Three youths laughed as they were sentenced to life for kicking a man to death.

Plechazunga · 21st April 2008, 13:11

I don't know what I'd do. I do know that you can't stop young people getting hold of drink and drugs if they want to - at least, not without turning society authoritarian. Murders have always taken place, and they've probably always been made more likely by the presence of intoxicants.

Some of your proposals seem sensible enough; every one of them would cost more money. The question is then whether the problem is bad enough to commit the resources that would take, which would of course mean taking them away from other areas.

That decision has to be made soberly, on the basis of good statistics about whether the rate of such crimes really has gone up, or whether even if it hasn't, there has been a shift in the wind of society at large, and it's now prepared to commit more of its resources to addressing cases of juvenile murder.

What it shouldn't be based on is political pressure in response to a wave of press hyperbole after a couple of highly-publicised recent crimes.

Marching · 21st April 2008, 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

I don't know what I'd do. I do know that you can't stop young people getting hold of drink and drugs if they want to - at least, not without turning society authoritarian. Murders have always taken place, and they've probably always been made more likely by the presence of intoxicants.

Some of your proposals seem sensible enough; every one of them would cost more money. The question is then whether the problem is bad enough to commit the resources that would take, which would of course mean taking them away from other areas.

That decision has to be made soberly, on the basis of good statistics about whether the rate of such crimes really has gone up, or whether even if it hasn't, there has been a shift in the wind of society at large, and it's now prepared to commit more of its resources to addressing cases of juvenile murder.

What it shouldn't be based on is political pressure in response to a wave of press hyperbole after a couple of highly-publicised recent crimes.

I am not so naive to believe you can 100% stop young people getting hold of drugs but surely something must be done to stop, what seems to be an ever growing number of them, ruining theirs and others lives.

Nor am I naive enough to believe this issue only involves "...a couple of highly-publicised recent crimes."

Through my wife's work, I am sick and tired of hearing/seeing/reading of kids lives being ruined by drugs and drink...whether that be through their own use or their parents use.

Sadly it does come down to money....that, and competent people working in the various child protection agencies. Hopefully staff can be better trained but the money, with the country in its present fucked up state, will be harder to come by.

Plechazunga · 21st April 2008, 13:48

I didn't say the issue involved only a couple of highly-publicised recent crimes. I said decisions shouldn't be made on the back of press responses to them.

Nor should it be made on the back of anecdotal evidence. Either such crimes have increased, or they haven't. Whatever the general feeling is.

I don't know if the country is in any more of a fucked-up state than it ever has been. I suspect not, simply because it's richer than it ever has been. It's certainly the case that if you look at cultural commentators in every generation, a large number of them always claim society is fucked and declining. Go back to the Norman conquest and further, it was ever thus.

Wibble · 21st April 2008, 13:54

How about only allowing people with a breeding licence to reproduce.

The Daily Mail would be all for it.

noodlehair · 21st April 2008, 14:01

There's definitely been a significant increase in the amount of kids getting hold of and abusing alcohol Plech, even from when I was at school.

I don't know how you'd back that up with proven stats, nor whether it's led to an increase in related violent crime, but considering what you already can prove alcohol abuse to be related to, I'd say it's definitely something that could do with looking into.

The problem is always finding the resources. There's also no doubt that the media spiral things out of proportion. Going by the image you get from the likes of The Sun, you'd think every group of kids standing on a street corner would stab your face into oblivion just for looking at them.

Marching · 21st April 2008, 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

I didn't say the issue involved only a couple of highly-publicised recent crimes. I said decisions shouldn't be made on the back of press responses to them.

Nor should it be made on the back of anecdotal evidence. Either such crimes have increased, or they haven't. Whatever the general feeling is.

I don't know if the country is in any more of a fucked-up state than it ever has been. I suspect not, simply because it's richer than it ever has been. It's certainly the case that if you look at cultural commentators in every generation, a large number of them always claim society is fucked and declining. Go back to the Norman conquest and further, it was ever thus.

I am not particularly bothered whether there have been more such crimes or not....the fact they occur at all is reason to address them.

