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#41 (permalink) |
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Paz's ion
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Walking in a whisky wonderland.
Posts: 24,186
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The reason we continue to have a AAA rating is because we have a path to a lower debt level. So yes, we could borrow a bit more and invest (and we should). But we still need to cut pensions, spending, and generally do all that fucking over of the little man that people are up in arms about. To keep the AAA rating you need the rating agencies to agree to that path. But it's not a barrier to borrowing more, as long as the path still looks sensible. That's the key argument against austerity.
And I'm sorry, but the US doesn't need to worry about 1 agency downgrading it by a single notch. 2 agencies might be a problem. 1 agency by 1 notch would be a disaster for the UK. We are a small economy these days, dwarfed by China, the US and the Eurozone, and soon Brazil, India, etc. It's far easier to move our bond market. If you think the Eurozone's bond market moves at the caprice of investors, I can assure you that ours is even more sensitive. Lastly, the City of London will continue to remain the most important part of the UK economy. It's the UK's largest export industry and its key competitive advantage. After all, you think the UK government could borrow a penny without the City to buy and distribute its bonds? |
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#42 (permalink) |
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Baby Cameron loves X-Factor
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,051
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Who is there to buy our goods when all other economies are struggling, and that is the point - no matter the approach countries are taking in the western world none of us are doing particularly well whether we are cutting spending quickly or maintaining a large deficit, or have no deficit at all.
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#43 (permalink) | |
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Reserve Team Player
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,586
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#44 (permalink) | |
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Phones, soup, paint, chairs and computers are troubling.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Where Albert Stubbins scored a diving header
Posts: 47,728
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As far as I can see, the evidence from the economies that have and haven't in this crisis strongly suggests that it's not, and that when done at the same time as Keynesian borrowing and investment it blunts the effectiveness of that. As for the size of our economy, well it's the 6th/7th biggest in the world. Naturally it's dwarfed by nations and blocs of nations many times our size. |
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#47 (permalink) | |
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Reserve Team Player
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,243
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#48 (permalink) | |
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Can't stop thinking about David Nugent's hot naked body
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,261
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Quote:
a.alesina 2010 - Google Search |
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#49 (permalink) | |
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Bitter Arse hole
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Happy those, who can remain at Highbury!
Posts: 25,989
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Quote:
First, some of the outcomes examined by Alesina involve fiscal shrinkage in a downturn which is ‘built in’, i.e. not a matter of deliberate policy (or ‘policy driven’). The IMF study looks only at policy driven cases, and finds only two cases (Denmark, 1983; Ireland, 1987) which support Alesina’s thesis. The IMF concludes: Fiscal consolidation typically has a contractionary effect on output. A fiscal consolidation equal to 1 percent of GDP typically reduces GDP by about 0.5 percent within two years and raises the unemployment rate by about 0.3 percentage point. Domestic demand – consumption and investment – falls by about 1 percent'. |
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#51 (permalink) | |
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Can't stop thinking about David Nugent's hot naked body
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,261
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#52 (permalink) | |
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Bitter Arse hole
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Happy those, who can remain at Highbury!
Posts: 25,989
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#53 (permalink) | |
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Can't stop thinking about David Nugent's hot naked body
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,261
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#54 (permalink) | |
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Wobbles like a massive pair of tits
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,227
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#55 (permalink) |
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Baby Cameron loves X-Factor
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,051
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The Americans are going to have to start cutting dramatically and in the not too distant future unless they want their national debt to become ridiculous in scope and scale.
And as I have now been saying since the beginning of time you cannot compare us to the Americans, they have the largest economy in the world and the reserve currency of the world - they can stare the rest of the world down on such an argument like nobody else is able to. The UK cannot do that, and what is more we are heavily tied into the fate of the Eurozone - the threat of defaults on the continent is a valid point as we were looking far stronger than we are now as late as September when that began kicking off in a big way. When half of your trade with Europe and Europe is in crisis you are not going to escape it yourself like Canada has not been able to escape this firestorm despite having the soundest financial sector as 75% or so of their trade is with the Americans. |
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#56 (permalink) |
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Baby Cameron loves X-Factor
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,051
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It was only in the third quarter that our growth was 0.6% before we began stumbling from summit to summit about saving the Eurozone in the Autumn.
