Immigration in the UK. Enoch Powell 40 years on............

topper

Many don't want to go back even being bribed to return

I have no problem - have an opinion by all means but deliver it in a more temperate way - Insulting your hosts by calling 30 million Brits too stupid to understand wouldn't make them feel more kindly towards you and other immigrants maybe less fortunate than you

Redlambs

Your point was made before the sentence.

Redlambs

My apologies.


Only on letting in the right people before giving them full rights. You tried to argue that there wasn't that many illegals over here, I wonder if you will try to argue that there aren't an abundance of people over here specifically for taking advantage of our seemingly easy-going system?

Those are the people that should have no say what-so-ever. Separating them form the actual people who should benefit would be an almost impossible task now.

spinoza

Again posted several times in this and other threads - if you remove restrictions on coming and going, people come and go. If you restrict coming, it also tends to restrict going, because people don't want to waste all they have invested in coming.

Easiest way to see this is to look at Germany's problem with Turkish guest workers.
If you'd noticed I clarified that a few posts back. Being ignorant is a fact and not an insult - it can be easily remedied. Being ignorant and refusing to admit it is what makes it silly.

topper

are you serious - so if the US remove all border/entry restrictions there'll not be a problem for them. It'll merely be people just coming in and er ..........oh yes going back. All those millions of Mexicans as well as zillions of others from all over the world - me included - WOW but don't worry folks over the pond it'll even itself out in the end

spinoza

Well, depends on how you define abundance. I don't doubt that there are illegals (although I did doubt there were as many as iguanamanc said, but probably not now that I did some digging). As a proportion of total immigration though, illegals and spongers together should make up no more than 30%. Obviously this could go down. The sensible thing to do however is not to restrict immigration, because by definition both illegals and spongers buck the system anyway.
Believe you me, the current points system does a good job of separating would be spongers from immigrants who contribute. I suggest that rights should be given in proportion to how much tax immigrants pay (with various exceptions), which is a great way to measure direct contributions.

Illegals of course, fall outside all of these. As do EU migrants, who automatically get all their rights upon entry anyway, which is why the focus should be on them rather than non EU migrants.

Redlambs

Are you joking? The country is already falling apart with the numbers coming in now, let alone just allowing all comers!


I agree, it is more the EU side of things and that is by far the bigger problem in my eyes.

spinoza

Yes, it's counter intuitive. But I never said remove ALL restrictions if you notice. It should just be easier to come and go. At the moment in the US, if you come (illegally) you can't go, and if you come twice legally you can't come anymore. So people just drop off the radar after the second visit.

Say however, you made it such that people could come whenever they want, work for a set amount of time, go back or renew their visa with minimum hassle. A large number of people will go home after a while (as many Polish people are now doing in the UK).

spinoza

I pay enough in tax to support several people on the dole. Obviously you want more people like me. The challenge is to figure out how to get them, rather than clamping down on all and sundry.
Thanks.

topper

Sorry forgot this gem - so immagine yourself being invited to a dinner by a work aquaintance whose wife cannot cook. The meal is a diaster given her lack of culinary skills and at the end she asked did you enjoy your meal.

You say it was bloody awfull and she cannot cook - all fact and can be remedied as you point out and not an insult - so your hostess says you're right and I will make steps to become better - thanks for drawing this to my attention dream on Spinoza

Redlambs

Again agreed.

However, the problem is as you pointed out, the difference between the EU immigrants and the non-EU immigrants. The government is clearly using the clamp down on the non-EU's as a sweetener because they have little powers left on the EU side.

They know people want change and what they are banking on, is which I think you are trying to point out (albeit using poor terminology), is that the majority of people will look at these restrictions and be fooled into believe it's covering the WHOLE of immigration, when in fact it's not.

spinoza

fair enough
This is where it gets difficult. For most issues (not only immigration) the government has to make unpopular decisions and explain this to the electorate. This government doesn't, but my guess is that any other plausible government won't either. But regardless of whether or not it's explained, that doesn't mean that the right thing to do is to blow off the unpopular decision.