I said "present" fucked up state and again I am not concerned whether it is worse now than at the time of the Norman conquest or not.

Something has to be done....certainly more than throwing a lot of maybes around.

Plechazunga · 21st April 2008, 14:17

Whether they need to be addressed in new ways, whether something different has to be done, etc., all depends on a cost-benefit analysis that takes into account what resources are available... it's not just intrinsically obvious, on the grounds that murder is a terrible thing, which it obviously is and always has been.

Wibble · 21st April 2008, 14:21

I left the country and moved to a nice family orientated suburb.

Perhaps everyone should do the same?

Although I suspect there may be a flaw in my cunning plan.

topper · 21st April 2008, 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by noodlehair

Aye, that's far better than I could ever put it.

and I don't think the offenders smirking at their punishment tells you anything, aside from them being lunatics. 20 years is a long time to keep a smirk on your face.

The first step in any sane justice system should never be retribution. First off, punishment and retribution arn't quite the same thing, and secondly, there shouldn't be a first step as such. It's about getting the right balance, with the main purpose being to protect people from each other

Protecting the innocent is the first step and if it means more longer sentences then so be it

Marching · 21st April 2008, 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

Whether they need to be addressed in new ways, whether something different has to be done, etc., all depends on a cost-benefit analysis that takes into account what resources are available... it's not just intrinsically obvious, on the grounds that murder is a terrible thing, which it obviously is and always has been.

In your cost-benefit analysis what price do you put on a 13 year old having to go into the care system because her parents are too drugged/drunk to look after her only for to live another 4 years before she dies of a drug overdose?

In your cost-benefit analysis what price do you put on a person having their life kicked out of them by some drugged up thug?

2 real cases of real lives fucked up by drink and drugs....I could go on with many more but will leave it at that.

It is blindingly obvious something different has to be done as the current system or lack of it has too many individuals slipping through the net.

Plechazunga · 21st April 2008, 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wibble

I left the country and moved to a nice family orientated suburb.

Perhaps everyone should do the same?

Although I suspect there may be a flaw in my cunning plan.

The flaw is that I'm sending Mithun round to keep you company

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marching

In your cost-benefit analysis what price do you put on a 13 year old having to go into the care system because their parents are too drugged/drunk to look after her only for to live another 4 years before she dies of a drug overdose?

In your cost-benefit analysis what price do you put on a person having their life kicked out of them by some drugged up thug?

2 real cases of real lives fucked up by drink and drugs....I could go on with many more but will leave it at that.

It is blindingly obvious something different has to be done as the current system or lack of it has too many individuals slipping through the net.

Your rhetoric's designed to make it sound callous to attach a price to human life, especially the lives of children.

In practice, that's something we all subscribe to, otherwise public funds would be spent on nothing but child protection and welfare.

golden_blunder · 21st April 2008, 15:09

have e-juries

start a thread with the crime that they are accused off

the admins start a poll

everyone votes for 10-20 years or beheading

sorted

Nick 0208 Ldn · 21st April 2008, 18:56

It is an easy thing to be lenient with your views when looking from afar, and cannot relate to an incident through personal experience or some strong belief.

If you feel that 20 years is a fitting punishment for what we are discussing then we are simply going to have agree to disagree on that. Someone is brutally murdered and you believe that a very severe response is for the guilty party to spend a mere quarter of an average lifespan in a modern day prison?

Last year we were burgled, a crime of a quite lesser magnitude to be sure, however if taht individual(s) were caught and arrested i'd want them to be sent to jail. Where would theft feature on your scale of punishment? Community service and a fine? That is all that the loss of property, and the emotional and psychological damage is valued at in the present day?

If society continues on as it is now, it will bo no giant leap for the neighbourhood watchers of old to become neighbhourhood enforcers. Is that what we want?

topper · 21st April 2008, 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick 0208 Ldn

It is an easy thing to be lenient with your views when looking from afar, and cannot relate to an incident through personal experience or some strong belief.

If you feel that 20 years is a fitting punishment for what we are discussing then we are simply going to have agree to disagree on that. Someone is brutally murdered and you believe that a very severe response is for the guilty party to spend a mere quarter of an average lifespan in a modern day prison?

