[Scrumpet]

Originally Posted by Irwinwastheking

What was the evidence against him that was more damning than the dna?

At a guess, I'd imagine there was something to tie him to the gun rather than just evidence that suggests he was in the car at one point.

[Gaz.]

Thats 3 murders he's been charged for and got off with!

Something's not right

Not happy with this ruling, currently 20 PSNI Landrovers sitting outside Antrim Courthouse too

[Scrumpet]

Originally Posted by Irwinwastheking

What was the evidence against him that was more damning than the dna?

This has been added to the bbc report:

In his judgement on Brian Shivers, Judge Anthony Hart drew attention to Shivers' role in attempting to dispose of the getaway car used in the murders.

He said there could be no doubt that the person who set fire to the Cavalier played an essential part in the murderous attack because by setting fire to the car they were trying to destroy it, and so destroy any evidence that might lead to the arrest of those involved.

He said that he was satisfied that Shivers' DNA was found on the two matches found on the back seat of the Cavalier, and that those matches were used to set fire to the car before all those present left the scene.

He also said that Shivers had lied about his whereabouts and actions on the night of the murders.

Judge Hart concluded: "I am satisfied that the prosecution has proved beyond reasonable doubt that Shivers set fire to the Cavalier at Ranaghan Road and I therefore find him guilty on each count on the indictment."

[PJ]

The thing that's bugging me is, Shivers has/had a Protestant girlfriend for 6 years. In my experience, if someone's bitter enough to consider doing what he's been found guilty of, then they're not going to look twice at a woman from "the other side". And that must have made the IRA meetings before it a bit awkward...

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by PJ

The thing that's bugging me is, Shivers has/had a Protestant girlfriend for 6 years. In my experience, if someone's bitter enough to consider doing what he's been found guilty of, then they're not going to look twice at a woman from "the other side". And that must have made the IRA meetings before it a bit awkward...

I've always had the impression, maybe wrongly, that the Catholics were mainly involved in a political struggle, and the Protestants in a religious one.

[PJ]

Well, (and I'm using Catholic=nationalist Protestant=unionist as a generalisation here, I know it's not a hard and fast rule), the way I see it is that politically, we are in the Union, so the Catholics are struggling against the status quo, whereas if you compare the Protestant churches to the Catholic one, then Catholicism is the larger/ the status quo that the Protestants are struggling against.

[Red Dreams]

damn. I thought all this was all done and dusted.

[Sir Matt]

I'm reading Patriot Games right now so all of this is rather apropos.

[An Irish Red]

Originally Posted by Livvie

I've always had the impression, maybe wrongly, that the Catholics were mainly involved in a political struggle, and the Protestants in a religious one.

That would be correct.

[The Neviller]

Originally Posted by Livvie

I've always had the impression, maybe wrongly, that the Catholics were mainly involved in a political struggle, and the Protestants in a religious one.

Don't agree at all. It's as much as both on either side. The Catholic side of the struggle (not all though, from personal experience) is political in that they want a United Ireland. Or government separate from the Union. The Protestant side of the struggle is that they don't want either, and want the Union to remain.

[The Neviller]

Originally Posted by An Irish Red

That would be correct.

Care to elaborate this sweeping statement?

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by The Neviller

Don't agree at all. It's as much as both on either side. The Catholic side of the struggle (not all though, from personal experience) is political in that they want a United Ireland. Or government separate from the Union. The Protestant side of the struggle is that they don't want either, and want the Union to remain.

Isn't one of the Protestants main reasons for wanting the Union to remain, the fact that they don't want to be 'ruled by Rome'.

[The Neviller]

Originally Posted by Livvie

Isn't one of the Protestants main reasons for wanting the Union to remain, the fact that they don't want to be 'ruled by Rome'.

I'm a Protestant, I want to remain part of the Union. I don't give a shite about what goes on in Rome. I'm a Unionist, but I'm not a religious bigot.

[The Neviller]

The way you put it simplifies it as the Catholic side of the "struggle" being a romantic one of politicism and freedom, with the Protestant side being pure religious bigotry and unacceptance. That's not the case at all.

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by The Neviller

I'm a Protestant, I want to remain part of the Union. I don't give a shite about what goes on in Rome. I'm a Unionist, but I'm not a religious bigot.

There are plenty who were.

[The Neviller]

Originally Posted by Livvie

There are plenty who were.

There are plenty on both sides who are. Doesn't mean everyone on both sides are. You're getting close to the realms of generalising to the extent of damning everyone of a particular religion here.

[An Irish Red]

Originally Posted by The Neviller

The way you put it simplifies it as the Catholic side of the "struggle" being a romantic one of politicism and freedom, with the Protestant side being pure religious bigotry and unacceptance. That's not the case at all.

There was nothing romantic about anything that happened here. People suffered for decades and achieved very little, on any side.