Over the last seven days it has been reported that manufacturing output rose sharply in January which in Q4 was one of the big reasons for the fall whilst in the last 24 hours whilst everybody has been recording increased growth in the all-dominating services sector. People try and say it is the Conservatives who talk the economy down but it isn't they who beat the drum about recession at every possible opportunity, people hear recession and they think 2008-9 which wasn't so much a recession but a fall off a cliff which affects their buying and spending behaviour. |
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#58 (permalink) |
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Reserve Team Player
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,586
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Brian is the one who says not to focus on one statistic when it goes against his argument but never mind, lets quote some report that one statistic might be showing some positive trend. That clearly answers the main accusation that our recovery was smothered at birth and that there is clear evidence that we are still deeply in the poo when in fact we could have been growing. It amazes me that you do this over and over. All the things the conservatives said wouldn't happen, have happened. Whereas all the things they assured us would happen, haven't happened.
Where are all the private sector jobs we were promised would be available to take up the slack? Oh and the real kick in the teeth is that the books we were supposed to be balancing will still be in deficit because we couldn't be a little more patient, couldn't wait longer to allow us to recover from the blow to confidence that the financial collapse delivered. I always hoped I was on the wrong side of this debate and still do with regards to the strength and timing of the recovery. |
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#59 (permalink) |
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Baby Cameron loves X-Factor
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,051
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The economy continues to recover, our deficit is coming down quickly, our banks are returning to health, only last month individuals payed down more credit card debt than in any one month since records began.
The simple fact of the matter is the world economy remains very turbulent, events in Europe I believe have vindicated the government's position. The primary argument put forward in support of the spending review was to prevent the national debt from overwhelming public spending, and to prevent the burden of it costing the taxpayer too much revenue. To me, the biggest argument in support of it was to run down the deficit as quickly as possible to prevent it becoming a noose around our necks should a second economic crisis in recent years come our way. If there was a banking crisis in the Eurozone the severe loss in confidence worldwide would hit our banks and would likely prevent the government from being able to sell its debt as the deficit balloons in response to a severe downturn. If our public spending was balanced or near balanced we would be able to weather such a storm but we couldn't if we had a deficit that was overtly large. That is why I opposed Labour's plans, to run a deficit in such times is incredibly dangerous and presents a significant threat to our economic vitality - if it works it results in a couple of additional points of economic growth but if it fails it leads to systemic devastation, it is not responsible to take such risks with our long-time future to satisfy the short-term urgings of the left. |
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#60 (permalink) | |
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Baby Cameron loves X-Factor
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,051
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Another point I ought to have made in my earlier post is that you cannot look at the very recent upturn in the US and say that could be us. Afterall the Americans were jumping up and down in the summer worrying about a further downturn when our economy was coming along nicely as it did in Q2 and Q3. It is much more sensible to look to Europe than the US because our economy is not just more aligned to European countries but it is more similar to theirs in balance between public and private sector, levels of public spending, levels of living standards etc. Plus of course the Eurozone has 17 nations in it as opposed to comparing us with just the one. Personally I think the Government, and I, were too optimistic in our hopes for a quick recovery which doesn't tally with the enormity of what hit the world and the restructuring that is required. It might just be that stagnation is the best we could have gotten right now which is likely to be accurate considering the world around us which we cannot act in isolation from. The one thing that has been proven over the last five years is what a guessing game growth forecast can be which has been out on so many occasions for better or worse - in their recent forecast in the last three months the OBR and the BoE appear to be in agreement that despite their downgrading of our prospects in the immediate future, growth in 2-5 years from now will be 'above trend' as I recall Mervyn King saying. Though as the rule book with regard to economic experience across the world is being rewritten right now so you have to take whatever anybody says good or bad with a skip of salt though it remains my fervent belief that we are doing the right things moving onward. |
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#61 (permalink) | |
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I.C.F. Member
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: It is better to remain poor than to have been rich and lost it all
Posts: 27,376
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It's annoying when people use stats for an argument as they will always find a stat that backs their case up, confirmation bias if you like If Europe recovers and UK doesn't we'll see what argument Brian finds then |
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#62 (permalink) | |
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Real Caftard Fantasy Champ 2009
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Would posters please stop listing our own players. We all know who they are and it's driving me fucking mad.
