The Union within the EU

rcoobc · 9th December 2011, 22:14

Was Cameron brave? Was it necessary? Is Britain going to profit from it or ist it going to falter? Will this save the Euro? Will the Union vote as a bloc?

December 9th Sources

Spoiler

December 9th - Economist - Charlemagne - Britain and the EU summit: Europe's great divorce | The Economist

Quote:

Europe's great divorce
WE JOURNALISTS are probably too bleary-eyed after a sleepless night to understand the full significance of what has just happened in Brussels. What is clear is that after a long, hard and rancorous negotiation, at about 5am this morning the European Union split in a fundamental way...

December 9th - Open Europe - Mats Persson - Open Europe - independent think tank calling for radical reform of the EU

Quote:

“In what was a very difficult situation, Cameron had little choice but to wield his veto. He was under domestic political pressure but, most importantly, he genuinely felt that there were vital UK interests at stake. However, this use of political capital will only be a sound investment if it is followed up with a concerted push for a more flexible, adaptable and competitive EU in which the UK can feel at home.”

December 9th - Telegraph - James Kirkup - EU treaty: David Cameron stands as the lone man of Europe - Telegraph

Quote:

David Cameron took a decisive step to distance Britain from the European Union on Friday as he became the first prime minister to veto a new EU treaty.

Mr Cameron provoked widespread anger among European leaders by refusing to back a deal to rescue the eurozone, delighting Tories and raising questions about Britain’s future in the EU.
After Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, led objections to his “unacceptable” demands for legal protections for the City of London, the Prime Minister refused to give Britain’s backing for a new treaty to create a “fiscal union” among eurozone members.

December 9th - Guardian - Many - David Cameron blocks EU treaty with veto, casting Britain adrift in Europe | World news | The Guardian

Quote:

David Cameron blocks EU treaty with veto, casting Britain adrift in Europe
EU leaders poised to line up 26-1 in support of Franco-German blueprint, but PM had apparent blessing of Nick Clegg

David Cameron plunged Britain's position in Europe into the greatest uncertainty in a generation as he used his veto to block a new EU-wide treaty and left at least 23 other countries to forge a pact to salvage the single currency.

With the apparent blessing of the pro-European deputy prime minister, Nick Clegg – and the subsequent delight of Tory backbenchers – Cameron deployed the ultimate weapon in European summitry at around 2.30am yesterday.

December 9th - BBC - Stephanie Flanders - BBC News - A good deal for the UK - or the euro?

Quote:

A good deal for the UK - or the euro?

So many questions today. But here are the big two: can the plan agreed in the early hours of Friday save the euro? And was David Cameron right to judge that it was in the UK's national interest to keep us out of it?

There's room for plenty of doubt on both fronts. Where there's no argument is that the world has changed.

Considering this new landscape, and the flaws in the plan to save the euro, some brave souls may even say that it is no longer even in the UK's long-term interest for the single currency to survive in its current form.

But given the short-term catastrophe that would follow from one or more countries leaving the euro, that is not something any serving UK politician is likely to wish for any time soon.

10th December Sources

Spoiler

PJ · 9th December 2011, 22:17

I was calling him a cunt last week (and with my union hat on I still think he is one today) but fair play to him for taking a stand against the USE.

rcoobc · 9th December 2011, 22:18

Cue Team Brian GB telling us that Britain's banking sector provides 30% of Britain's GDP so Cameron's decision to protect it was completely necessary. This is probably correct, but this will be the view of us now and it may turn out to be radically different in the future.

Sarkozy has managed to do something Cameron never could, take power back from the EU. By creating this 17 bloc group which is controlled by the national governments and not the EU he has created a powerful force which France and Germany will be at the heart of.

Agent Red · 9th December 2011, 22:28

Think it's foolish personally. Being the only country not to have signed in isolates us completely, and given that the EU are our greatest political and economic allies, I don't think that's a wise thing to do.

I don't believe Europe do everything right, and I was never pro-Euro as a currency. I think it's very hard, nigh on impossible, to impose specific finance restrictions like that across such a wide range of economies. However I don't believe the City of London should be afforded special protection in this instance, and I think we've taken a massive political and economic gamble to do just that.

It may provide short term success as people ride the wave of joy that being seen to 'stick two fingers up' to Europe provides, plus we'll avoid some of the immediate measures that will come into place. But to have muted our voice in Europe to this level has huge long term implications and those really concern me. This isn't the 19th century when we could afford to stand alone, we need to cooperate with our allies, and I think long term this decision won't benefit us.

