Racism

Cali Red

I think there are obviously going to be some people who dislike him for racisit reasons only, and they are idiots. But it is used all too frequently for people who diagree with his politics. There has never been a more popular candidate in my opinion and if I remember right he was still black then....

And the comparision to the UK is a bit off I think. I mean hell there was just a tv shot of some idiot at the Liverpool match making racisit gestures this weekend. Not to mention Evra constantly got bood the whole match. And it happens throughout Europe on a bit of a regular basis. I can't think of too many incidents like that in the US. I'm sure there are but it's not pervasive.

Raoul

I find that racism is alive and well in Europe, at a time when its be largely blunted in the states.

Red Dreams

The tea Party is pretty racist CR...a minority but still a significant minority. These people cannot live with the fact that a black man is the President and is in their 'white house'

Just look at how poplular Newt's code words are... He is still leading in the general GOP polls. Ok it is not all due to his race baiting. But it shows that to that many...it is not an issue.

Racism is still a significant problem in the US imo...but when I see younger people, I have hope...because I see many of them do not see teh difference.

mjs020294

You really can't use what you observe at football matches as a barometer because the Brits are very different to Americans at sports events. I lived in the UK for 35 years, vacationed in the US for two decades, and have lived in the US for over a decade. Brits may boo at football games and people may dislike certain races BUT in the US there are still large numbers that truly believe they are superior to African Americans.

The racism brought about by segregation isn't one way either, African Americans can be fairly racist as well. When people still remember segregation its fairly obvious that many of those old racist feeling will still be there.

Plechazunga

Race is just a wholly different issue in the US, it's a partly healed, partly still festering wound in a country basically founded on slavery and which still has an immense black underclass.

Racism in Britain is like racism in most places, there's plenty of narrow-minded bigots, out-of-touch old codgers, and black people in poverty... but not a whole geographical swathe of the country that positively identifies with its slave-owning past.

mjs020294

Agreed.

brad-dyrak

Cali Red's right. Racism really isn't what's stoking that fire. I really think too much is made of the state of race relations in the US from folks not living here. It does have a unique history to be sure, and there's still a long way t go, but it's too easy a connection. Honestly, I don't reckon that's what's pushing it.

I reckon it's just self-propagating process that's taken on a momentum of its own. Starting back with the coup that was the moral majority, there's been a more tangible identity which at the time gave it a certain strength as they could clearly define a (self-righteous) platform and take unequivocal positions decisively. That sort of decisiveness is always going to appeal to a good many. As their ranks grew and it became the defacto populist brand of conservative , the other more interesting brands of republican faded out. The party realizes that is its "base" and did what it could to play to it as well as gerrymandering to reinforce it. The rise of the polemic right wing radio and Fox News fanned the flames. So you've got this religiously self-identified clique that's only listening to itself, is goaded on by it's press and it's elected politicians.

Anytime you've got a group of same thinking (and frankly close minded), things are only going to veer to the extreme, and that really goes for any such group. It's a poor explanation on my part, but I'm quite sure of it. I've known a fair few conservatives and have seen how that party has devolved, shedding most of its interesting ideas and beliefs in favor reciting the same stale sounds bytes. A good view into all this is how the whole fundamentalist creationism thing has come back to light. It's a shameful ignorance that could only exist in a closed intellectual vacuum.

I don't actually see that things have gotten that much worse with the vitriol in general. That bizarre carnival that is the collectin of republican candidates have certainly barfed up all sorts of vitriol, but looking back on some earlier republican antics I don't see it as so much worse. Not sure if anyone remembers that treatment Hilary has always gotten, even when she was the first lady. When she tried to champion a new health care plan during Bill's terms, they were slinging all sorts of scurilous things her way.

mjs020294

I live in the US, and so does my wife by coincidence. We are both in agreement real racism is more of a problem in the US that the UK It exhibits itself differently but its definitely still there.

Cali Red

Large numbers? I disagree. And if I'm seeing at a football match am I to believe they leave the match and then everything is forgotten? I mean saying the cultures act differently at a sporting event seems like an excuse or diminishing it in some way.

