Osama Bin Laden is dead

mjs020294

There were no US bases in Saudi pre-911. They had personnel stationed there (Saudi Arabia's Prince Sultan Air Base) but no official US bases. The UN placed sanctions on Iraq.

And why the constant references to your", I am English. And did it every occur to you the Saudis court the US because they do not like or trust many of their neighbors.

Raoul

You're clutching at straws a bit here. There's a difference between the ISI, a government organization, training members of the Pakistani Taliban, the Haqqani network, and hosting Bin Ladin in a mansion for five years - and private Saudi Al-Qaeda members, who by all accounts had no relationship with the Saudi government.

RedKaos

The biggest source of funding for the likes of Al-Qaeda comes from Saudi Arabia (see Wikileaks cable : US embassy cables: Hillary Clinton says Saudi Arabia 'a critical source of terrorist funding' | World news | guardian.co.uk), the Saudis have evidently done very little to cease such activities. So why is there no pressure on them? Furthermore, thats not even accounting for the radical sunni terrorists in Iraq responsible for killing thousands of Iraqis, many of which receive support from Saudi Arabia.

MikeUpNorth

I'd be surprised if there was no diplomatic pressure on them.

Raoul

That may be the case, but it doesn't do much to reinforce your point because the Saudi Government has to maintain a delicate balancing act between its foreign obligations and the pressure it faces from clerical interests from within. So to suggest the royal family harbored the 9/11 hijackers, and as such, is comparable to the ISI training and harboring terrorists is wildly misleading.

RedKaos

What difference does it make whether you have a military base or a military presence? Its still a foreign military presence either way.

And look at the Saudi borders - everyone of those countries maintain good relations with Saudi Arabia. The only country they distrust is Iran but thats only because they dislike the form of Islam they follow - hence its a bigoted distrust. They're only courting the US because its their $$ which has turned their degenerate royal family into one of the richest legacies in the world, they're also counting on you to weaken Iran so that their backward interpretation of religion which would dominate the region.

Raoul

Why do you keep referring to MJS as "you"?

RedKaos

I'm not comparing the ISI to the Saudi royal family. I'm pointing to the bemusing fact that the Saudis get off scot-free despite doing close to nothing in addressing the terrorist core that breathes within their borders. Its the Middle Eastern heart of Islamic radicalism..surely that should prompt some concern from the secular world?

RedKaos

Freudian slip.

In all honesty I know he's a British expat but its a force of habit considering most who those I debate who tend to defend US policy tend to be Americans themselves. Either way why does it matter?

Raoul

It was you who brought up Saudi Arabia in the same breath as the ISI. Why not stick to the original point of Pakistan and spare this thread the usual sectarian anti-Saudi rhetoric.

mjs020294

The US maintains a military presence and personnel all over the world. That very presence has for the most part kept the world relatively safe since WW2. Of course it comes with issues as well, like religious lunatics taking offense at all things infidel and using it has an excuse to murder people in criminal attacks.

The real irony is the US has never really had much of a presence in the middle east.

RedKaos

That list stops at 1988, the numbers shoot up post 1990.

mjs020294

1990-1995 is irreverent because there was a UN sanction war and escalation of military presence. In the late 90s the draw-down was nearly complete.

Sir Matt

Taliban will rule Afghanistan again, says leaked US report | World news | guardian.co.uk

Color me surprised...

Sir Matt

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012...in-laden-body/

This guy claims he found Osama's body. I'm completely convinced, how about you guys?

Announcing it on the anniversary of his death couldn't be a coincidence.

VidaRed

200km west of surat is within Indian territory. I doubt american planes crossed the border without anyone doing anything. Moreover why would he be dumped there in the first place ? He has been dumped in international waters...probably somewhere near saudi arabia in the arabian sea.

His claim full of shit!

Sir Matt

I wasn't being serious. By now, his body would have decayed or been eaten by organisms. The only things likely to be left are some shattered bones, possibly a round or two of lead. I'm not sure why this guy wasted so much money trying to find it...

VidaRed

Pakistan jails doctor who helped CIA find Bin Laden

A Pakistani doctor who helped the CIA find Osama Bin Laden has been jailed for at least 30 years, officials say. Shakil Afridi was charged with treason and tried under the tribal justice system for running a fake vaccination programme to gather information. The US secretary of state Hillary Clinton had called for his release on the grounds that his work served Pakistani and American interests.

Bin Laden was killed by US forces in Abbottabad in May 2011. The killing triggered a rift between the US and Pakistan, whose government was seriously embarrassed to find Bin Laden had been living in Pakistan. Islamabad felt the covert US operation was a violation of its sovereignty.

Shortly after the raid on Bin Laden's house, Dr Afridi was arrested for conspiring against the state of Pakistan. Pakistan has insisted that any country would have done the same if it found one of its citizens working for a foreign spy agency.

