · 22nd July 2008, 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

First, what is it that makes men and women different? And how is that built exactly?

The difference?

Men's got their G-spot in their ass.

Pimpmofo · 22nd July 2008, 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

I've not quite properly explained what I meant with the 'gay voice' thing, obviously I'm not saying anyone speaking in that manner is pretending to be gay. Given I'm failing to express myself properly, I'll drop the matter from discussion

I understand what you are talking about with the "gay voice." It is a choice they have to talk that way which is unnecessary, the same way rappers use their ghetto slang and accents is unnecessary and influence more people to talk that way. I think along with the gay lifestyle comes influences and peer pressure to talk and act more feminine in certain groups. My wife and I have a very close friend that's this way and we call him "The Flamer." He's very proud of his name. Other gay friends show no stereotypical gay tendencies and most people except close friends have no idea about their lifestyle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

Why don't you like marriage Frosty?

The men and women being together thing, biologically men and women ARE meant to be together, that much is obvious from the tools given to us, and why the majority of us fancy the opposite sex.

I am married and did it only so we could reap each other's benefits from our jobs. I hope that my wife and I are together our whole lives, but an official peice of paper that was signed by us and some guy that thought he was important does nothing to make our relationship stronger. It is my opinion that we would be together the rest of our lives regardless.
We decided a long time ago that we wouldn't have kids. I have been married 10 years. The "tools given to us" are wasted on my wife and I. We are an heterosexual couple that just as well be gay, according to the way I understand your post since we don't use the "tools" for reproduction.

Brad · 22nd July 2008, 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pimpmofo

I understand what you are talking about with the "gay voice." It is a choice they have to talk that way which is unnecessary, the same way rappers use their ghetto slang and accents is unnecessary and influence more people to talk that way. I think along with the gay lifestyle comes influences and peer pressure to talk and act more feminine in certain groups. My wife and I have a very close friend that's this way and we call him "The Flamer." He's very proud of his name. Other gay friends show no stereotypical gay tendencies and most people except close friends have no idea about their lifestyle.

I am married and did it only so we could reap each other's benefits from our jobs. I hope that my wife and I are together our whole lives, but an official peice of paper that was signed by us and some guy that thought he was important does nothing to make our relationship stronger. It is my opinion that we would be together the rest of our lives regardless.
We decided a long time ago that we wouldn't have kids. I have been married 10 years. The "tools given to us" are wasted on my wife and I. We are an heterosexual couple that just as well be gay, according to the way I understand your post since we don't use the "tools" for reproduction.

I'm glad someone finally understood what I was on about!

With the kids thing, obviously its a choice between you and the wife regarding kids. Are you not concerned about carrying on the family line? Generation upon generation has led to your existance, and you're ending that. But anyway, fact is if you so decided, you could have children with your partner in a biologically natural fashion. Gays don't have the lifestyle choice you make in that regard

iguanamanc · 22nd July 2008, 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

Just because a gay bloke is single doesn't mean he fancies you. Just the same as that I don't fancy all single women I come across. Would I shag them if they offered it in any case? Yes, probably, but that's a different matter.

That's definitely in your genetic make-up. A prime alpha-male wanting to spread his seed as widely as possible.

Spoonov · 22nd July 2008, 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

Well, the gay would need a woman to reproduce if he was a man gay, there are certain laws here in regards to reproduction. However, even a gayer shagging a woman doesn't mean he's not a gayer. Doesn't mean he would enjoy the experience of copulating with a woman or not either. Homosexuality is not about willies and holes, it's not that simple.

I can't stand really camp gay people. Anyway, there's this bloke at work, and he's got beached blond hair, has a gay voice and is about as camp as Julian Clairy. He doesn't like to sit around me. . .in fact avoids any contact with hetro males. . .but has no beef with women. . .and usually talks about how much he loves taking time off for shopping. 'I love shopping!!'. This man is clearly gay. Yet, I found out yesterday that he's married with kids. Must admit I was dumbfounded when I found out. I don't get it at all. That said, many gay blokes get married.