Again, I assume you're referring to the south, and I'm not sure about the term "positively identifies". Most Americans are not full of pride about slavery. I lived in the south, North Carolina, and while I considered a lot of people I ran into what I would call "backwards ass hicks" I also didn't see any proud of slavery.

We still have a long way to go with race relations in this country but I get a bit tired of seeing and hearing the things outside this country that are considered quirky cultural differences. I don't know but the next time a banana lands on the Golden State Warriors court at a basketball game I'll let you know. It happens in Europe. And not to belabor the Liverpool match, it's just recent, but there was the idiot in the stands and the booing of a player that had been racially abused.


I mean hell what was this a football match or a NASCAR event.....

I'm kidding NASCAR fans

mjs020294

Brits are far more confrontational and aggressive at sporting events. Its normal to boo on mass, that doesn't mean everyone is being racist towards Evra.

Unless you have lived for a long period of time in the UK you really are not in a position to make much of a judgement TBH. The UK is a much more racially integrated society, and its probably a couple of decades ahead of the US in many ways.

Ubik

There is definitely something extremely sinister about Liverpool's treatment of Evra, I'll say that. As much as anything, it demonstrates how tribalism can turn normal people into scumbags. And there were plenty of outright racists that showed up because of it as well. Whilst booing is a common thing, particularly with such a rivalry as United-Liverpool, you never quite expect someone to be booed...due to having been racially abused. Their winning goal just left me feeling sick due to the people involved (Evra mistake, Kuyt goal, Suarez celebration) even more than the result.

Then there's the EDL and BNP.

From what I can gather of the views on Obama over there, would it be fair to say that a lot of folk just seem to regard him as...un-American? There's the general and barely disguised xenophobia (the frequent mention of "Hussein" and relating it to Islam, the whole "birther" bullshit) to some of his "Godless" social policies and his downright "socialist!" attitudes towards healthcare and general government tax and spending. They seem to basically think he's an atheist Soviet foreigner, despite him having lived an almost textbook American dream, and seemingly governed from the dead centre for his term (some would even say to the right). I'll never quite understand it, just crossing my fingers that sense prevails in November.

sglowrider

Speaking of perceived un-racist behaviour: Race-rap star fan is ‘monkey’ quiz man | The Sun |News

No one ever thinks they are a racist in their little minds. I lived in Kansas for a few years... some dont know how insular they are, so they just dont think they are.

mjs020294

May I suggest 'The Soccer Tribe' by Desmond Morris. It very definitely is tribal behavior and not racism for the most part. I can remember crowds at Old Trafford making monkey noises and even holding up bananas when rival players touch the ball.

Raoul

I'm not talking about football. Europe (or at least parts of it) seem to be in a threatened identity crisis. I've observed several instances of this during my 5 months in Hungary. Overt things that generally don't happen much in the U.S. anymore.

mjs020294

I think its often more nationalism that manifests itself has racism in Europe. In the US their is still a fair amount of self imposed segregation. Its very subtle though in day to day life.

For instance I work with a variety of people, and there is no friction or racism. However if you go to many African Americans Facebook page the overwhelming number of their friends will be black. You check a black persons FB page that lives in the UK and their friends will pretty much match the demographics of the country as a whole, apart from the family members may skew the numbers.

We have been to multiple parties at our mixed race (Black/Espanic) friends house next door and we are the only white people there. Their friends are people they work or have worked with but invariably they befriend their own race. I just didn't see that happening to anywhere near the same degree back in the UK.

brad-dyrak

That wasn't my point, and I'm not here to argue which country is more racist. Merely saying that folks from other countries seem to have a skewed view of racism here in the states. It's understandable given slavery's very different history in the Americas.

The point was that I reckon it's too simple to point at a perceived racism as the cause for a rather vociferous opposition to Obama.