MikeUpNorth · 9th December 2011, 22:28

Cameron had no choice given how he'd find it near impossible to push a new European treaty through parliament right now - 81 Conservative MPs defied a three-line government whip last time round. There is also the issue that Holland and Ireland are constitutionally obliged to put new EU treaties to a public referendum, and it seems hard to imagine that Tory MPs wouldn't demand the same and try and turn it into an 'in/out' referendum on the EU. That would obviously rip apart the coalition. And obviously his 'protection of British (read City of London) interests' line has some merit, and the financiers bankroll his party so he has to play by their rules... So no, Cameron wasn't brave, he had no other option.

From a wider perspective I think this new EU treaty is a bit of a travesty anyway. Obviously it runs counter to ideals of national sovereignty and democracy by insisting on central EU oversight of national budgets. But the bigger issue is that this is a treaty very much designed by the ruling right-wing parties of Germany and France, and by making 'balanced budgets' mandatory in law it effectively bans the fiscal policies future left-wing governments may want to implement to encourage growth.

mjs020294 · 9th December 2011, 22:31

Fuck the EU, fuck Germany and god damned FUCK France. Should have told them to take a hike a long time ago. Without the UK supporting the shambles that is the European Union it will fall on its ass....actually it will do that anyway but it will happen far quicker without the Brits subsidizing it.

rcoobc · 9th December 2011, 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjs020294

Fuck the EU, fuck Germany and god damned FUCK France. Should have told them to take a hike a long time ago. Without the UK supporting the shambles that is the European Union it will fall on its ass....actually it will do that anyway but it will happen far quicker without the Brits subsidizing it.

Monetary unions across multiple states never work do they?

711 · 9th December 2011, 22:46

Missed a lot with working and that, but three things come to mind:

Who will make fiscal decisions in this new fiscal unity? It's either everyone does what the Germans say, or there's some sort of democratic process and Germany gives up control of it's own economy. Really? I don't think the Germans have thought that through.

The agreement does nothing to help countries pay off existing debt, which they have to constantly refinance.

Cameron would be best having a referendum now, and appearing to be in control of our exit from the EEC, otherwise he will be repeatedly humiliated as the new union lashes it's frustrations out on the uk. He probably thinks his best hope is that the Euro falls soon, and everyone says he was right all along - that won't happen, they'll blame him for not standing with them.

er, and a fourth, the libs must be a bit desperate now for a get-out from the coalition, they might see this as that get-out, and then it's election time.

niMic · 9th December 2011, 22:47

Well, the one good thing about this whole mess is that the opposition to the EU has never been stronger in Norway. Twice we've narrowly voted against joining; I don't think we'll have a third anytime soon.

Agent Red · 9th December 2011, 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjs020294

Fuck the EU, fuck Germany and god damned FUCK France. Should have told them to take a hike a long time ago. Without the UK supporting the shambles that is the European Union it will fall on its ass....actually it will do that anyway but it will happen far quicker without the Brits subsidizing it.

The patriot in me wishes this was true. But Germany have been a bigger player than us in Europe for a long time now. To think they'll collapse without us is delusional, they're perfectly able to cope.

rcoobc · 9th December 2011, 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by 711

er, and a fourth, the libs must be a bit desperate now for a get-out from the coalition, they might see this as that get-out, and then it's election time.

Meant to put that in the OP, the Lib Dem's must be feeling pretty powerless. Clegg has to go after this campaign.

MikeUpNorth · 9th December 2011, 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by 711

er, and a fourth, the libs must be a bit desperate now for a get-out from the coalition, they might see this as that get-out, and then it's election time.

The Lib Dems want anything but. An election now and they'd be (rightly) annihilated.

rcoobc · 9th December 2011, 22:58

Hahaha

Spoiler

Everyone, don't listen to any legitimate worries the BBC has about Cameron's veto, the Daily Mail is here to tell you that the there is no situation where the further we are from the EU, the better it is for the UK. They do no good, never have, Cameron is a hero. A victory for the UK!

Great

711 · 9th December 2011, 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeUpNorth

The Lib Dems want anything but. An election now and they'd be (rightly) annihilated.

I can see that. But to get any vote at all they need to show that they have the testicles to stand up and be counted, and this is crucial and it gives them a chance to get something instead of nothing. Sorry to be sexist, it's late.

