Spain's Split?

21st January 2004, 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

The language of Galicia changed later, when the Middle Ages were reaching their end, under the domain of the Spanish kingdom, and so it has remained until today. Gallego growth separated from Portuguese and received far more influence from the Spanish language.

So, although Portugues and Modern Gallego have their origin in the Old language of Galicia, modern Gallego has been seriously effected by Castellano, to such an extent that many Portugues have difficulty in understanding it, and find it much easier to understand Castellano (Spanish).

What a load of crap. It's the Castillian language that was affected by Arab influences not any other language in Spain.

1) Old Castillian originated from Portuguese-Galician but was then affected by Arab influence.

2) Basque continues though under Castillian pressure

3) Catalonian continues though under Castillian pressure

4) Galician continues though under Castillian pressure

Galician and Portuguese are 98% the same thing which ever way you look at it. We understand each other perfectly

.

Portuguese people understand Galician because it's the same language, just politically divided for the time being.

Castillian is weird. It was the Castillian language that was corrupted by Arab influence not the others.

21st January 2004, 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

1. RECONSTRUCTED Vulgar Latin, which is not spoken any more, has been PIECED TOGETHER, i.e. RECONSTRUCTED, from several sources, including slips in Classical Latin, vernacular plays like those of Pluatus etc, and, working backwards, MODERN ROMANCE LANGUAGES.

2. DERIVED The VL spoken in Rome derived from - i.e. DEVELOPED from - Early or Old Latin. The VL spoken in the provinces was originally the same language, but changed into the Romance languages for various reasons, including the influence of the indigenous provincial languages.

The English from the Encyclopaedia Britannica isn't good enough for you? Or are they also wrong in that aspect?

Vulgar latin didn't just take on a few words and such words from western European languages did in fact greatly influence the language spoken in Rome by the Romans. You might not like it but that's where it's heading.

20 years ago the Lusitanian language was said to be extinct while Celtic was re-emerging from darkness. Now it seems Lusitanian as been with us all along. It has just been classified as either Vulgar latin, Celtic or something else.

Why would the Lusitanian language become extinct when the people never became extinct? These people being the present day Portuguese and Galicians.

Just think, the Romans even adopted the word for horse from the Celtic/Lusitanian language. This is something you clearly can't comprehend.

It could be your upbringing or lack of it that doesn't allow you to believe more powerful societies did infact adopt many words and terms from lesser powerful ones.

The Lusitanian language WAS indeed used to reconstruct Vulgar latin as Lusitanian is a western European language. This is evidenced by the Britannica and linguists. I've aleady posted such sources. The greatest city(Merida) in which the Romans lived in Iberia was in Lusitania.

So yes, if Lusitanian was used to RECONSTRUCT the vulgar latin language then Vulgar latin must then PARTLY derive from Lusitanian.

Play with words all you like but Vulgar latin has Lusitanian in it. As to what percentage, the jury is still out on this but it looks like it's going to shock a few people out there! I think you're one of them.

The Romans learned many things from the Lusitanians. Even such things as horsemanship and the use of cavalry tactics in war.

There is much evidence words original to the Lusitanians (Portuguese) were adopted by the Romans. It maybe a few inscriptions but they shed much light on what was once conviniently thought to be of Roman origin. The earth isn't the centre of our solar system you know.

The only misleading around here is being done by you.

I at least acknowledge a language derives from BOTH its major AND its minor components while you completly ignore the minor component.

The Portuguese-Galician language was only named as such when Lusitania changed its name to Portugal. Prior that, the Lusitanians spoke Lusitanian. The Lusitanians didn't speak a language called Portuguese as Portugal as a nation didn't yet exist.

I seriously suggest you pick up a history book instead of deceiving others with your word play.

The only thing to be laughed at here is you. You say the Britannica is incorrect when it suits you and in your own little world a language is only said to derive from a MAJOR component language whereby one should ignore the MINOR component language. Component languages such as Celtic and Lusitanian.

Maybe the world should ignore minorities like you?