Posts: 7,281
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The deficit is not coming down even slowly, never mind quickly. It rose in the last quarter. Your argument would carry more weight if you stuck to the stats that do back you up instead of repeating things over and over again that are just plain not true. |
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#63 (permalink) | |
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Baby Cameron loves X-Factor
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,051
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#65 (permalink) | |
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Baby Cameron loves X-Factor
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 16,051
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Quote:
Our national debt was always going to rise beyond Ł1 trillion once the Government came in and it will rise further beyond that. |
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#66 (permalink) | |
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First Team Sub
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Stretford End - 3103
Posts: 5,712
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Blame Labour, the snow, Royal wedding, Europe. People are growing tired of excuses; as time goes on and things continue to deteriorate, the anyone but us schtick wears thinner and thinner. Conservative spads like yourself will have to work harder and harder sooner than you know. Ed even looks competent on the economy in PMQs recently. Even Gideon looked uncomfortable last week. |
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#68 (permalink) | |
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First Team Sub
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Stretford End - 3103
Posts: 5,712
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I disagree with just about everything he says and stands for, but perversely he's one of my favourite posters on here. Deciphering his right wing propaganda is fun. |
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#69 (permalink) | |
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First Team Sub
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Madchester
Posts: 5,539
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His stats are sometimes a little selective though, and I don't think I've ever seen him deviate from party line, which is unusual. Quite young to be a spad though. |
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#74 (permalink) |
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Can't stop thinking about David Nugent's hot naked body
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,261
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Thought I'd copy in the blog from my current economics lecturer. He's not in favour of austerity, believing that fiscal stimulus in this time would help and makes fairly convincing arguments.
mainly macro |
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#75 (permalink) | |
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Wobbles like a massive pair of tits
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,227
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Quote:
This is a key point: "We have an asymmetry of risks. If fiscal policy is too expansionary, we have monetary policy as a fall back. However, because of the zero bound for interest rates and uncertainty over the effectiveness of Quantitative Easing, we do not have a similar insurance policy if fiscal policy is tightened too quickly." |
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#76 (permalink) |
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First Team Sub
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: If every instinct you have is wrong, then the opposite would have to be right.
Posts: 8,037
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BBC News - Today - Economics explained: Plan A vs Plan B
Quite an interesting article about the economic choices the coalition face(d). |
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#77 (permalink) |
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First Team Sub
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Stretford End - 3103
Posts: 5,712
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Not good, at all
UK unemployment stuck at 17-year high as economy flatlines | Business | The Guardian Plus, the deficit continues to increase, even beyond Labour projections, with this warning from Fraser Nelson yesterday: A warning for Osborne and his economic agenda | The Spectator |
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#79 (permalink) | ||
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Nicest fella on the Caf and Newbie of the Year 2011
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Divided Kingdom
Posts: 11,918
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#80 (permalink) |
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First Team Sub
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: If every instinct you have is wrong, then the opposite would have to be right.
Posts: 8,037
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Where do the Guardian think we should cut costs then? I suppose their solution is to increase our borrowing further, lose the confidence of the market and spiral into disaster. This idea that working people should have to pay for the unemployed / low paid to live in accomodation that could well be superior to their own was always absurd.
I feel sorry for people who have to relocate and face upheaval, but the free ride had to end at some point. It's not like poeple are being tossed on to the street, they will still be able to afford habitable accomodation. I'm sure this is an unpopular policy on this forum but out in the real world I haven't spoken to a single person who's opposed to this policy. |
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