Spain's Split?

9th December 2003, 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

And this my fellow RedCafe members is a pro-Castillian at play.

He can't answer the simple question:

Under the Romans, were there 2 Hispanias(Spains), Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior?

Can you answer this simple question?

What is the question?

9th December 2003, 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

What is the question?

Under the Romans, were there 2 Hispanias(Spains), Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior?

9th December 2003, 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Under the Romans, were there 2 Hispanias(Spains), Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior?

And, under the Romans there were 4 parts to Britania???????

9th December 2003, 01:00

Are you saying that Britannia Ulterior was different to Britannia Citerior?

They were all full of Celts when the Romans came!

Just Hibernia and Caledonia (the Ulterior) were never bothered with.

9th December 2003, 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

And, under the Romans there were 4 parts to Britania???????

Fellow RedCafe members, admire how he now brings up Britania (England) in order to confuse people. He is changing the topic from Hispania (Spain) to Britannia (England).

The question remains the same WeasteDevil.

Under the Romans, were there 2 Hispanias(Spains), Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior?

9th December 2003, 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Under the Romans, were there 2 Hispanias(Spains), Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior?

And you miss the point totally.

How can Spain ever be split, if the ethnic groups (totally laughable that is - for economic reasons they all mixed in the last century anyway, you are just as likey now to see a child speaking Basque in public that is not ethnically Basque than one that really is Basque and speaks it at home - because if you live in that basque country, then you have to learn it at school, whether Basque ethnically or not) cannot be convinced to support seperatism?

It's fecking stupid!

And to be what? An independent speck of dust of of a land in the greater European context?

9th December 2003, 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Fellow RedCafe members, admire how he now brings up Britania (England) in order to confuse people. He is changing the topic from Hispania (Spain) to Britannia (England).

The question remains the same WeasteDevil.

Under the Romans, were there 2 Hispanias(Spains), Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior?

Britannia you fool is Anglia, Cambria, Caledonia, and Hibernia!

9th December 2003, 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Fellow RedCafe members, admire how he now brings up Britania (England) in order to confuse people. He is changing the topic from Hispania (Spain) to Britannia (England).

The question remains the same WeasteDevil.

Under the Romans, were there 2 Hispanias(Spains), Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior?

Yes, near, and far, but both Hispania!

For feck sake, note the common word!

HISPANIA!

Jaysus!

9th December 2003, 01:10

Witness how a Castillian/pro-Castillian evades the truth. He can't answer one simple question. Instead he spews crap everywhere instead of answering the question.

The question remains.

Under the Romans, were there 2 Hispanias(Spains), Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior?

9th December 2003, 01:11

We have a right Lusitanian on our hands here!

9th December 2003, 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Witness how a Castillian/pro-Castillian evades the truth. He can't answer one simple question. Instead he spews crap everywhere instead of answering the question.

The question remains.

Under the Romans, were there 2 Hispanias(Spains), Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior?

Yes, near, and far.

Nead Spain, Far Spain.

SPAIN!

9th December 2003, 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Witness how a Castillian/pro-Castillian evades the truth.

I'm a fecking Saxon you fool!

9th December 2003, 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Under the Romans, were there 2 Hispanias(Spains), Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior?

Would you actually make a valid point?

Otherwise I'm a Scotsman, but not English, but British, as The Cross of St Andrew is on the Union Flag after all, and it was a Scottish King who united the two thrones, and then his great grandson, who was German became George the First, the Hannovarian, that made all us British be ruled under a Kraut Monarch.

9th December 2003, 01:21

I get the feeling that Sporting is about as Spanish as I am!

9th December 2003, 01:23

Good, so we agree that there was never one Hispania or one Spain but infact there were always 2.

Don't forget this people, it's going to be very important further down the track when they bullshit about how it was all one Spain.

This was step one to show how modern day Portugal and modern day Spain were never, ever and I repeat ever in any historical union. Never ever!

Now do you agree that Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) encompased what is now modern day Portugal plus the northern part Galicia and that
Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) encompassed the rest of the peninsula, that is, modern day Spain without Galicia?

9th December 2003, 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Good, so we agree that there was never one Hispania or one Spain but infact there were always 2.

Don't forget this people, it's going to be very important further down the track when they bullshit about how it was all one Spain.