Smores · 9th December 2011, 23:07

I'm just left dismayed by the fact the cunts going to gain popularity from this, at least until proven wrong anyway. As much as many will cheer sticking the fingers up to euro it's a sad situation overall.

Team Brian GB · 9th December 2011, 23:09

There was no way we were going to get a deal, the fundamental problem is we are a laissez-faire country in a democratic-socialist bloc, if we give it more and more power then it will only come back to hurt us in the future. How regulation of our financial services has anything to do with Brussels I don't know, it is seventeen countries monetary failure why we are where we are, it has nothing to do with us so we are not going to screw with the square mile as part of fixing the Eurozone's problems so somebody can screw up later on, especially so as Germany is still resisting the ECB from becoming a lender of last resort.

Nothing ever surprises me about the French who have always been one-dimensional in their quest for greater power and influence all of the time, it would not surprise me in the least if they are deliberately putting Britain under pressure to force us so much into the periphery that we pull the plug on our participation entirely. There is going to be another treaty at some point, the EU will want something more, who knows what they want but it will certainly be to our ire.

Team Brian GB · 9th December 2011, 23:13

Now I wonder if they still think a financial transactions tax is a good idea now the UK will most certainly not be a part of it, or will they drop it as instead it will make the UK more desirable to actors in the industry in Paris and Frankfurt thus making London stronger and not weaker.

Team Brian GB · 9th December 2011, 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent Red

The patriot in me wishes this was true. But Germany have been a bigger player than us in Europe for a long time now. To think they'll collapse without us is delusional, they're perfectly able to cope.

He probably means in terms of British funding of the EU, the United Kingdom's net contribution to the EU is over £50 billion over the budget period.

And Germany has always been a bigger player than us, since time immemorial Germany has devoted its foreign policy attention to Europe whereas the UK has always looked worldwide, dipping into European affairs to keep the peace.

711 · 9th December 2011, 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Brian GB

He probably means in terms of British funding of the EU, the United Kingdom's net contribution to the EU is over £50 billion a year.

That smells of a GCHQ type figure. If it was true we'd have left.

Team Brian GB · 9th December 2011, 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by 711

That smells of a GCHQ type figure. If it was true we'd have left.

I meant over the budget period, the EU spends about £110 billion a year so I realised when I saw it live.

SteveJ · 9th December 2011, 23:33

I don't understand the arguments pro and contra-EU; I just regret that it's being dressed-up as the ol' boneheaded Little Englander-style of patriotism. This isn't Dad's Army, and it's not 1939.

rcoobc · 9th December 2011, 23:34

And they put lots of lovely benches all over the place. I know because they all say "Funded with money from the EU".

Team Brian GB · 9th December 2011, 23:41

What I always find amusing at these sort of junctures, that when a country says no like the Irish did to the Lisbon Treaty, all those who are supportive of the European Union collectively go mental about how said country is detrimental, is being disruptive, is being dangerous etc.

I saw a really ranty segment from the Prime Minister or President of Lithuania on the news a while ago, about how we are holding up Europe for the rest of them, Lithuania? What has this woman got to do with the British PM supporting the UK economy and the regulation of it?

You also see at such times what the end game is for these sort of people, that they are not content with Europe as it is, they want to take integration further, and further and further, and when somebody says hold on they go mental.

711 · 9th December 2011, 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Brian GB

What I always find amusing at these sort of junctures, that when a country says no like the Irish did to the Lisbon Treaty, all those who are supportive of the European Union collectively go mental about how said country is detrimental, is being disruptive, is being dangerous etc.

I saw a really ranty segment from the Prime Minister or President of Lithuania on the news a while ago, about how we are holding up Europe for the rest of them, Lithuania? What has this woman got to do with the British PM supporting the UK economy and the regulation of it?

You also see at such times what the end game is for these sort of people, that they are not content with Europe as it is, they want to take integration further, and further and further, and when somebody says hold on they go mental.

Sinking in, is it?

Agent Red · 9th December 2011, 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Brian GB

He probably means in terms of British funding of the EU, the United Kingdom's net contribution to the EU is over £50 billion over the budget period.

And Germany has always been a bigger player than us, since time immemorial Germany has devoted its foreign policy attention to Europe whereas the UK has always looked worldwide, dipping into European affairs to keep the peace.

European Union statistics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Struggled to find up to date stats, but these paint a general picture.