Dr Afridi has been found guilty in Khyber district, and has also been fined $3,500. If he does not pay the fine his prison sentence will be extended by a further three years. Under the tribal justice system, the administrative head of a tribal district performs the function of a judge. Typically, this means a court will often deliver swift justice and does not necessarily follow the regular judicial procedures. Dr Afridi, who is now being held in jail in Peshawar, was not present in court so was unable to give his side of the story.

Mistake?

The BBC's Aleem Maqbool in Islamabad says that many outside observers are concerned that most of the people detained since Bin Laden's killing have been those who were trying to help capture him, rather than those who helped shield him.

In June, Pakistani army officials told the BBC that some suspects were arrested for helping the Americans refuel their helicopters during the raid. Others were detained because they were suspected of firing flares to guide the helicopters towards the compound.

It is not clear if Dr Afridi knew who the target of the investigation was when the CIA recruited him, or what DNA he managed to collect in the fake hepatitis B vaccination programme. The idea was to obtain a blood sample from one of the children living in the Abbottabad compound, so that DNA tests could determine whether or not they were relatives of Bin Laden, our correspondent says.

Both US Defence secretary Leon Panetta and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton have said Dr Afridi's arrest was a mistake and called for his release. Speaking in January, Mr Panetta said: "Dr Afridi was not in any way treasonous towards Pakistan. For them to take this kind of action against somebody who was helping to go after terrorism, I just think is a real mistake on their part."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18175964

Sir Matt

He shouldn't have helped find his country's #1 guest. If he had helped keep him hidden, he'd have had no such issues.

Theon

You would think America would protect them a bit better, who is going to help the CIA next if they can expect to be locked up for 30 years because of it?

Sounds like a complete joke of a trial, he wasn't even present to give his side of the story.

Sir Matt

It was a joke. They let the tribal system handle it because it would be sure to convict him in retaliation for aiding the US in the search for Bin Laden. It also lets the broader Pakistani government take a hands off approach and say they had nothing to do with it. Tribal governments have divergent interests from the national Pakistani government, and public opinion is often very different from what the Pakistani government sees as the best interest of Pakistan.

It was appeasement.

mjs020294

The US should insist the guy is released. Just withhold the aid we send them for a month they'll soon stick him on a plane to NY.

VidaRed

If the US cared about this doctor then he would already be settled in NY.

Theon

Indeed, really strange that they just left him. Makes them look very bad to be honest.

crappycraperson

TBF not everyone wants to move from their homeland no matter how dangerous it may be.

Sir Matt

I think after it happened it was more difficult to get him out than it would have been before. Given Pakistan's very tight control of everything in the aftermath, getting him afterwards would have been near impossible. The news about his operation came out fairly soon afterwards and couldn't be ignored. Getting him out before might have been better, but it could also have raised red flags.

We really should have made lots of effort to protect him though. US-Pakistani relations are awful right now so I can't see much happening. Zardari is surely pissed off about not being seen by the President this past week, plus the other incidents.

VidaRed

Getting in and out of pakistan is quite easy on the afghan border! The drones, afghan soldiers, taliban, other militants, drug dealers cross the border on a daily basis.

Plus there are multiple yank bases in pakistan..the doctor could have easily driven to one of them and then he could be easily flown to afghanistan and from there to anywhere in the world.

mjs020294

I am sure the US made lots of effort to protect him. And I am sure they will continue to pressure for his release. Once they're out of Afghanistan they can put real pressure on Pakistan by cutting aid subsidies.

Sir Matt

Yeah, I know it's easy, but removing him afterwards after the Pakistani government found out about him would have been very difficult. Doing it before would have been easy.

mjs020294

Could always send Seal Team 6 back in.

Tibs

Did they not all die in a helicopter crash or did I read wrong?

VidaRed

Obama just blocked a move to cut aid.

Trionz

Pakistan is such a mess.

Raoul

That's not how it works. The U.S. needs to calm relations with Pakistan to reestablish war supply routes into Afghanistan. Since the raid they've been using Central Asia to get supplies in, which is very costly and inefficient. Now it looks like they've finally gotten to the point where supplies can come in through Pakistan again. Going to bat for this guy would have simply undermined everything during a delicate period of negotiations.

Sir Matt

Yep. The best way for him to have been extracted would have been prior to the operation, but his absence might have been noticed. Plus, if he could stay undercover, he'd have been a good asset to have there in case things didn't work out.

Neutral

I'm over the moon Osama is dead...and think Pakistan is fucked up, but this guy was always going to be called a traitor, and his trial would have been the same in every country.

I'm actually surprised, they went through the whole process of a trial, I thought they'd simply have him gunned down in front of his doorsteps one day.