Raoul

Nationalism has played a part in the past, but the latest narrative has to do with a securitized mindset of identity loss, which makes sense when you scratch below the surface. The French headscarf law, the Swiss minaret ban, Gert Wilders and the Dutch "burqa" ban, a variety of incidents I've seen in Hungary, as well as plenty of academic literature on the anxieties resulting from a fear of identity loss among European populations due to increased migration patters. A fear among a growing segment of whites that increased heterogeneity is obscuring who they and what their countries are to themselves.

brad-dyrak

I would certainly agree with that. Self-segregation still seems quite a bit more common here, though it also varies widely depending on where and how you live.

brad-dyrak

Definitely have seen the same things scattered around Europe. I wouldn't dare to be extrapolating anything universal, as what I experienced was purely episodic. Having said that though, some of the experiences were really quite jarring. An Italian cabbie, a Czech shopkeep, Russian cops, an English hotelier etc. Like you said, not the sort of overt thing you see over here anymore. I had to wonder if it was perhaps that skewed perception of contemporary race relations I think many have when thinking of the States that made them assume I want to hear that shit. Very bizarre.

crappycraperson

I have never lived in US but have in Europe for 4 years. Loads of my friends have though lived in US for quite some time and when we had a conversation regarding our respective stays, this was one of the these things that came out. Bar the odd one out, almost all were exclusively in an Indian group there with Americans only really being acquaintances. While my and my other friends' experience in Europe was that it was very easy to mingle in an European group be it Italian, Spanish. Germans were the only one who were somewhat closed. Essentially people in US are too PC IMO so even though you are less likely to explicitly get racially abused in US than Europe, you are also less likely to mix in as easily.

Bury Red

The US is such a bloody big place and the split along the Mason Dixon Line still so recent that it's very difficult to generalise on race issues. What you can say though is that 2 generations is nothing like enough time to completely get over segregation so while the general trend in the states is towards improved race relations and integration there are still undercurrents of resentment and it's likely that there will be for many generations to come until the disparity between races on issues like employment, salary and criminalisation are erased.

Racism's still alive and well in Europe too but rather than being a mess that is gradually improving it tends to come and go in synch with the economic well being of individual nations. In the UK it was bad in the 70s and early 80s when I was growing up but had improved dramatically through the late 80s and 90s. Unfortunately the economic troughs we have struggled to get out of since the late 90s have plunged things back to the same sort of levels.

Having lived away since 2000 it shocks me when I talk to people back home or read the papers while our daughter who largely grew up in SE Asia and didn't even know what racism was is horrified by a lot of what she sees now she is studying back at home.

Other areas of Europe followed their own economic cycles though, when I lived in France in the early 90s Le Penn and his cronies were at their peak and there were facist skinheads openly wearing swastikas on the streets of the poorer areas of Lyon, Grenoble, Marseille while the police were little better, a mixed race mate of mine was set upon by 3 cops and an alsatian for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and could barely walk for a month afterwards. Italy at the same time was even more frightening, one particular trip to Florence with a coach load of mates including a few Algerians and Senegalese got particularly hairy.

In Western Europe it's not so much racism as xenophobic protectionism driven by economic woes and is usually directed at the newest arrivals, only the post 911 anti muslim sentiment is truly racist. In Eastern Europe it ends to be more historically driven along sectarian boundaries with true racism reserved for the Roma population.

cinc

Racism towards gipsies is bad and widespread over here. The problem is that there are a huge or even overwhelming number of them who indeed live a criminal livestyle. So even the most liberal Hungarian dont want to live around them. They even have euphemisms for it. "Its a noisy neighborhood". Noone wants to solve this very real problem, apart from Jobbik, the far right party - but their whole appeal is to offer horrible solutions for real problems.


Antisemitism is widespread too, even though most are not aware who is and who isnt a jew. There arent many of us left.

Plechazunga

Holy shit, Bury Red in the house

Yes we can

Plechazunga

Same in Romania. Educated people, teachers etc., when they found out I was Jewish, just had no idea where to look or what to say, and tended to end up mumbling something about being good with money as an attempt to be polite. Jews are widely considered to run the country, even though there aren't really any actual Jews there, as such.

Nothing on the Roma though. With Jews there's a sense of suspicion, with gypsies there's real hatred even among people with entirely liberal, egalitarian attitudes about everything else.