This was step one to show how modern day Portugal and modern day Spain were never, ever and I repeat ever in any historical union. Never ever!

Now do you agree that Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) encompased what is now modern day Portugal plus the northern part Galicia and that
Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) encompassed the rest of the peninsula, that is, modern day Spain without Galicia?

Most historians think that the fact that Portugal got away was more of an accident than anything else.

And I'm glad that you have come to terms with the word Spain. At least we have two of them now, albeit under the same word.

9th December 2003, 01:28

TBH, and just for a minute stop arguing, the real name for the "Kingdom of Spain" really is the "Kingdom of Spains"!

9th December 2003, 01:30

And there were 5 Spains, as I pointed out previously, but you ignored totally with your first post in this thread.

9th December 2003, 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

Most historians think that the fact that Portugal got away was more of an accident than anything else.

And I'm glad that you have come to terms with the word Spain. At least we have two of them now, albeit under the same word.

You once again evade the question at hand. The question is,

Do you agree that Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) encompased what is now modern day Portugal plus the northern part Galicia and that
Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) encompassed the rest of the peninsula, that is, modern day Spain without Galicia?

9th December 2003, 01:32

Are you really Iberian Sporting?

Or are you just taking the piss?

Your English at times is way too good.

9th December 2003, 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

You once again evade the question at hand. The question is,

Do you agree that Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) encompased what is now modern day Portugal plus the northern part Galicia and that
Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) encompassed the rest of the peninsula, that is, modern day Spain without Galicia?

FFS! These are Roman Terms.

Did Britannia once include what is now England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales?

Your point is? The name?

The Romans didn't think, oh, shit, they speak a little different over there, we had better give them a different name. They did it geographically.

9th December 2003, 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

FFS! These are Roman Terms.

Did Britannia once include what is now England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales?

Your point is? The name?

The Romans didn't think, oh, shit, they speak a little different over there, we had better give them a different name. They did it geographically.

Oriental, Occidental.

Near East, Far East. Still fecking Asia.

9th December 2003, 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

Are you really Iberian Sporting?

Or are you just taking the piss?

Your English at times is way too good.

You once again evade the question at hand. The question is,

Do you agree that Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) encompased what is now modern day Portugal plus the northern part Galicia and that
Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) encompassed the rest of the peninsula, that is, modern day Spain without Galicia?

9th December 2003, 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

You once again evade the question at hand. The question is,

Do you agree that Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) encompased what is now modern day Portugal plus the northern part Galicia and that
Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) encompassed the rest of the peninsula, that is, modern day Spain without Galicia?

Portugal or Lusitania?

9th December 2003, 01:39

Can you answer the question:

Do you agree that Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) encompased what is now modern day Portugal plus the northern part Galicia and that
Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) encompassed the rest of the peninsula, that is, modern day Spain without Galicia?

A simple yes/no will do.

9th December 2003, 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

Can you answer the question:

Do you agree that Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) encompased what is now modern day Portugal plus the northern part Galicia and that
Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) encompassed the rest of the peninsula, that is, modern day Spain without Galicia?

A simple yes/no will do.

No, Ulterior was both the South and the West!

Citerior was Really, Tarragona (well that was its capital).

9th December 2003, 01:41

Ulterior = Baetica

Hmmmmmmmmmm! Sevilla!

9th December 2003, 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

Ulterior = Baetica

Hmmmmmmmmmm! Sevilla!

No, Cordoba!

9th December 2003, 01:46

Well,

Baetica + Lusitania.

Betis, Sevilla, Andalucia, Classic Spain, you cannot get more Spanish than that.

9th December 2003, 02:02

Ok add the region south, latter to be known as Baetica and we'll move along.

Can you now confirm that Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain)
fragmented into the Roman provinces of Lusitania and Baetica.

And that Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) became Tarraconessis.

So in essence the evolution is as below:

Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) fragments to
1) Lusitania (representing most of modern day Portugal)
2) Baetica (representing the South of modern day Spain)

Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) becomes
1) Tarraconessis (which took what is now Galicia from Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) and represents much of modern day Spain

Simple yes/no will do.

9th December 2003, 02:03

Yes, now what?

9th December 2003, 02:07

They have made a shit of Sagunto BTW.

Terrible, considering its importance.

9th December 2003, 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

Yes, now what?