Spoonov · 22nd July 2008, 09:48

Oh and is this homophobic? I was sat near him. . .and I just mentioned to him that I was going for a cig. I didn't say I was going for fag. I just couldn't.

nickm · 22nd July 2008, 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

butgiven human beings have the ability to reproduce, to me that suggests men and women are meant to be together

I have a problem with "meant".

Men and women are designed to go together. But just as equally, men and women were orignally designed for the African savannah, rather than say, for space travel.

Yet only loons say we aren't "meant" to go into space.

The whole point of being human is we are not necessarily restricted by our biology. That can go for sex just as much as anything else.

VanNistelrater · 22nd July 2008, 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizard Keyaz

The Spartans did it so they do not bred spartans, I know Hercules was gay too!

But anyway to conclude what everyone is saying, no one has scientific facts that people are generally born gay, which is actually a myth created by gay scientist who calls himself Dean Hamer.

So will you accept a scientist who is gay to come out with his findings?

Also some scientists have gone out there way to find one fish species to be gay (from some part of Africa) and there are over thousand kind of fishes and they find one that does this.

This in theory doesn't hold any water, also if you take this theory into account so then a woman can kill the man after sexual intercourse, because a species within the spider family kills its partner after mating.

So can this really be accepted in Society?

People are not born gay, they just embrace it!

You are confusing things. I dont think there is any absolute scientific consensus but the most prevalent theory is that it's to do with the way your brain is sexed in the womb; if you receive abnormal levels of testosterone or estrogen or some other chemical. That's different from there being a gay 'gene', per se.

No doubt there is a social element like there is with hetrosexuality, but only in so far as one acts on the urge - if society admonished and persecuted you for knobbing women you would try to suppress it, and it might work for a bit but it would always lurk under the surface, and probably make you all the more miserable for it.

The gay argument actually shows religion to be the decrepit, crumbling old bollocks that it is. Outstripped by our understanding of how sexuality develops, it has no reason to tell people why they shouldnt act on their urges. They can't show what harm two blokes getting off actually does to anyone, other than pointing to medieval scripts that were written when we also had no idea there was such a thing as molecules let alone testosterone, or making stuff up about paedophilia.

Fittingly, it's the gay argument that seems to be ripping the Anglican church apart at present. Long may it continue.

iguanamanc · 22nd July 2008, 18:49

Why 'Lonesome George', the world's rarest giant tortoise, may no longer be one-of-a-kind

After decades of solitude, 'Lonesome George' may finally save his species of Galapagos giant tortoise from extinction, it has been revealed.

George, a Pinta island tortoise who has shown little interest in reproducing during 36 years in captivity, stunned his keepers by mating with one of his two female companions of a similar species of Galapagos tortoise.

Park rangers found a nest with several eggs in George's pen and placed three in incubators. It will take about four months to know whether the eggs bear George's offspring.

'Even if these three eggs are fertile and the born tortoises survive it will take several genetic generations to think of having a Pinta purebred ... even centuries,' the park said in a statement.

After trying almost everything from artificial insemination to having George watch younger males mate, his keepers had nearly lost hope.

At the age of 90, George is in his sexual prime for a giant tortoise and should be able to reproduce.

Scientists found a distant relative of George on another island last year, sparking hopes of another male for mating with some Pinta genes.

The visual differences of tortoises from different islands were among the features of the Galapagos that helped British naturalist Charles Darwin formulate his theory of evolution.

George, considered by many the world's rarest creature and a conservation icon, was thought to be the last of his kind after fishermen and pirates slaughtered his species for food.

Ecuador has declared the islands at risk and the United Nations says efforts to protect them should continue.

Some 20,000 giant tortoises of various species now live on the islands

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...nger-kind.html

.................................................. .................