I do understand that there are areas that are negatively impacted by immigration, but I keep saying that the correct policy response is not to restrict immigration, it's to solve the problem by other means (see my example on reallocating resources in the NHS).
I agree.

spinoza

I am usually this honest, believe it or not. I just don't go to dinner at places of people who can't cook

Anyway it's a shit analogy. Presumably the right thing for the UK is a good immigration policy. Saying other people's opinions are shit when they are is a good way of stopping people from barking up the wrong tree. If my hostess was trying something out on me in order to impress her husband, I wouldn't hold back with any criticism. If there were no adverse consequence to me lying about her cooking skills in order to make her feel good about herself, I wouldn't bother telling the truth.

Fitzjames

Spinoza.......can I first of all point out that I dont feel I should have a direct view on UK immigration policy. I am not overly concerned.

While clearly.....skilled workers are needed in a country such as Britain...and necessary workers (low paid agricultural for example).......I have from your posts formed the opinion (perhaps erroneously from bits and bobs in your postings) that you are a high earner in the City.
I spent 32 years as a UK civil servant so I suppose its all a matter of taste. Many would claim that this is a particuarly useless way to spend 32 years....Im inclined to agree.........but I am not sure how highly paid people in the City are either "skilled" or "necessary".......they would come a long way behind teachers and nurses in my humble opinion.
Id assume that you derive MORE personally from being in the UK....than the UK derives from your presence.

As you are already on the Electoral list, I fail to see how you and people like you need to be further accomodated by having any more FORMAL input than that.
That would actually give you more formal input than the rest of us.
A bit like saying.
"Thanks for the invite to the party......I would now like to change the guest list....and the menu"

I am all of course in favour of adding a little flavour to the gene pool.
One of the more interesting aspects of working as a very mediocre fraud investigator was the different attitudes to fraud.
For example......a person fiddling tax......is considered a veritable hero in the Daily Mail. Not so ..the person who fiddles employment benefit.

One of the "soft" industries for fraud investigators to look at is.....cash in hand employment......taxi drivers are easy. But also take away restaurants.
Ive seen takeaways being er taken away.........literally moving from say Nottingham to Bristol and a reciprocal arrangement, a veritable network of recipocracy based on extended family connexions.

Migration cant allowed to be a "conservative" or Daily Mail obsession. All of us agree that things change slightly (for the host population) when migrants arrive. Some reject any notion of change to phone Jon Gaunt......Im not worried about being mugged any more than ten years ago............but I do worry about the effect of a low paid economy where genuine reforms hard won by working class people (limit of hours worked, trade union membership, casual working in high health risk jobs etc) can be put into reverse....in the cause of being better for the economy. The exploitation of workers up to and including the sex trade is not good.

Frankly all host populations have been worried by influx of low paid workers. New York in 1850s had worries about the likes of me (Irish). And racists play to those fears.
My chief concern is the two tier economy of Europe......it could be argued of course that Greece, Ireland, Portugal were on the second tier of Europe but the differential in Bulgaria, Romania is off the scale. The effect of that migration is a cause for concern......happily not for me

Plechazunga

How do you work that out?

The UK gets Spin's taxes, his company's taxes from profits swelled by his efforts, plus his contribution to the general economic benefits of having a (usually) thriving financial service sector. Plus its citizens get a culinary education and an extra Man United fan.

Spin gets shit weather, shit transport, shit food and Chelsea fans... tempered only by his salary, OT and Scotch.

peterstorey

Grounds for summary deportation in my book (we're swamped, swamped).

Plechazunga

And we breed like rabbits

Wibble

Or we did until internet forums arrived

Plechazunga

peterstorey

Why do you think half the posts after midnight are incoherent? Can't you shag and post at the same time?

Fitzjames

Britain also gets more "greed is good" philosophy
And gets the benefit of Spins wisdom as to where it is going wrong.

Plechazunga

I don't think there's any evidence that importing talent in the financial sector creates a "greed is good" philosophy.

peterstorey

Fucking hell they swamp us, take our jobs and women and inculcate a "greed is good" philosophy.

Wibble

I suppose I could despite having the usual male problems with multitasking. However, I'm not sure how well the wireless works in the bedroom and given that the missus goes to bed at about 10pm because she has to get up early to commute into town I strongly suspect that me trying to shag her while she is asleep whilst tapping away on the laptop might be met with something other than warm endearments.

Plechazunga

I've posted from my bed a couple of times. Not while boning though.

If you have it off while, say, talking to Richter on the caf, does that make you gay?