21st January 2004, 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

In Proto-Indo-European there were two roots for Pig,

Vulgar latin didn't get "Porcom" from Classical latin or Roman origins. Vulgar latin got it from either Lusitanian or Celtic but most likely Lusitanian.

The word appears in Lusitanian inscriptions prior Roman presence or any Roman text. Just like their word for horse "Cavallo" the Romans adopted it from western European languages.

No one also thought the Spanish word "Toro" came from the Lusitanian word "Tourom". However I've provided a Spanish site that acknowledges the origins of it to be Lusitanian.

No one also thought the word for horse "cavallo" to be anything but Vulgar latin/Roman in origin but guess what? It's now acknowledged as not being Roman at all but Celtic in origin.

The only thing you either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge is that Vulgar latin has Indo-European roots due mostly to western European languages like Celtic and Lusitanian.

If it wasn't for the so-called RECONSTRUCTION of Vulgar latin whereby Celtic/Lusitanians words were adopted by the Romans/Italians, Vulgar latin wouldn't be considered Indo-European at all but probably something else.

It's languages like Lusitanian and Celtic that probably ensure latin continues to be classified as Indo-European.

Something you fail to comprehend!

21st January 2004, 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Wrong again Weastedevil. Here's what the britannica says about the Catalan language.

"Catalan is closely related to Provençal, a language spoken in southern France. It is spoken by the majority of the population in Catalonia (Cataluña), Valencia, and the Balearic Islands"

It clearly says majority of people in Valencia speak Catalan. I've met people from Valencia and they too considered themselves to be Catalan.

Don't know where you get your facts from but I suggest you widen your sources.

I'm married to one for a start, and have many friends from the Northern province of Valencia, Castello, and they will dispute that Valenciano is not a dialect of Catalan, in fact some will say that Catalan is a dialect of Valenciano.

Very similar to what you are saying about Castellano!

And many Valencianos (the ones than speak Valenciano) do not consider themselves to be Catalan. You say that you have met people, I fucking well live with them.

21st January 2004, 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

I'm married to one for a start, and have many friends from the Northern province of Valencia, Castello, and they will dispute that Valenciano is not a dialect of Catalan, in fact some will say that Catalan is a dialect of Valenciano.

Very similar to what you are saying about Castellano!

And many Valencianos (the ones than speak Valenciano) do not consider themselves to be Catalan. You say that you have met people, I fucking well live with them.

And yes Sporting, Castello is the only really true Valenciano speaking province of the Land of Valencia, the further south you go, the more they mix Valenciano and Castellano. But even in Castello, you will find town such as Segorbe where very few people can speak Valenciano, but then again, it is quite close to Castilla.

21st January 2004, 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

I'm married to one for a start, and have many friends from the Northern province of Valencia, Castello, and they will dispute that Valenciano is not a dialect of Catalan, in fact some will say that Catalan is a dialect of Valenciano.

Very similar to what you are saying about Castellano!

And many Valencianos (the ones than speak Valenciano) do not consider themselves to be Catalan. You say that you have met people, I fucking well live with them.

Maybe the people you're living with are ignorant or too proud to admit their language is Catalan. I know for a fact many Valencianos have Arab origins and they hide that too. Maybe they're not real Spaniards with real Spanish ancestry?

Regardless of who you live with, I quote encyclopaedic sources:

"Catalan is closely related to Provençal, a language spoken in southern France. It is spoken by the majority of the population in Catalonia (Cataluña), Valencia, and the Balearic Islands"

so it's slightly more credible than your next door neighbour don't you think?

21st January 2004, 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

"Catalan is closely related to Provençal, a language spoken in southern France. It is spoken by the majority of the population in Catalonia (Cataluña), Valencia, and the Balearic Islands"

Yet has a lexicon almost as similar to Castellano as Portugues does!

So, obviously, by your reasoning, Provençal must also derive from Portuguese-Galician too?

Also, getting back to this Porc thing, the grouping of letters Porko- is one of the very common stems in all of the Centrum languages of the Indo-European Root. ALL of them! Yet you still insist that it is only a Celtic stem.