So now all we have is the Roman provinces of Lusitania, Baetica and Tarraconessis. The names Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior have been replaced.

Can we agree that Portugal encompasses most of what was Lusitania and that Spain encompasses of what was once the provoinces of Baetica and Tarraconessis.

So in essence we have:

1) Lusitania becomes modern day Portugal

2) Baetica plus Tarraconessis beomes modern day Spain.

Do we agree? Simple yes/no.

9th December 2003, 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

So now all we have is the Roman provinces of Lusitania, Baetica and Tarraconessis. The names Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior have been replaced.

Can we agree that Portugal encompasses most of what was Lusitania and that Spain encompasses of what was once the provoinces of Baetica and Tarraconessis.

So in essence we have:

1) Lusitania becomes modern day Portugal

2) Baetica plus Tarraconessis beomes modern day Spain.

Do we agree? Simple yes/no.

Yes, and?

Does Britannia encompass Anglia, Hibernia, Cantabria, and Caladonia?

9th December 2003, 02:20

I must say Sporting, your English is very good for a second language.

9th December 2003, 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporting FC Fan

In any case you can use the English/Irish equivalent as an example to get an idea of the overall message.

You will have serious difficulty in describing what the terms English and Irish actually mean, especially on the genetic level.

9th December 2003, 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

Yes, and?

So here is the evolutionary tree of what is modern day Spain and modern day Portugal:

Spain's evolution:

Step 1) Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain)
Step 2) Taraconossis plus Baetica
Step 3) Spain (present)

Portugal's evolution:

Step 1) Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain)
Step 2) Lusitania
Step 3) Portugal (present)

We can see that there NEVER existed one politically, ethnically, culturally unified Hispania or Spain and that both nations, Portugal and Spain, originated from different origins and beginnings.

But there's something else people should know. Step 3 in Spain's evolution is where the bullshit really begins.

Portugal emerged from Lusitania in the 12th century having it's own language, culture (Lusitanian) but there was no Spain in the 12th century!! Portugal is 300 years older than Spain.

That's right people. Step 3 never existed! While Portugal was Portugal in the 12th century what is now erroneously known as Spain was in fact Castile, Aragon, Leon, Catalonia Navarre (Basques) Galicia all with different kings. All different people with different ancestries, languages and cultures.

There was no Spain back then. Portuguese kings fought against Castillian kings as did the Catalonians, Basques and Galicians to one degree or another.

Only in the 15/16th century did something called Spain rear it's ugly head. This is where the bullshit started and hence why there are 7 million Catalonians, 3 million Galicians and 1 million Basques striving to free themselves from the ruling Castillians.

That's why there is no Spanish language, but Castillian, Basque, Catalonian and Galician languages.

The Castillians also use other words such Hispanic or Latino to fool people.

Hence WeasteDevil's refusal to acknowledge the existence of 2 Hispanias (Spains). Pro-Castillians just hate that fact!

Castillians also hate Lusitanians (Portuguese people) because we're the original people of the peninsula but that's another story.

WeasteDevil: Do you agree that there is no Spanish language but it is infact either Castillian, Basque, Catalonian or Galician?

Simple yes/no will do.

9th December 2003, 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeasteDevil

You will have serious difficulty in describing what the terms English and Irish actually mean, especially on the genetic level.

You want to talk genetics? Did you know that the conclusion of a study made by the University of Coimbra (Portugal) and the University of Madrid (Spain) showed that the Portuguese population was genetically unique from the rest of the Iberian (Spanish) population. And that the study had important implications in the organ transplant of Portuguese origin or ancestry. It was published in the "Immunogenetics" so please don't crap to me about genetics!

The Portuguese/Lusitanians have DNA only found in them and also deseases specific only to people of Portuguese/Lusitanian ancestry or origin.

In any case, can you answer the folowing question.

Do you agree that there is no Spanish language but it is infact either Castillian, Basque, Catalonian or Galician?

Simple yes/no will do.

mathiaslg · 9th December 2003, 05:00

This may be getting off topic

, but why does Spain need to split? What the hell would be the point?

Should Bavaria break away from Germany? Should Piedmont break away from the rest of Italy?

Isn't this all a little crazy?

9th December 2003, 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by mathiaslg

This may be getting off topic

, but why does Spain need to split? What the hell would be the point?