Last year we were burgled, a crime of a quite lesser magnitude to be sure, however if taht individual(s) were caught and arrested i'd want them to be sent to jail. Where would theft feature on your scale of punishment? Community service and a fine? That is all that the loss of property, and the emotional and psychological damage is valued at in the present day?

If society continues on as it is now, it will bo no giant leap for the neighbourhood watchers of old to become neighbhourhood enforcers. Is that what we want?

exactly - until people are exposed to crime/violence themselves or to their family members they will carry on with this objective rational argument whilst all the time other innocent folk are getting shafted.

Its an argument that you'll never win as things stand - but I guarantee you this - if those arguing against you now are unfortunate enough to suffer they'll sing a different tune

Marching · 21st April 2008, 20:46

A convicted murderer from Teesside has been told he will die in prison after strangling and stabbing his wife.

Douglas Vinter, 38, was separated from Anne White when he stabbed her to death at his mother's house in February.

The bodybuilder, who was released from prison in 2005 after serving nine years for killing a workmate, later told police "I had my reasons".

Vinter, of no fixed address, admitted murder and was given a whole life sentence at Teesside Crown Court.

The court heard how he met Ms White while on prison leave, and the pair married in 2006.

They separated seven months later, after Vinter twice beat her at their home in Eston.

She was out with friends on 10 February when he bundled her into a car and took her to his mother's house in Normanby.

Police found her body in the kitchen when Vinter, who used anabolic steroids and had been drinking and taking cocaine, handed himself into police the following morning.

Ms White had been strangled and stabbed four times, and two knives - one of them broken in half - were found on the floor.

The Recorder of Middlesbrough, Judge Peter Fox QC, said: "The extreme violence which you used is described as continuing, as far as can be seen.

"You therefore fall into that small category of people who should be deprived permanently of their liberty. I therefore pass a whole life sentence."

Vinter, formerly a railway signalman, was jailed in 1996 for the knife murder of train worker Robert Eden, 24, in a railway cabin.

Shame he was deemed suitable for release after only 9 years the last time he murdered someone.

Still, it shows there is the facility in place to give whole of life sentences...maybe more judges should use it.

noodlehair · 21st April 2008, 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marching

Still, it shows there is the facility in place to give whole of life sentences...maybe more judges should use it.

They can't. Frosty went over this, here;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosty

There seems to be a huge amount of confusion here as to what a life sentence actually means.

I hope to clear this up.

In English law, there is one, and only one sentence that an individual can receive if they are found guilty of the offence of murder - mandatory life imprisonment.

The judge has absolutely no discretion when awarding this sentence.

However, special rules apply to this sentence.

Judges are allowed to set a minimum 'tariff' period that the defendant must serve. This period is the amount of time that the defendant 'deserves' to be locked up for the purposes of retribution.

After the tariff period has been served, the defendant can be released on licence if, and only if they are judged, by the parole board, not to be a threat to society.

The starting 'tariff' is set at fifteen years. There are a range of mitigating circumstances that can raise or lower the minimum tariff.

Sentencing guidelines dictate that a judge can set a 'life means life' sentence where:

The defendant kills two or more people with premeditation
Or he kills a child, either sexually or sadistically

Most cases will have a tariff of fifteen years.

Release on licence

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D...PQiYYJvo&hl=en

Above is a good summary from the Law Commission.

When a convicted murderer is released from prison, they are 'released on licence'.

This means that their conviction will never become 'spent', like, for example, a burglary conviction. They are therefore on licence for the rest of their lives. As such their behaviour is closely scrutinised, and they are, in effect, on perpetual probation.

Any violation of the licence's terms, such as committing another criminal offence, will result in their licence being revoked, and them serving the rest of their sentence (life imprisonment).

Also, for a lawyer's view from the seventies, thsi may be of interest to some of you. His arguments, though dated, are still relevant today:

http://bjc.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/13/2/188.pdf

If there's a failing in the instance you described Marching, it's perhaps with the people who decided he was fit for release. Or perhaps even more so the people who chose not to act when he became violent again after his release.