21st January 2004, 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Maybe the people you're living with are ignorant or too proud to admit their language is Catalan. I know for a fact many Valencianos have Arab origins and they hide that too. Maybe they're not real Spaniards with real Spanish ancestry?

You were the fool that tried to make a point by saying that you have met Valencianos, not me.

And what you say is highly offensive.

21st January 2004, 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Gallego as you call it was spoken before Spain was ever formed.

Yes, and is not spoken anymore.

21st January 2004, 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

Yes, and is not spoken anymore.

Just like Latin, Old English, and Cornish.

21st January 2004, 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

an Jesus Christ. I appreciate that English isn't your first language

I'm not too sure about that!

21st January 2004, 02:47

Do you realise how many people actually lived in what is now modern Porugal at the time of the Roman conquest Sporting? Do you have a clue?

Yet they seem to have influenced not only an entire Empire with their language, but also somehow actually put some of it into Germanic speaking races as well.

Do you see how ludicrous this actually is?

21st January 2004, 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

Yet has a lexicon almost as similar to Castellano as Portugues does!

So, obviously, by your reasoning, Provençal must also derive from Portuguese-Galician too?

Also, getting back to this Porc thing, the grouping of letters Porko- is one of the very common stems in all of the Centrum languages of the Indo-European Root. ALL of them! Yet you still insist that it is only a Celtic stem.

Like I said, the Catalan lexicon could be similar to the Portuguese-Galician lexicon due to the Castillian influence on it. Since Castillian borrowed much of its lexicon from Portuguese-Galician.

About the "Porcom" word, all I'm saying is that it existed in the Lusitanian language way before Roman arrival and that it shouldn't be thought to be of Roman vulgar latin origins but most likely of Lusitanian origins since it's still in use in the Portuguese-Galician language.

21st January 2004, 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

The problem with you Weaste, is that you think (or hope) because a nation has been taken over, the people either dissapear or stop using their language.

Well it just ain't so. Look at Spain itself, people their still speak their original Basque and Galician languages even though they are ruled by the foreign Castillians.

Errr, as I've already told you, I'm an Anglo-Saxon, so Spanish is hardly my language.

And I hope Basque, Catalan, Galician, and Valencian are continued to be spoken. Just like Welsh, Scots and Irish Gaelic are.

21st January 2004, 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

Yes, and is not spoken anymore.

Languages are dynamic. It's just called Galician now. When Galiza joins Portugal once again, it'll be called Portuguese-Galician as it once used to be.

21st January 2004, 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

About the "Porcom" word, all I'm saying is that it existed in the Lusitanian language way before Roman arrival and that it shouldn't be thought to be of Roman vulgar latin origins but most likely of Lusitanian origins since it's still in use in the Portuguese-Galician language.

Porko is a major Centrum IE stem, it existed in all of the main language groups them at one point, but in some was replaced by other words. English is an example, it is now only used as the name for the flesh of the animal, not the animal itself. In German it is not even used for the flesh. Language changes over time and is influenced my many a source, but Porko was at one time common to all Centrum languages, not just Celt. Obviously, thius leads to the Latin, Porcus.

But look, it even got lost in Castellano, which is strange, as obviously, for a language so influenced by this thing that you call "Lusitanian", they decided to swap it for Cerdo.

21st January 2004, 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

When Galiza joins Portugal once again.

You wish!

Do you not get it?

What you say is totally absurd in the modern European political dynamic!

21st January 2004, 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

You wish!

Do you not get it?

What you say is totally absurd in the modern European political dynamic!

Oh yeah, I forgot, you put it back to front, you should have said "When Portugal joins Galicia once again".

21st January 2004, 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

Do you realise how many people actually lived in what is now modern Porugal at the time of the Roman conquest Sporting? Do you have a clue?

Yet they seem to have influenced not only an entire Empire with their language, but also somehow actually put some of it into Germanic speaking races as well.

Do you see how ludicrous this actually is?

It's not ludicrous at all, Strabo said the Lusitanians were the most powerful nation in the peninsula. That the peninsula was well populated all over and especially on the western side (Lusitania).