And here's me thinking all the time that Lonesome George was a freak of Darwinism and gay as a three pound note.

muller · 22nd July 2008, 22:43

I'll always remember a lecturer at Uni talking on the subject.

"Of course gays were born gays, its in their genetic make up. It is more than likely a mis-firing part of their brain."

He was joking by the way.

VanNistelrater · 23rd July 2008, 15:48

Btw there is a program on BBC1 tomorrow on this subject, 'The Making of Me' with some gay fella off the tele seeking to explain why he is so. 9pm. Could answer some questions raised in this thread.

Simon Adebesi · 23rd July 2008, 17:39

Homosexuals can't swim, they attract enemy radar, they attract sharks, they nudge people when they're trying to shoot, they always insist on sitting at "The Captain's Table"... they "muck about".

Imagine the fear when you go to sleep with a gay man on board and think "Oh God, when I wake up, will everyone be dead?"

You can't run a ship like that.

Clueless · 23rd July 2008, 22:49

Number7 · 23rd July 2008, 23:03

Isn't post #35 kind of stepping over the line a bit?

Wibble · 24th July 2008, 01:32

I think people forget that sexuality isn't a simple physical trait like a foot. Many things contribute to it and many are hard to measure or assess their contribution.

Selection, as we know, will favour a trait that results in your genes being passed on more frequently. So there is obviously a large selection pressure towards men wanting to shag women. There is also an obvious selection pressure towards your knob feeling good when it is rubbed to encourage procreation but the side effects of this is that knobs get rubbed a great deal without resulting in procreation as a side effect.

Many breeding systems, again the result of selection, encourage monogamous relationships particularly where significant child rearing is required yet you find that there is also a great deal of cheating (sneaky fucking as Biologists like to call it) because the danger of monogamy is that you have chosen a sterile partner or one with rubbish genes.

The point I'm making, badly, is that each of these traits are selected for yet there are implications beyond the part of the trait that is selected for. It doesn't take much of an imagination to realise that something as powerful as our desire to have sex can be sidetracked.

It could be nurture (bad experience in childhood etc), it could be developmental (surge, or lack of, the correct sex hormone in the womb) or genetic (a gene linkage between something essential and the alleged gay gene at the chromosomal level).

One thing is for sure is that is isn't homologous or even analogous to choosing a new haircut.

WeasteDevil · 24th July 2008, 01:35

Sexuality is in the head, it's what gets your blood boiling. Not what bits your body has. That ¡s quite clear.

As for your nurture comments, I do not believe that to be the case, unless it comes down to brainwashing.

Number7 · 24th July 2008, 02:39

I read something a while back some theory which claimed everyone is infact born bisexual and it's the upbringing of the child that pushes the majority towards hetrosexuality and others towards homosexuality through psycological reasons. I don't agree with it however, as it would suggest to me anyway, that it is possible to change sexuality in later life and I just don't think that is possible. I reckon a lot of lesbians and gays would prefer to be straight as it would probably make their lives a lot easier. Ask any sane gay or lezza if it's possible for them to change their sexuality and they will all say no. It isn't possible, and for that reason it must be genetic.

Wibble · 24th July 2008, 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

Sexuality is in the head, it's what gets your blood boiling. Not what bits your body has. That ¡s quite clear.

As for your nurture comments, I do not believe that to be the case, unless it comes down to brainwashing.

I think that in most cases your hetero/homosexuality is more or less hardwired but that if due to genetics/foetal development/whatever you have a predisposition to being gay then nurture can push you towards being actually gay.

Wibble · 24th July 2008, 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number7

I read something a while back some theory which claimed everyone is infact born bisexual and it's the upbringing of the child that pushes the majority towards hetrosexuality and others towards homosexuality through psycological reasons.

I think that is utter rubbish.