You're not going to find a perfect system, given the range of different circumstances surrounding a murder, and the fact that some people are just complete nutjobs.

topper · 21st April 2008, 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by noodlehair

They can't. Frosty went over this, here;

If there's a failing in the instance you described Marching, it's perhaps with the people who decided he was fit for release. Or perhaps even more so the people who chose not to act when he became violent again after his release.

You're not going to find a perfect system, given the range of different circumstances surrounding a murder, and the fact that some people are just complete nutjobs.

if the cunt was given a real life sentence it wouldn't have happened - and the poor woman would be alive today. To give people the responsibility of judging if eg Hindly is sane or not is impossible and they shouldn't be put in that position

I wonder how you would rationalise all your arguments if face to face with her kids/family/friends etc

noodlehair · 21st April 2008, 21:39

Fuck sake

Read Frosty's post. He was given a "real" life sentence

topper · 21st April 2008, 21:43

Noodles wake up - a real life sentence would have meant him still locked up - what you're talking about is a Micky Mouse life sentence of 9 fecking years

noodlehair · 21st April 2008, 21:44

I thought we got over this little stumbling block earlier

topper · 21st April 2008, 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by noodlehair

I thought we got over this little stumbling block earlier

I thought so and presumably the woman that was killed would have hoped so to

Plechazunga · 21st April 2008, 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick 0208 Ldn

It is an easy thing to be lenient with your views when looking from afar, and cannot relate to an incident through personal experience or some strong belief.

If you feel that 20 years is a fitting punishment for what we are discussing then we are simply going to have agree to disagree on that. Someone is brutally murdered and you believe that a very severe response is for the guilty party to spend a mere quarter of an average lifespan in a modern day prison?

Last year we were burgled, a crime of a quite lesser magnitude to be sure, however if taht individual(s) were caught and arrested i'd want them to be sent to jail. Where would theft feature on your scale of punishment? Community service and a fine? That is all that the loss of property, and the emotional and psychological damage is valued at in the present day?

If society continues on as it is now, it will bo no giant leap for the neighbourhood watchers of old to become neighbhourhood enforcers. Is that what we want?

I find it just as amazing the way you're trivialising twenty years in prison, as if it's ten minutes. Twenty years! Also, it's not "just" a quarter of a life-span, as noods said it's usually their whole youth that's taken. If there's a failure of imagination on anyone's part here, it's yours, not mine.

Yes, I think burglary of a certain gravity should be punishable by prison, which it is. I do believe criminals should be punished, to characterise those who believe a life sentence is a pretty fecking long time as woolly or PC is a bizarre position.

The other aspect of course is error. Some people are inevitably going to get falsely convicted. That's a risk all of us take, but its a good reason for moderation in sentencing. That's why I'm against the death penalty, for instance. I'm prepared to take the risk of spending much of my life in prison, as the price of reasonably low crime. A life in prison is some life, after all... you can read, improve yourself etc. If I was running the risk of being murdered by the state due to error, I'd probably move to another country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by topper

exactly - until people are exposed to crime/violence themselves or to their family members they will carry on with this objective rational argument whilst all the time other innocent folk are getting shafted.

Its an argument that you'll never win as things stand - but I guarantee you this - if those arguing against you now are unfortunate enough to suffer they'll sing a different tune

When you find yourself criticizing a viewpoint on the grounds that it's objective and rational, I reckon that's a good sign that you're wrong.

Civilised systems of justice take into account the suffering of victims when arranging retribution, but they take it out of their hands and consider the case as dispassionately as possible according to legal norms, without denying that vengeance is part of the intention.

Aeschylus had this shit worked out in 458 BC.

topper · 21st April 2008, 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

I find it just as amazing the way you're trivialising twenty years in prison, as if it's ten minutes. Twenty years! Also, it's not "just" a quarter of a life-span, as noods said it's usually their whole youth that's taken. If there's a failure of imagination on anyone's part here, it's yours, not mine.

Yes, I think burglary of a certain gravity should be punishable by prison, which it is. I do believe criminals should be punished, to characterise those who believe a life sentence is a pretty fecking long time as woolly or PC is a bizarre position.