So ludicrous that the Romans were defeated in battle and were eventually forced to surrender and sign a peace treaty. A treaty that was ratified in Rome by the senate itself.

21st January 2004, 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

You wish!

Do you not get it?

What you say is totally absurd in the modern European political dynamic!

Not only me! 70 million of us!

Politics have a nack of changing and to dissapoint. Best prepare yourself.

21st January 2004, 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Galician and Portuguese are 98% the same thing which ever way you look at it. We understand each other perfectly

WTF is this all about then?

Quote:

José Luis Valente writes in a letter to Portal Galego da Lingua on 27 August 2003:

"What register do we offer when we go to Portugal speaking Galego-Portugûes? Well, often it is such a Castillianized register that instead of informing about our reality, it creates confusion for the Portuguese citizen about the language of his Galego visitor. It is such a Castillianized Galego in phonetics and often in syntax and lexicon that the Portuguese thinks he is dealing with a Spaniard who is trying to speak Portuguese. This idea only conforms his own prejudice that Galicia is a region of Spain where people speak something, which could be Portuguese-Spanish or Mirandês. The natural courtesy and politeness (often excessive) of our brothers from the South leads them to try to speak Castillian. In other words, our attitude often does not inform, but confuses the Portuguese citizen about the Galego linguistic reality."

Catarina, another Portuguese, writes:

"I am Portuguese, born and bred in Lisbon, but as long as I remember I have gone several times a year to Galicia since my parents love the region and have friends there. I have always been unsure when approaching Galegos because many of them, perhaps the majority, don't like us to speak Portuguese with them. Just last month I went into a drug store in Vigo where three shop assistants were talking. I saw that they were speaking in Galego so I spoke to one of them in Portuguese. She answered in Castillian. I have a lot of these examples, but also have some in which people spoke to me in Galego. At first I was afraid but now I always speak in Portuguese. (From Portal Galego da Lingua)"

Go and look at what common Portugues people say about Gallego at Galego da Lingua.

They are either Stupid or you are seriously good with language.

21st January 2004, 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Not only me! 70 million of us!

Politics have a nack of changing and to dissapoint. Best prepare yourself.

70 million of who?

Wibble · 21st January 2004, 14:25

I'm pretty sure that population pf Penrith is less than 70 million

21st January 2004, 16:32

31st January 2004, 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

WTF is this all about then?

Go and look at what common Portugues people say about Gallego at Galego da Lingua.

They are either Stupid or you are seriously good with language.

"WTF is this all about then????"

Can you even read/comprehend your own posts Weastie?

The first scenario supports my statement that Galician and Portuguese are the same languages with the only difference being the corrupt influence Castillian has on the Galician language. Hence the below statement:

"It is such a Castillianized Galego in phonetics and often in syntax and lexicon that the Portuguese thinks he is dealing with a Spaniard who is trying to speak Portuguese."

Do you understand the above comment??

"Castillianized Galego" means Galician that has been corrupted by Castillian.

If it were not for the "Castillianized" Galician, he would not be thinking it was a Spaniard he was talking to. In other words, if you piss off the Castillion influence on Galician, a Portuguese would immediately know he is speaking to a Galician due to their similar languages and not some other Castillian, Catalan or Basque person.

In the second scenario of your post, Catarina CONCLUDES she can use her own language (Portuguese) when she visits Galiza. Hence her below statement at the end:

"At first I was afraid but now I always speak in Portuguese."

It was only that cow that answered in the Castillian language that Catarina couldn't understand!! However, Catarina understood the other woman who chose to speak in Galician.

So in essence, Catarina (Portuguese speaking) didn't understand the woman that spoke Castillian but clearly understood the other that spoke Galician.

31st January 2004, 02:49

Quote:Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan
Gallego as you call it was spoken before Spain was ever formed.

Quote:Originally Posted by WeasteDevil
Yes, and is not spoken anymore.

Quote:Originally Posted by WeasteDevil
Just like Latin, Old English, and Cornish.

This is an example of the crap Galicians and Basques have to put up with.