I don't agree with it however, as it would suggest to me anyway, that it is possible to change sexuality in later life and I just don't think that is possible. I reckon a lot of lesbians and gays would prefer to be straight as it would probably make their lives a lot easier. Ask any sane gay or lezza if it's possible for them to change their sexuality and they will all say no. It isn't possible, and for that reason it must be genetic.

Inability to choose a change in sexuality doesn't neccesarily equate to a gentic cause.

iguanamanc · 30th July 2008, 07:10

From this weeks New Scientist, more evidence of the genetic link to gender identity.............

.................................................. ....................

'Transsexuality gene' boosts male hormones

* 16:13 29 July 2008
* NewScientist.com news service
* Linda Geddes

A gene variant has been identified that appears to be associated with female-to-male transsexuality – the feeling some women have that they belong to the opposite sex.

While such complex behaviour is likely the result of multiple genes, environmental and cultural factors, the researchers say the discovery suggests that transsexuality does have a genetic component.

The variation is in the gene for an enzyme called cytochrome P17, which is involved in the metabolism of sex hormones. Its presence leads to higher than average tissue concentrations of male and female sex hormones, which may in turn influence early brain development.

Clemens Tempfer and his colleagues at the Medical University of Vienna in Austria discovered the variant after analysing DNA samples from 49 female-to-male (FtM) and 102 male-to-female (MtF) transsexuals, as well as 1669 non-transsexual controls.

The variant was more common in men than women, although it doesn’t seem to be implicated in MtF transsexuality as the proportion of MtF transsexuals with it was similar to that in non-transsexual men. In women, however, there were some differences: 44% of FtM transsexuals carried it, compared with 31% of non-transsexual women.
Testosterone boost

While there are many women with the variant who are not transsexual and many FtM transsexuals who lack it, the finding raises the possibility that the variant makes women more likely to feel that their bodies are of the wrong sex, and that this is a result of their brains having been exposed to higher than average levels of sex hormones during development.

"It may increase the likelihood that people will become transsexual," says Tempfer. But he stresses that their cultural environment is also important.

"The present study found that a mutant gene that ultimately results in higher testosterone levels is overrepresented in female-to male transsexualism, says Mikael Landén of the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden.

"This is in line with what we previously know about masculinisation of the brain and is therefore less likely to be a chance finding", he says. "Hence, the study is important and adds to the notion that gender identity is influenced by sex hormones early in life, and that certain gene combinations make individuals more vulnerable to aberrant effects."
Motive fears

However, Janett Scott, former president of the Beaumont Society, a UK support group for transgender people, is concerned that positing a biological basis for transsexuality may encourage people to try and cure it.

"Nature may have made us the way that we are, but nurture is what gives us a problem," she says.

Tempfer strongly denies any such motive for his research: "That is completely out of the question," he says.

Nonetheless, he says, if other gene variants with a stronger association to transsexuality are identified, establishing a diagnosis might become easier. This might allow gender reassignment surgery or hormone therapy to start earlier in life

http:/http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14424-transsexuality-gene-boosts-male-hormones.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=top1_head_%27Transsexuality%20gene%27%2 0boosts%20male%20hormones/

22nd July 2008, 02:33	#82 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Hand Solo Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Castellón de la Plana Posts: 58,870	Second, what if something goes wrong in that building process?

22nd July 2008, 09:48	#89 (permalink)
Spoonov El Presidente - Voted best poster 2007 Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Number 17. (Laura's got a cellulite arse). RIP Jermaine Stewart. Posts: 26,179	Oh and is this homophobic? I was sat near him. . .and I just mentioned to him that I was going for a cig. I didn't say I was going for fag. I just couldn't.