Point is all this 'fuck France' 'fuck Germany' 'we're propping up the EU' spiel isn't exactly true. We're a big player and contribute a lot, often without gain on policies which don't fit our economic mould, but we're not the biggest contributor and Germany in particular are certainly not a leech to the EU, they're one of the key providers.

rcoobc · 9th December 2011, 23:46

But you can't say the Conservatives don't have their own agenda. Just like how they have constantly ruled out any change in the electoral system (before offering it to us RIP Real Change 2011), they have their own motivations for holding onto power. 99% of people who are against the EU are so for nationalist ideals, which is not exactly helping the argument. Probably 90% pro EU supporters (in the UK) are so because of socialist ideals which doesn't help the argument either.

A lot of the concepts are "too complicated for the man on the street", the simple stuff never makes the news.

Team Brian GB · 9th December 2011, 23:46

When did I say the UK was the biggest contributor and when did I say Germany was a net beneficiary?

Team Brian GB · 9th December 2011, 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by 711

Sinking in, is it?

What is sinking in? I have always been aware of that hence I was bitterly opposed to the Lisbon Treaty and in its prior existence as the European Constitution.

Team Brian GB · 9th December 2011, 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcoobc

But you can't say the Conservatives don't have their own agenda. Just like how they have constantly ruled out any change in the electoral system (before offering it to us RIP Real Change 2011), they have their own motivations for holding onto power. 99% of people who are against the EU are so for nationalist ideals, which is not exactly helping the argument. Probably 90% pro EU supporters (in the UK) are so because of socialist ideals which doesn't help the argument either.

A lot of the concepts are "too complicated for the man on the street", the simple stuff never makes the news.

I said in my first post within this thread the fundamental problem for the UK in the EU is that we are a laissez-faire country in a democratic-socialist bloc.

Agent Red · 9th December 2011, 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Brian GB

When did I say the UK was the biggest contributor and when did I say Germany was a net beneficiary?

You didn't, the poster you quoted had implied it. Wasn't against anything you've said in this thread, just in relation to you quoting his point and clarifying it.

SteveJ · 9th December 2011, 23:52

Dude, where's my country?

Team Brian GB · 9th December 2011, 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJ

Dude, where's my country?

You're Welsh right? There are some times that I think you are American.

SteveJ · 9th December 2011, 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Brian GB

You're Welsh right? There are some times that I think you are American.

I have the misfortune to live in Wales;

I have the good fortune to be a European.

rcoobc · 9th December 2011, 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Brian GB

I said in my first post within this thread the fundamental problem for the UK in the EU is that we are a laissez-faire country in a democratic-socialist bloc.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh.........

It's this sort of talk that leads the common man astray. Net spend indeed.

moses · 9th December 2011, 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Brian GB

who knows what they want but it will certainly be to our ire.

Get over yourself, and Team Brian Cameron should too. This is bigger than that. To all but sections of the Tory party.

mjs020294 · 10th December 2011, 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcoobc

Monetary unions across multiple states never work do they?

No not when they are all very different nationalities with very different agendas. Basically four countries contribute, Germany/UK/France/Italy, and the rest are blood suckers. And lets face it France, Italy and the UK have serious budget issues and EU financing will be under pressure.

If the UK pulled out the EU would fold, its simply couldn't survive losing the second largest contributor. Germany and France fair far better out of the EU deficit because they have benefit from auto exports throughout the EU.

moses · 10th December 2011, 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcoobc

Monetary unions across multiple states never work do they?

I am totally against the EU, always have been. At this point though it either has to break up or be done properly; and that is with as much fiscal homogenity across national borders as possible. The main stumbling block for the Tories is regulation, and while I agree with that in theory, there is no point going on without regulation. All or nothing now surely for Europe. Personally I'd have the nothing option, but for Britain to let all the others go deeper and opt for the periphery is risky as hell. It's very Dunkirk and all, and the BBC did show the odd statue of Churchill on the news but risky nonetheless.

Agent Red · 10th December 2011, 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by moses

I am totally against the EU, always have been. At this point though it either has to break up or be done properly; and that is with as much fiscal homogenity across national borders as possible. The main stumbling block for the Tories is regulation, and while I agree with that in theory, there is no point going on without regulation. All or nothing now surely for Europe. Personally I'd have the nothing option, but for Britain to let all the others go deeper and opt for the periphery is risky as hell. It's very Dunkirk and all, and the BBC did show the odd statue of Churchill on the news but risky nonetheless.

Do you mind elaborating on that bit, moses?