Republicans were capable of being sectarian (Kingsmill for example) but religion was never the defining feature like it was for the armed loyalist groups. Gusty Spences motto for the UVF was; "If you can't get a gunman get a taig". If the provos went out and shot a british soldier the loyalists would respond by dragging a catholic civilian into a romper room and torturing him to death.

Religion was the motivating factor for loyalist groups, their actions show that.

[The Neviller]

Originally Posted by An Irish Red

There was nothing romantic about anything that happened here. People suffered for decades and achieved very little, on any side.

Republicans were capable of being sectarian (Kingsmill for example) but religion was never the defining feature like it was for the armed loyalist groups. Gusty Spences motto for the UVF was; "If you can't get a gunman get a taig". If the provos went out and shot a british soldier the loyalists would respond by dragging a catholic civilian into a romper room and torturing him to death.

Religion was the motivating factor for loyalist groups, their actions show that.

Did the provo's only kill armed forces then? No everyday, normal Protestant civilians were killed for simply being Protestant?

[The Neviller]

The way the statement I was responding to was put was that Catholics in Northern Ireland were politically motivated, Protestants were religiously motivated. The UVF, UDA, whichever terrorist group you want to name, do not represent me. I'm a Protestant and a Unionist, I am not a bigot. Nothing is religiously motivated for me. Sweeping statements like this are dangerous.

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by The Neviller

There are plenty on both sides who are. Doesn't mean everyone on both sides are.

I never said they were.

Originally Posted by Livvie

I've always had the impression, maybe wrongly, that the Catholics were mainly involved in a political struggle, and the Protestants in a religious one.

Neither have I made sweeping generalisations. Just said what impression I've had.

[The Neviller]

Originally Posted by Livvie

I never said they were.

Why single out one side to be religiously bigoted though, and another not?

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by The Neviller

Why single out one side to be religiously bigoted though, and another not?

As explained above, I said it was the impression I'd always had, and I made a point of saying that it could have been the wrong one.

Probably had that impression because of the fact that for a long time, Catholics were treated as second class citizens in Northern Ireland.

[The Neviller]

Originally Posted by Livvie

I never said they were.



Neither have I made sweeping generalisations. Just said what impression I've had.

Fair enough, my apologies. Mind if I say your impression is wrong, as far as the common, decent, everyday man is concerned?

[An Irish Red]

Originally Posted by The Neviller

The way the statement I was responding to was put was that Catholics in Northern Ireland were politically motivated, Protestants were religiously motivated. The UVF, UDA, whichever terrorist group you want to name, do not represent me. I'm a Protestant and a Unionist, I am not a bigot. Nothing is religiously motivated for me. Sweeping statements like this are dangerous.

I'm pretty sure the statement was referring to the more militant sections of each community, not the average man on the ground.

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by An Irish Red

I'm pretty sure the statement was referring to the more militant sections of each community, not the average man on the ground.

Absolutely.

I've no doubts at all that the majority of people in NI were - are - peace-loving, decent people.

[The Neviller]

Originally Posted by Livvie

As explained above, I said it was the impression I'd always had, and I made a point of saying that it could have been the wrong one.

Yeah, my mistake. I apologised previously. It was more your impression and then someone else stating it was correct that got me. We're not all the same, I have alot of very good friends who are Catholic/Nationalists, I don't hate them because of their religion. I disagree with their political beliefs, but their religion is never an issue for me, neither is mine for them.

[The Neviller]

Originally Posted by An Irish Red

I'm pretty sure the statement was referring to the more militant sections of each community, not the average man on the ground.

Aye fair enough. I don't get the point in the differentiation though, murder for political gain is no better than murder due to religious beliefs. Neither side were particularly discriminate as to who they killed.

[PJ]

Originally Posted by Livvie

As explained above, I said it was the impression I'd always had, and I made a point of saying that it could have been the wrong one.

Probably had that impression because of the fact that for a long time, Catholics were treated as second class citizens in Northern Ireland.

Now let's not bring inconvenient facts into this.

[The Neviller]

Originally Posted by PJ

Now let's not bring inconvenient facts into this.

No let's continue with sweeping generalisations and project them onto normal people who don't give a shit what religion anyone is.

[Irwinwastheking]

Originally Posted by The Neviller

No let's continue with sweeping generalisations and project them onto normal people who don't give a shit what religion anyone is.

The bolded part wasn't a sweeping generalisation. It was a simple fact of how things were for a huge amount of people in NI.

Anyway, lets not try to turn this thread into a them vs us thread. I'm pretty sure no-one here is like that. We all hold our our beliefs dear, and heve to make an effort to respect each others rights and beliefs. Remember cacs on page one of this thread. We all came together in condemning this and I'm pretty sue we are all happy that this guy if guilty (I know nothing of the case hence the 'if') was convicted. Try to keep the debate about the past difference to another thread if possible. Maybe we should re-open the Carling nations cup thread.

[The Neviller]

Originally Posted by Irwinwastheking

The bolded part wasn't a sweeping generalisation. It was a simple fact of how things were for a huge amount of people in NI.