From the above quotes, Castillians like Westie want the world to think the Galician language isn't spoken anymore. Yet he then posts the below:

Quote:Originally Posted by WeasteDevil:
"I saw that they were speaking in Galego so I spoke to one of them in Portuguese. She answered in Castillian. I have a lot of these examples, but also have some in which people spoke to me in Galego"

In one post he says Galician isn't being spoken anymore and in another post of his he quotes the conversation "I saw that they were speaking in Galego" and "but also have some in which people spoke to me in Galego".

He even admits he got the above info from a Galician language portal

"José Luis Valente writes in a letter to Portal Galego da Lingua on 27 August 2003:"

He wants others to think the Galician language isn't spoken anymore yet he then goes to a Galician language portal to get info.

Oh...and screw the fact Galician is CURRENTLY one of the 4 official languages of Spain according to the CIA fact files.

So this is what the world has to swallow according to the Spaniard Castillians:

1) Even though "Castillian is the official language nationwide of Spain" as listed on the CIA fact files you all have to call it Spanish and don't ask anymore questions...just swallow!

2) Even though Galician is another official language of Spain and the main language used in Galicia you all have to think it's not being spoken by 3 million Galicians, don't ask anymore questions and just swallow!

2nd February 2004, 18:44

I said that old Gallego isn't spoken anymore! Old Gallego meaning the language that modern Portuguese and modern Gallego decended from. Yet modern Gallego has been influenced so much by Spanish that it is only when you actually read it that you can see the similarities with Portuguese, because as spoken it sounds like a Spanish person trying hard to speak Portuguese with a lot of mistakes.

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21st January 2004, 02:47	#452 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a	Do you realise how many people actually lived in what is now modern Porugal at the time of the Roman conquest Sporting? Do you have a clue? Yet they seem to have influenced not only an entire Empire with their language, but also somehow actually put some of it into Germanic speaking races as well. Do you see how ludicrous this actually is?

21st January 2004, 14:25	#463 (permalink)
Wibble Ingadus Speramus Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Centre Back Posts: 48,918	I'm pretty sure that population pf Penrith is less than 70 million

21st January 2004, 16:32	#464 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a

31st January 2004, 02:49	#466 (permalink)
Sporting FC Fan Guest Posts: n/a	Quote:Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan Gallego as you call it was spoken before Spain was ever formed. Quote:Originally Posted by WeasteDevil Yes, and is not spoken anymore. Quote:Originally Posted by WeasteDevil Just like Latin, Old English, and Cornish. This is an example of the crap Galicians and Basques have to put up with. From the above quotes, Castillians like Westie want the world to think the Galician language isn't spoken anymore. Yet he then posts the below: Quote:Originally Posted by WeasteDevil: "I saw that they were speaking in Galego so I spoke to one of them in Portuguese. She answered in Castillian. I have a lot of these examples, but also have some in which people spoke to me in Galego" In one post he says Galician isn't being spoken anymore and in another post of his he quotes the conversation "I saw that they were speaking in Galego" and "but also have some in which people spoke to me in Galego". He even admits he got the above info from a Galician language portal "José Luis Valente writes in a letter to Portal Galego da Lingua on 27 August 2003:" He wants others to think the Galician language isn't spoken anymore yet he then goes to a Galician language portal to get info. Oh...and screw the fact Galician is CURRENTLY one of the 4 official languages of Spain according to the CIA fact files. So this is what the world has to swallow according to the Spaniard Castillians: 1) Even though "Castillian is the official language nationwide of Spain" as listed on the CIA fact files you all have to call it Spanish and don't ask anymore questions...just swallow! 2) Even though Galician is another official language of Spain and the main language used in Galicia you all have to think it's not being spoken by 3 million Galicians, don't ask anymore questions and just swallow!

2nd February 2004, 18:44	#467 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a	I said that old Gallego isn't spoken anymore! Old Gallego meaning the language that modern Portuguese and modern Gallego decended from. Yet modern Gallego has been influenced so much by Spanish that it is only when you actually read it that you can see the similarities with Portuguese, because as spoken it sounds like a Spanish person trying hard to speak Portuguese with a lot of mistakes.