The other aspect of course is error. Some people are inevitably going to get falsely convicted. That's a risk all of us take, but its a good reason for moderation in sentencing. That's why I'm against the death penalty, for instance. I'm prepared to take the risk of spending much of my life in prison, as the price of reasonably low crime. A life in prison is some life, after all... you can read, improve yourself etc. If I was running the risk of being murdered by the state due to error, I'd probably move to another country.

When you find yourself criticizing a viewpoint on the grounds that it's objective and rational, I reckon that's a good sign that you're wrong.

Civilised systems of justice take into account the suffering of victims when arranging retribution, but they take it out of their hands and consider the case as dispassionately as possible according to legal norms, without denying that vengeance is part of the intention.

Aeschylus had his shit worked t out in 458 BC.

so somebody kills somebody and gets life then is released 9 years later to kill again

Wonderful that - isn't justice grand

Plechazunga · 21st April 2008, 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by topper

so somebody kills somebody and gets life then is released 9 years later to kill again

Wonderful that - isn't justice grand

No, justice is flawed, like all human institutions...welcome to the messiness of real life.

Your way would be equally or more flawed, with the prisons crammed, changed men who might be useful members of society locked away for decades longer than necessary at taxpayers' expense, and a considerably larger number of wrongly convicted men robbed of their entire life.

topper · 21st April 2008, 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

No, justice is flawed, like all human institutions...welcome to the messiness of real life.

Your way would be equally or more flawed, with the prisons crammed, changed men who might be useful members of society locked away for decades longer than necessary at taxpayers' expense, and a considerably larger number of wrongly convicted men robbed of their entire life.

or taking the other view a woman above plus probably hundreds if not thousands of others able to live their lives to the full

you seem to care more from the perps I prefer to think and feel for the victims

21st April 2008, 18:56	#93 (permalink)
Nick 0208 Ldn First Team Sub Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Londinium - Never stop dreaming. Posts: 6,345	Re; the general reaction to my last post It is an easy thing to be lenient with your views when looking from afar, and cannot relate to an incident through personal experience or some strong belief. If you feel that 20 years is a fitting punishment for what we are discussing then we are simply going to have agree to disagree on that. Someone is brutally murdered and you believe that a very severe response is for the guilty party to spend a mere quarter of an average lifespan in a modern day prison? Last year we were burgled, a crime of a quite lesser magnitude to be sure, however if taht individual(s) were caught and arrested i'd want them to be sent to jail. Where would theft feature on your scale of punishment? Community service and a fine? That is all that the loss of property, and the emotional and psychological damage is valued at in the present day? If society continues on as it is now, it will bo no giant leap for the neighbourhood watchers of old to become neighbhourhood enforcers. Is that what we want?

21st April 2008, 13:11	#81 (permalink)
Plechazunga Phones, soup, paint and chairs are troubling. Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the principality is chief executive of David evroshampiona Gil. Posts: 49,714	I don't know what I'd do. I do know that you can't stop young people getting hold of drink and drugs if they want to - at least, not without turning society authoritarian. Murders have always taken place, and they've probably always been made more likely by the presence of intoxicants. Some of your proposals seem sensible enough; every one of them would cost more money. The question is then whether the problem is bad enough to commit the resources that would take, which would of course mean taking them away from other areas. That decision has to be made soberly, on the basis of good statistics about whether the rate of such crimes really has gone up, or whether even if it hasn't, there has been a shift in the wind of society at large, and it's now prepared to commit more of its resources to addressing cases of juvenile murder. What it shouldn't be based on is political pressure in response to a wave of press hyperbole after a couple of highly-publicised recent crimes.

21st April 2008, 13:48	#83 (permalink)
Plechazunga Phones, soup, paint and chairs are troubling. Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the principality is chief executive of David evroshampiona Gil. Posts: 49,714	I didn't say the issue involved only a couple of highly-publicised recent crimes. I said decisions shouldn't be made on the back of press responses to them. Nor should it be made on the back of anecdotal evidence. Either such crimes have increased, or they haven't. Whatever the general feeling is. I don't know if the country is in any more of a fucked-up state than it ever has been. I suspect not, simply because it's richer than it ever has been. It's certainly the case that if you look at cultural commentators in every generation, a large number of them always claim society is fucked and declining. Go back to the Norman conquest and further, it was ever thus.