Anyway, lets not try to turn this thread into a them vs us thread. I'm pretty sure no-one here is like that. We all hold our our beliefs dear, and heve to make an effort to respect each others rights and beliefs. Remember cacs on page one of this thread. We all came together in condemning this and I'm pretty sue we are all happy that this guy if guilty (I know nothing of the case hence the 'if') was convicted. Try to keep the debate about the past difference to another thread if possible. Maybe we should re-open the Carling nations cup thread.

I get that people suffered prejudice, but everyone on all sides of our country suffered. I've no desire for any "them v us" feelings, but generalisations get made that paints sections of the community as being a particular way inclined, that just isn't always true. There are wrongs and wrong doers on both sides of the divide in this country, and we as everyday, law-abiding citizens have always been the ones caught in the middle.

I didnt notice cacs story before I posted here, heartbreaking for the fella and I sympathise with him for his loss. It's truly sad the hurt that has been caused to this country by evil men, irrespective of their agenda, intent on savagery.

One thing we need to always remember is that as much as there is bad on both sides, there are good on both sides too. We all have our lives to lead, and we'd all rather live it in peace. Let's not demonise people on what was classed once as "the opposite side of the divide" for acts carried out by people who do not represent their wishes.

[Irwinwastheking]

Originally Posted by The Neviller

I get that people suffered prejudice, but everyone on all sides of our country suffered. I've no desire for any "them v us" feelings, but generalisations get made that paints sections of the community as being a particular way inclined, that just isn't always true. There are wrongs and wrong doers on both sides of the divide in this country, and we as everyday, law-abiding citizens have always been the ones caught in the middle.

I didnt notice cacs story before I posted here, heartbreaking for the fella and I sympathise with him for his loss. It's truly sad the hurt that has been caused to this country by evil men, irrespective of their agenda, intent on savagery.

One thing we need to always remember is that as much as there is bad on both sides, there are good on both sides too. We all have our lives to lead, and we'd all rather live it in peace. Let's not demonise people on what was classed once as "the opposite side of the divide" for acts carried out by people who do not represent their wishes.

Here here!

Possibly we could start an Irish history thread at some stage, and really debate the finer points of the history of or Island, but I fear that the thread would be ruined by wummers and too many of us are to quick to bite. I know that Livvie was not wumming there, but look how easy it is to wind someone up about this subject. Maybe this is something we should consign to history and keep this space for speaking about strictly current events.

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by Irwinwastheking

Here here!

Possibly we could start an Irish history thread at some stage, and really debate the finer points of the history of or Island, but I fear that the thread would be ruined by wummers and too many of us are to quick to bite. I know that Livvie was not wumming there, but look how easy it is to wind someone up about this subject. Maybe this is something we should consign to history and keep this space for speaking about strictly current events.

Good idea but I fear an Irish history thread would be just the same as this one. It's obviously too raw to be discussed without upsetting someone. I'm sorry if I did that. It wasn't my intention.

[philipb231190]

Homes evacuated after two bombs explode in Londonderry | Metro.co.uk

Derry....the City of Culture 2013!

[Irwinwastheking]

Originally Posted by Livvie

Good idea but I fear an Irish history thread would be just the same as this one. It's obviously too raw to be discussed without upsetting someone. I'm sorry if I did that. It wasn't my intention.

Don't worry Livvie, no-one will be really offended by anything you have said I hope. If they were then they had seriously soft skin after growing up in NI. This type of thread needs to be really well moderated, but I think we have done a decent job so far.

Originally Posted by philipb231190

Homes evacuated after two bombs explode in Londonderry | Metro.co.uk

Derry....the City of Culture 2013!

That's next year man, this year it's;

Derry....the City of Cunts 2012

[The Neviller]

Originally Posted by Livvie

Good idea but I fear an Irish history thread would be just the same as this one. It's obviously too raw to be discussed without upsetting someone. I'm sorry if I did that. It wasn't my intention.

Nah you're cool Livvie, I'm not at all upset. It was my mistake anyway, I misread what was being said and thought Protestants were being portrayed as religiously motivated. My fault entirely. No offence caused whatsoever, and my apologies for mistaking what you were saying. No harm done eh?

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by The Neviller

Nah you're cool Livvie, I'm not at all upset. It was my mistake anyway, I misread what was being said and thought Protestants were being portrayed as religiously motivated. My fault entirely. No offence caused whatsoever, and my apologies for mistaking what you were saying. No harm done eh?

Thanks. My fault too.

[The Neviller]

Originally Posted by Livvie

Thanks. My fault too.

Nah not really. You simply gave an opinion of something you've known from a distance, and an impression you got from the view you had of the situation. I took it as a generalisation, that was my fault.

[Livvie]

Originally Posted by The Neviller

Nah not really. You simply gave an opinion of something you've known from a distance, and an impression you got from the view you had of the situation. I took it as a generalisation, that was my fault.

Oh, alright then.

[Irwinwastheking]

xxx love you guys!!