Team Brian GB · 10th December 2011, 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by moses

Get over yourself, and Team Brian Cameron should too. This is bigger than that. To all but sections of the Tory party.

Well gladly inform me, I see the benefit of Europe far more than the bulk of the Conservative Party does but by no means would I sacrifice the way the United Kingdom operates in order to please it.

If your argument is along the lines of the fact we live in a globalising world and in order to keep our influence and strength in the world the EU needs to consolidate then I can see that - I made that point only a couple of weeks ago - but the whole point of doing so would be to protect ourselves and our current standing but in getting there if we were forced to alter the ways we work and operate then it would be contradictory.

moses · 10th December 2011, 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjs020294

No not when they are all very different nationalities with very different agendas. Basically four countries contribute, Germany/UK/France/Italy, and the rest are blood suckers. And lets face it France, Italy and the UK have serious budget issues and EU financing will be under pressure.

If the UK pulled out the EU would fold, its simply couldn't survive losing the second largest contributor. Germany and France fair far better out of the EU deficit because they have benefit from auto exports throughout the EU.

How altruistic of them.

9th December 2011, 22:58	#13 (permalink)
rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Corrupting West Brom Posts: 17,197	Hahaha Spoiler How Europhile BBC turned triumph over Britain's veto into disaster Tory MPs claim broadcaster's coverage was biased The BBC was accused of reporting Britain’s veto of the eurozone rescue plan as a national catastrophe rather than a tough decision David Cameron was forced to make. Conservative MPs said the broadcaster’s ‘biased’ coverage began on Radio 4’s flagship Today programme and continued throughout the day on radio and television. Presenters used solemn tones to inform listeners about Britain becoming isolated following David Cameron’s refusal to sign a new treaty. Biased? Presenter Sophie Raworth began her broadcast of today's One O'Clock News by saying Britain had failed to sign the treaty to 'resolve' the eurozone crisis - even though critics said the treaty was only ever meant to stabilise Europe In some cases, it was several minutes into news bulletins before the BBC got round to reporting Mr Cameron’s explanation of why he had resisted pressure to hand over more powers to Brussels. On Radio 4’s 6am news bulletin, Justin Webb announced gravely: ‘Leaders of 23 EU countries are to draft a new fiscal pact to help stabilise their currency WITHOUT the involvement of Britain.’ He added: ‘President Sarkozy accused David Cameron of making a deal between all 27 countries impossible.’ It was a full two minutes into the broadcast before listeners heard Mr Cameron’s remarks explaining why he was forced into exercising Britain’s veto. Mr Cameron’s refusal to give in to Germany and France’s demands was the lead story on most of the BBC’s outlets yesterday. Grave: BBC Business Editor Robert Peston (left) said listeners on the Today programme should be 'concerned' by the veto, while Justin Webb (right) gave a sombre declaration on Radio 4's 6am bulletin today Tory MP Peter Bone complained: ‘The BBC seemed to be using language that suggested it was a disaster. It was being pro-EU and anti-British, and it was in marked contrast to how other major news organisations reported it. ‘In fact, it was a triumph for Britain and a triumph for the Prime Minister. When it comes to Europe, the BBC is institutionally biased.’ Downing Street declined to comment, but insiders said Mr Cameron’s aides were resigned to him coming under attack from ‘pro-EU media outlets’ including parts of the BBC. On Today, Business Editor Robert Peston informed listeners they should be ‘concerned’. He warned gravely: ‘For Britain, frankly, that is massively important because, if the eurozone goes down, the impact on the British economy will be hideous. 'It would inevitably tip us back into a very severe recession. So we should be concerned that this deal to save the world doesn’t seem to have materialised.’ On the BBC TV One O’Clock News, presenter Sophie Raworth began with: ‘David Cameron has dramatically refused to sign a new treaty designed to resolve the eurozone debt crisis’ – even though critics pointed out that the proposed treaty had merely sought to stabilise, rather than to resolve, the crisis. Viewers then had to wait until almost 1.03pm to hear Mr Cameron’s remarks on the story. Last year, BBC Director General Mark Thompson accepted the corporation had previously been guilty of a ‘massive’ left-wing bias. He also confessed that the BBC’s coverage of Europe had been ‘weak and rather nervous’. Critic: Tory MP and Sven Goran Erikson lookalike, Peter Bone said the BBC was being pro-EU and anti-British in contrast to other news organisations Everyone, don't listen to any legitimate worries the BBC has about Cameron's veto, the Daily Mail is here to tell you that the there is no situation where the further we are from the EU, the better it is for the UK. They do no good, never have, Cameron is a hero. A victory for the UK! Great

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9th December 2011, 22:17	#2 (permalink)
PJ Mrs Robinson's bit on the side Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Playing guess who with Samuel L Jackson Posts: 15,109	I was calling him a cunt last week (and with my union hat on I still think he is one today) but fair play to him for taking a stand against the USE.