22nd July 2008, 18:49	#92 (permalink)
iguanamanc Reserve Team Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: exiled in Worcester Posts: 2,251	Why 'Lonesome George', the world's rarest giant tortoise, may no longer be one-of-a-kind After decades of solitude, 'Lonesome George' may finally save his species of Galapagos giant tortoise from extinction, it has been revealed. George, a Pinta island tortoise who has shown little interest in reproducing during 36 years in captivity, stunned his keepers by mating with one of his two female companions of a similar species of Galapagos tortoise. Park rangers found a nest with several eggs in George's pen and placed three in incubators. It will take about four months to know whether the eggs bear George's offspring. 'Even if these three eggs are fertile and the born tortoises survive it will take several genetic generations to think of having a Pinta purebred ... even centuries,' the park said in a statement. After trying almost everything from artificial insemination to having George watch younger males mate, his keepers had nearly lost hope. At the age of 90, George is in his sexual prime for a giant tortoise and should be able to reproduce. Scientists found a distant relative of George on another island last year, sparking hopes of another male for mating with some Pinta genes. The visual differences of tortoises from different islands were among the features of the Galapagos that helped British naturalist Charles Darwin formulate his theory of evolution. George, considered by many the world's rarest creature and a conservation icon, was thought to be the last of his kind after fishermen and pirates slaughtered his species for food. Ecuador has declared the islands at risk and the United Nations says efforts to protect them should continue. Some 20,000 giant tortoises of various species now live on the islands http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...nger-kind.html .................................................. ................. And here's me thinking all the time that Lonesome George was a freak of Darwinism and gay as a three pound note.

22nd July 2008, 22:43	#93 (permalink)
muller Reserve Team Player Join Date: May 2008 Location: Outside the box, thinking. Posts: 1,561	I'll always remember a lecturer at Uni talking on the subject. "Of course gays were born gays, its in their genetic make up. It is more than likely a mis-firing part of their brain." He was joking by the way.

23rd July 2008, 15:48	#94 (permalink)
VanNistelrater Poncey film buff Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Combatting ignorance, dust and disease \| MUFC Champions 2006/2007: Where will the goals come from?\| Wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerily out of obscurity into the dream Posts: 26,180	Btw there is a program on BBC1 tomorrow on this subject, 'The Making of Me' with some gay fella off the tele seeking to explain why he is so. 9pm. Could answer some questions raised in this thread.

23rd July 2008, 17:39	#95 (permalink)
Simon Adebesi Reserve Team Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Sanctity, like a cat, abhors filth. Posts: 1,975	Homosexuals can't swim, they attract enemy radar, they attract sharks, they nudge people when they're trying to shoot, they always insist on sitting at "The Captain's Table"... they "muck about". Imagine the fear when you go to sleep with a gay man on board and think "Oh God, when I wake up, will everyone be dead?" You can't run a ship like that.

23rd July 2008, 22:49	#96 (permalink)
Clueless causes posters to develop an inability to understand irony Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 3,379

23rd July 2008, 23:03	#97 (permalink)
Number7 Ret's Slave Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 21,415	Isn't post #35 kind of stepping over the line a bit?

24th July 2008, 01:32	#98 (permalink)
Wibble Teeth like a reindeer. Hung like a horse. Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Ingadus Speramus Posts: 34,204	I think people forget that sexuality isn't a simple physical trait like a foot. Many things contribute to it and many are hard to measure or assess their contribution. Selection, as we know, will favour a trait that results in your genes being passed on more frequently. So there is obviously a large selection pressure towards men wanting to shag women. There is also an obvious selection pressure towards your knob feeling good when it is rubbed to encourage procreation but the side effects of this is that knobs get rubbed a great deal without resulting in procreation as a side effect. Many breeding systems, again the result of selection, encourage monogamous relationships particularly where significant child rearing is required yet you find that there is also a great deal of cheating (sneaky fucking as Biologists like to call it) because the danger of monogamy is that you have chosen a sterile partner or one with rubbish genes. The point I'm making, badly, is that each of these traits are selected for yet there are implications beyond the part of the trait that is selected for. It doesn't take much of an imagination to realise that something as powerful as our desire to have sex can be sidetracked. It could be nurture (bad experience in childhood etc), it could be developmental (surge, or lack of, the correct sex hormone in the womb) or genetic (a gene linkage between something essential and the alleged gay gene at the chromosomal level). One thing is for sure is that is isn't homologous or even analogous to choosing a new haircut.