In Hungary I found the situation a bit more complicated as they're inordinately proud of Von Neumann, Teller, Erdos, Biro and a whole load of Jewish-Hungarian scientists and inventors. On the other hand that was before the emergence of that video of Simon Peres supposedly saying Israel was buying Hungary.

cinc

They tend to say that they dont hate jews, just the bad ones. and there are good jews (the kind that does not fit their stereotypes) like me and the stereotypical bad jews, for whom they have no no real examples, apart from a few in the media. And the necessary "I have jew friends!" line.

Then they go back of calling a jew anyone they dont like who happen to have a german sounding name. But those are mainly of german heritage


The funny thing is when the fans of the oldest football club (Újpest), founded by a jewish magnate (he also founded their town that later became a district of Budapest) start to call the other club with Jewish origin (MTK) or one with german origins (Ferencvaros) Jewish.

cinc

(There's a family story that I like, it made my maternal grandparents very happy. they are both jewish, my grandmother has been to Ausschwitz and lost her family there, while my grandfather was in hiding the whole time. But my paternal grandparents were aristocrats and my grandmother hated Jews.

So much so that for years after my parents marriage she didnt let me or my brother or my mother to visit them. His husband was a sweet man, and did not have any problems with my mother, but he was very old(90+) and completely blind at that point, so he was easily manipulated my grandmother.

This grandmother met my maternal grandparents the first time when I was 4 or 5, 8 years into the marriage, three years after her husband died.

So at one night, it was me, and the three grandparents in the living room , when my father's mother started speaking to me:

- We, christians...
- You know what we are? Jews, we are Jews!

Needless to say, the old antisemite rushed out of the room and did not speak to us (not even his son) for days. Never liked her, to be honest.)

Plechazunga

She doesn't sound the best

The other weird racism phenomenon is sort of inverse racism, where people get an inferiority complex. It's there in a lot of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, because to believe them you at some level have to believe that Jews have basically outwitted the entire world for most of history.

There were some (white and Asian) kids at my mate's school who used to go driving round London looking for big black men driving flash cars with lots of bling. They didn't do anything when they found them, they apparently just used to love watching them, in the same way they loved listening to Barry White. It seemed to be a strange grey area between racism, hero-worship and homoeroticism.

Wibble

That is very odd indeed.

Plechazunga

Yeah. They were weirdos.

The strange this is that when not stalking black men, they seemed to get laid surprisingly often.

cinc

Forgot to mention that she routinely accused my mother of stealing her jewelry. The police didnt even wrote reports after the first three incident.

cinc

They may have been undercover social anthropologists

Plechazunga

That really wouldn't explain the getting to have sex with girls thing, though

cinc

They have to study the heterosexual lifestyle too.

marcosdeto

i thought that the racist insults against evra were done to provoke him and make him play bad and not because of the racist nature of the offender

in fact, liverpool has some black players like glen johnson or legends like john barnes

like when in ice hockey a player tells the rival goalie that his wife is sleeping with the gardener, he obviously couldn't care less about the sex life of that woman, just wants his oponent to lose his temper and have a bad game

Wibble

By who? Other weirdos?

Devil_forever

What I've always found absolutely hilarious is how they treat non whites as "un-american", yet non of them are natives anyway. They're just as 'un-american' as anyone non white person who lives in the US.

rcoobc

What I always find hilarious is when people don't understand that the founding of the United States did take place with more than just Native Americans. Of course the Native Americans are the true citizens of the land, but to say that an immigrant has as much of a right to a country they have no claim to, as someone who's great-great-grandparent's where there at the founding is a bit...

Silly!

Devil_forever

I completely agree with it, thats why its ironic when white Americans label Obama 'un-American', when he's just as American as they are. That was my point.

rcoobc

Life is fucked up. I dated someone who thought that everyone who's great grandparents weren't from this country (England) should be forced to leave this country, at least if they weren't greatly contributing to society.

She was good in bed though, which made her views on immigration largely irrelevant.

cinc

The funniest was when a Hungarian nanny who was working in London complained about immigrants. She's a lovely girl apart from this.