Should Bavaria break away from Germany? Should Piedmont break away from the rest of Italy?

Isn't this all a little crazy?

Why did the Soviet Union split?
Why did Yugoslavia split?
Why did East-Timor split from Indonesia?
Why did Ireland split?

Conversly

Why did the States of America unite?
Why did East-West Germany unite?
Why did Macao/Hong Kong unite with the motherland China?

Well, many different reasons really. Why do the Basques, Galicians and Catalonians want to split? Freedom. Ever heard of the word?

Feedom to speak their own language, freedom to practice their own culture and habits, freedom to worship their ancestors, freedom!

Also because they should have never been placed together to start off with but were forced to only by war by the Castillians.

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9th December 2003, 01:00	#44 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a	Are you saying that Britannia Ulterior was different to Britannia Citerior? They were all full of Celts when the Romans came! Just Hibernia and Caledonia (the Ulterior) were never bothered with.

9th December 2003, 01:10	#49 (permalink)
Sporting FC Fan Guest Posts: n/a	Witness how a Castillian/pro-Castillian evades the truth. He can't answer one simple question. Instead he spews crap everywhere instead of answering the question. The question remains. Under the Romans, were there 2 Hispanias(Spains), Hispania Ulterior and Hispania Citerior?

9th December 2003, 01:11	#50 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a	We have a right Lusitanian on our hands here!

9th December 2003, 01:21	#54 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a	I get the feeling that Sporting is about as Spanish as I am!

9th December 2003, 01:23	#55 (permalink)
Sporting FC Fan Guest Posts: n/a	Good, so we agree that there was never one Hispania or one Spain but infact there were always 2. Don't forget this people, it's going to be very important further down the track when they bullshit about how it was all one Spain. This was step one to show how modern day Portugal and modern day Spain were never, ever and I repeat ever in any historical union. Never ever! Now do you agree that Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) encompased what is now modern day Portugal plus the northern part Galicia and that Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) encompassed the rest of the peninsula, that is, modern day Spain without Galicia?

9th December 2003, 01:28	#57 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a	TBH, and just for a minute stop arguing, the real name for the "Kingdom of Spain" really is the "Kingdom of Spains"!

9th December 2003, 01:30	#58 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a	And there were 5 Spains, as I pointed out previously, but you ignored totally with your first post in this thread.

9th December 2003, 01:32	#60 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a	Are you really Iberian Sporting? Or are you just taking the piss? Your English at times is way too good.

9th December 2003, 01:39	#65 (permalink)
Sporting FC Fan Guest Posts: n/a	Can you answer the question: Do you agree that Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) encompased what is now modern day Portugal plus the northern part Galicia and that Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) encompassed the rest of the peninsula, that is, modern day Spain without Galicia? A simple yes/no will do.

9th December 2003, 01:41	#67 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a	Ulterior = Baetica Hmmmmmmmmmm! Sevilla!

9th December 2003, 01:46	#69 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a	Well, Baetica + Lusitania. Betis, Sevilla, Andalucia, Classic Spain, you cannot get more Spanish than that.

9th December 2003, 02:02	#70 (permalink)
Sporting FC Fan Guest Posts: n/a	Ok add the region south, latter to be known as Baetica and we'll move along. Can you now confirm that Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) fragmented into the Roman provinces of Lusitania and Baetica. And that Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) became Tarraconessis. So in essence the evolution is as below: Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) fragments to 1) Lusitania (representing most of modern day Portugal) 2) Baetica (representing the South of modern day Spain) Hispania Citerior (Nearer Spain) becomes 1) Tarraconessis (which took what is now Galicia from Hispania Ulterior (Further Spain) and represents much of modern day Spain Simple yes/no will do.

9th December 2003, 02:03	#71 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a	Yes, now what?

9th December 2003, 02:07	#72 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a	They have made a shit of Sagunto BTW. Terrible, considering its importance.

9th December 2003, 02:20	#75 (permalink)
WeasteDevil Guest Posts: n/a	I must say Sporting, your English is very good for a second language.

9th December 2003, 05:00	#79 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,083	This may be getting off topic , but why does Spain need to split? What the hell would be the point? Should Bavaria break away from Germany? Should Piedmont break away from the rest of Italy? Isn't this all a little crazy?