24th July 2008, 01:35	#99 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Hand Solo Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Castellón de la Plana Posts: 58,870	Sexuality is in the head, it's what gets your blood boiling. Not what bits your body has. That ¡s quite clear. As for your nurture comments, I do not believe that to be the case, unless it comes down to brainwashing.

24th July 2008, 02:39	#100 (permalink)
Number7 Ret's Slave Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 21,415	I read something a while back some theory which claimed everyone is infact born bisexual and it's the upbringing of the child that pushes the majority towards hetrosexuality and others towards homosexuality through psycological reasons. I don't agree with it however, as it would suggest to me anyway, that it is possible to change sexuality in later life and I just don't think that is possible. I reckon a lot of lesbians and gays would prefer to be straight as it would probably make their lives a lot easier. Ask any sane gay or lezza if it's possible for them to change their sexuality and they will all say no. It isn't possible, and for that reason it must be genetic.

30th July 2008, 07:10	#103 (permalink)
iguanamanc Reserve Team Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: exiled in Worcester Posts: 2,251	From this weeks New Scientist, more evidence of the genetic link to gender identity............. .................................................. .................... 'Transsexuality gene' boosts male hormones * 16:13 29 July 2008 * NewScientist.com news service * Linda Geddes A gene variant has been identified that appears to be associated with female-to-male transsexuality – the feeling some women have that they belong to the opposite sex. While such complex behaviour is likely the result of multiple genes, environmental and cultural factors, the researchers say the discovery suggests that transsexuality does have a genetic component. The variation is in the gene for an enzyme called cytochrome P17, which is involved in the metabolism of sex hormones. Its presence leads to higher than average tissue concentrations of male and female sex hormones, which may in turn influence early brain development. Clemens Tempfer and his colleagues at the Medical University of Vienna in Austria discovered the variant after analysing DNA samples from 49 female-to-male (FtM) and 102 male-to-female (MtF) transsexuals, as well as 1669 non-transsexual controls. The variant was more common in men than women, although it doesn’t seem to be implicated in MtF transsexuality as the proportion of MtF transsexuals with it was similar to that in non-transsexual men. In women, however, there were some differences: 44% of FtM transsexuals carried it, compared with 31% of non-transsexual women. Testosterone boost While there are many women with the variant who are not transsexual and many FtM transsexuals who lack it, the finding raises the possibility that the variant makes women more likely to feel that their bodies are of the wrong sex, and that this is a result of their brains having been exposed to higher than average levels of sex hormones during development. "It may increase the likelihood that people will become transsexual," says Tempfer. But he stresses that their cultural environment is also important. "The present study found that a mutant gene that ultimately results in higher testosterone levels is overrepresented in female-to male transsexualism, says Mikael Landén of the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden. "This is in line with what we previously know about masculinisation of the brain and is therefore less likely to be a chance finding", he says. "Hence, the study is important and adds to the notion that gender identity is influenced by sex hormones early in life, and that certain gene combinations make individuals more vulnerable to aberrant effects." Motive fears However, Janett Scott, former president of the Beaumont Society, a UK support group for transgender people, is concerned that positing a biological basis for transsexuality may encourage people to try and cure it. "Nature may have made us the way that we are, but nurture is what gives us a problem," she says. Tempfer strongly denies any such motive for his research: "That is completely out of the question," he says. Nonetheless, he says, if other gene variants with a stronger association to transsexuality are identified, establishing a diagnosis might become easier. This might allow gender reassignment surgery or hormone therapy to start earlier in life http:/http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14424-transsexuality-gene-boosts-male-hormones.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=top1_head_%27Transsexuality%20gene%27%2 0boosts%20male%20hormones/