21st April 2008, 13:54	#84 (permalink)
Wibble Teeth like a reindeer. Hung like a horse. Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Ingadus Speramus Posts: 34,634	How about only allowing people with a breeding licence to reproduce. The Daily Mail would be all for it.

21st April 2008, 14:01	#85 (permalink)
noodlehair Giggsy Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes. Posts: 31,434	There's definitely been a significant increase in the amount of kids getting hold of and abusing alcohol Plech, even from when I was at school. I don't know how you'd back that up with proven stats, nor whether it's led to an increase in related violent crime, but considering what you already can prove alcohol abuse to be related to, I'd say it's definitely something that could do with looking into. The problem is always finding the resources. There's also no doubt that the media spiral things out of proportion. Going by the image you get from the likes of The Sun, you'd think every group of kids standing on a street corner would stab your face into oblivion just for looking at them.

21st April 2008, 14:17	#87 (permalink)
Plechazunga Phones, soup, paint and chairs are troubling. Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the principality is chief executive of David evroshampiona Gil. Posts: 49,714	Whether they need to be addressed in new ways, whether something different has to be done, etc., all depends on a cost-benefit analysis that takes into account what resources are available... it's not just intrinsically obvious, on the grounds that murder is a terrible thing, which it obviously is and always has been.

21st April 2008, 14:21	#88 (permalink)
Wibble Teeth like a reindeer. Hung like a horse. Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Ingadus Speramus Posts: 34,634	I left the country and moved to a nice family orientated suburb. Perhaps everyone should do the same? Although I suspect there may be a flaw in my cunning plan.

21st April 2008, 15:09	#92 (permalink)
golden_blunder Manager Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Swimming against a tide of shite Posts: 44,394	have e-juries start a thread with the crime that they are accused off the admins start a poll everyone votes for 10-20 years or beheading sorted

21st April 2008, 20:46	#95 (permalink)
Marching Active Admin Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 27,513	A convicted murderer from Teesside has been told he will die in prison after strangling and stabbing his wife. Douglas Vinter, 38, was separated from Anne White when he stabbed her to death at his mother's house in February. The bodybuilder, who was released from prison in 2005 after serving nine years for killing a workmate, later told police "I had my reasons". Vinter, of no fixed address, admitted murder and was given a whole life sentence at Teesside Crown Court. The court heard how he met Ms White while on prison leave, and the pair married in 2006. They separated seven months later, after Vinter twice beat her at their home in Eston. She was out with friends on 10 February when he bundled her into a car and took her to his mother's house in Normanby. Police found her body in the kitchen when Vinter, who used anabolic steroids and had been drinking and taking cocaine, handed himself into police the following morning. Ms White had been strangled and stabbed four times, and two knives - one of them broken in half - were found on the floor. The Recorder of Middlesbrough, Judge Peter Fox QC, said: "The extreme violence which you used is described as continuing, as far as can be seen. "You therefore fall into that small category of people who should be deprived permanently of their liberty. I therefore pass a whole life sentence." Vinter, formerly a railway signalman, was jailed in 1996 for the knife murder of train worker Robert Eden, 24, in a railway cabin. Shame he was deemed suitable for release after only 9 years the last time he murdered someone. Still, it shows there is the facility in place to give whole of life sentences...maybe more judges should use it.

21st April 2008, 21:39	#98 (permalink)
noodlehair Giggsy Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes. Posts: 31,434	Fuck sake Read Frosty's post. He was given a "real" life sentence

21st April 2008, 21:43	#99 (permalink)
topper Pooper Trooper Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 12,021	Noodles wake up - a real life sentence would have meant him still locked up - what you're talking about is a Micky Mouse life sentence of 9 fecking years

21st April 2008, 21:44	#100 (permalink)
noodlehair Giggsy Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes. Posts: 31,434	I thought we got over this little stumbling block earlier