National Shame

Plechazunga

Nationalists often talk about how we don't take enough pride in our history and values. But if you're going to have national pride, then surely you need to feel national shame too?

I can understand people not feeling either - it's a reasonable position not to feel pride in or remorse for something that you yourself haven't done.

But in my book if you're proud of, say, the Battle of Trafalgar, if you feel some of the glory rubs off on you, then you should feel shame for, say, the various massacres that took place in India under the British. If you're proud of Britain for being among the first to outlaw slavery, it makes no sense not to feel shame for her large part in developing and perpetuating slavery too.

Discuss it spasmos

Frosty

Can. Worms. Eboue.

marcosdeto

every country has it's skeletons on their closet

Plechazunga

Yours are in Lomas de Zamora

Frosty

I don't think that you can have a rational conversation about this topic. It is far too subjective, and politically charged too.

Plechazunga

That's never stopped us before...

Oh hang on, you said rational

marcosdeto

don't know what you mean about Lomas de Zamora, but during the XIX century argentina declared war on paraguay, wich, at that moment, was at war against Brazil and Uruguay -if my memory doesn't fail me, it was because paraguay asked the argentinian goverment to let their army to go across our territory in order to attack brazil, we said no, they crossed anyway, so we declared war on them-

one third of their male population died on that war, it was so bad that they hasn't recovered yet

at school when they teach us about that war, they always say that we should be ashamed of that, and i cant agree more

Steev

I don't remember studying "The British Empire" at school at all. But I do know that you don't conquer a third of the globe (or whatever it was) by being benevolent.

EDIT - I just wish we'd taken over places that were shit at cricket.

Plechazunga

Isn't that where they found all those bones from the Dirty War?

That sounds pretty reasonable tbh. You can't have armies just crossing your territory when you've refused permission.

Frosty

You will get people complaining about Britain's war crimes, and others saying that we civilised the world. Basically, it will be George Galloway versus Niall Ferguson.

Plechazunga

I'd like to see that, only as a fight to the death, using Black and Decker Powerdrills

marcosdeto

oh, yes, but at least then, we fucked ourselves, we didnt invade other country


with a formal protest and a claim for money or explanations should have been enough

Frosty

On the plus side, for Marcos at least, the British didn't succeed in annexing Argentina. This means that their cricket team is worse than ours at least.

crappycraperson

It is the same with everyone and everything.

Double standards.

As a general rule, just like being indoctrinated to follow a certain religion by your parents, you are brain washed to be patriotic and loyal to your country by the whole society. Just with religion, most people just play along with the latter. Some get really tribal about it while others may not be as strong flag wavers as others but when it comes down to it they will always back their country no matter what. Which brings us to your question, people will always relate with their country's achievements in past or present since by association they can feel happiness. The opposite is not a good deal for them so most just ignore it.

Plechazunga

I'm not really talking about a grand weighing-up of rights and wrongs though, Frosty. Even those who think, say, the Empire was broadly a Good Thing for all concerned must admit that some Bad Things were done too. All I'm saying is, if you're going to feel pride about the one, it only makes sense to feel shame about the other.

For instance, most of us feel some shame about Britain's current entanglement in Iraq, but pride at our work in Sierra Leone. Well if that's so for current events, why should it not be so for history?

marcosdeto

teach us how to play criquet, then give us a couple of years and we will be conquering the criquet world cup

Plechazunga

It's well put, crappy.

To remedy this, I propose a National Remorse Day, in which we all congregate around the statue of Bomber Harris, hear a speech by Galloway about what arseholes we are, then retire to a pub in Maidstone where a team of specially-trained Gurkhas poke us in the eye with sticks.

crappycraperson

Most Brits won't feel ashamed for Iraq though. They will deflect it on Blair's judgement or even argue it was justified. Even though you voted him in again.

Same with British empire or even worse. Actually my theory is that Hitler essentially took off the heat from British for their colonial massacres. Alllies came off a good side after the WWII and all the focus was on Holocaust. By the time it was their turn to get stick, it turned out French did a lot worse and hence again British got put on the back burner. Never truly on world stage ever British got lynched for their empire's misadventures. Hence, there is no need for acknowledgement from Govt or people.

Plechazunga

Again, very true

Shut the fuck up will you, you're making me feel bad about myself

ralphie88

Good point.

Frosty

Too complex.

I don't think that it is possible to have a discussion without reducing it to grand historicising. People tend to reduce events to simple dualities - right/wrong, good/evil etc. They also reduce complex scenarios to simpler ones, so that they can get their head round it. Just look at Iraq, or any political situation - things are much more complicated then they are ever made out in reports or the news.

Very true. People will always justify or differentiate events.

crappycraperson

I had a very funny conversation with the Chinese chick I went out with regarding Tibet. It was pretty amazing, how brain washed she seemed to be.

crappycraperson

On a brighter note for you english, it seems now everyone hates yanks more than you lot. I felt bad for the Texas girl in my German class when teacher for some reason went on tirade against wars started for oil by "some" countries and then few people chipped in with "blood for oil".

Plechazunga

But that's what I'm saying, even someone who thinks the Empire was largely good will admit that there were times when we acted wrongly. (I'm talking about reasonable people here, it doesn't apply to Kilroy). The line in Blackadder about how being in the army was fun when our enemies were armed with sharpened mangos and guava halves, and at the end of battles instead of taking prisoners we just made an enormous fruit salad, will have raised a laugh of recognition across the country.

For my argument to hold, the scores don't need to be equal, we just need to have let a few in from time to time.

Wibble

I always feel very conflicted with English patriotism because despite all the good stuff there are many things that we did, despite being part and parcel of attitudes and norms of the time, were far from pride inspiring.

Here in Australia I and the current government have no direct responsibility for the wrongs perpetrated on Aboriginal people in the past but I think Rudd was quite right to offer an apology.

Plechazunga

He should have apologised for sledging, Murdoch, Rolf Harris and Frente! while he was at it.

Frosty

I don't think we are disagreeing. You have a good idea, I just doubt whether it is possible to have this discussion before we devolve into a simple 'Britain is evil'/'Britain is great' argument.

I also think it's difficult for people to admit to fallabilities of their country. Just look at the current US election.

crappycraperson

It's a pipe dream. You are living in world where you would still find people claiming Holocaust was a hoax.

Wibble

There are some things you should never apologise for.