9th December 2011, 22:18	#3 (permalink)
rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Corrupting West Brom Posts: 17,197	Cue Team Brian GB telling us that Britain's banking sector provides 30% of Britain's GDP so Cameron's decision to protect it was completely necessary. This is probably correct, but this will be the view of us now and it may turn out to be radically different in the future. Sarkozy has managed to do something Cameron never could, take power back from the EU. By creating this 17 bloc group which is controlled by the national governments and not the EU he has created a powerful force which France and Germany will be at the heart of.

9th December 2011, 22:28	#4 (permalink)
Agent Red First Team Sub Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Madchester Posts: 5,539	Think it's foolish personally. Being the only country not to have signed in isolates us completely, and given that the EU are our greatest political and economic allies, I don't think that's a wise thing to do. I don't believe Europe do everything right, and I was never pro-Euro as a currency. I think it's very hard, nigh on impossible, to impose specific finance restrictions like that across such a wide range of economies. However I don't believe the City of London should be afforded special protection in this instance, and I think we've taken a massive political and economic gamble to do just that. It may provide short term success as people ride the wave of joy that being seen to 'stick two fingers up' to Europe provides, plus we'll avoid some of the immediate measures that will come into place. But to have muted our voice in Europe to this level has huge long term implications and those really concern me. This isn't the 19th century when we could afford to stand alone, we need to cooperate with our allies, and I think long term this decision won't benefit us.

9th December 2011, 22:28	#5 (permalink)
MikeUpNorth Wobbles like a massive pair of tits Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 13,227	Cameron had no choice given how he'd find it near impossible to push a new European treaty through parliament right now - 81 Conservative MPs defied a three-line government whip last time round. There is also the issue that Holland and Ireland are constitutionally obliged to put new EU treaties to a public referendum, and it seems hard to imagine that Tory MPs wouldn't demand the same and try and turn it into an 'in/out' referendum on the EU. That would obviously rip apart the coalition. And obviously his 'protection of British (read City of London) interests' line has some merit, and the financiers bankroll his party so he has to play by their rules... So no, Cameron wasn't brave, he had no other option. From a wider perspective I think this new EU treaty is a bit of a travesty anyway. Obviously it runs counter to ideals of national sovereignty and democracy by insisting on central EU oversight of national budgets. But the bigger issue is that this is a treaty very much designed by the ruling right-wing parties of Germany and France, and by making 'balanced budgets' mandatory in law it effectively bans the fiscal policies future left-wing governments may want to implement to encourage growth.

9th December 2011, 22:31	#6 (permalink)
mjs020294 First Team Regular Join Date: May 2008 Location: Ex-Pat in Florida Posts: 14,985	Fuck the EU, fuck Germany and god damned FUCK France. Should have told them to take a hike a long time ago. Without the UK supporting the shambles that is the European Union it will fall on its ass....actually it will do that anyway but it will happen far quicker without the Brits subsidizing it.

9th December 2011, 22:46	#8 (permalink)
711 Real Caftard Fantasy Champ 2009 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Would posters please stop listing our own players. We all know who they are and it's driving me fucking mad. Posts: 7,281	Missed a lot with working and that, but three things come to mind: Who will make fiscal decisions in this new fiscal unity? It's either everyone does what the Germans say, or there's some sort of democratic process and Germany gives up control of it's own economy. Really? I don't think the Germans have thought that through. The agreement does nothing to help countries pay off existing debt, which they have to constantly refinance. Cameron would be best having a referendum now, and appearing to be in control of our exit from the EEC, otherwise he will be repeatedly humiliated as the new union lashes it's frustrations out on the uk. He probably thinks his best hope is that the Euro falls soon, and everyone says he was right all along - that won't happen, they'll blame him for not standing with them. er, and a fourth, the libs must be a bit desperate now for a get-out from the coalition, they might see this as that get-out, and then it's election time.

9th December 2011, 22:47	#9 (permalink)
niMic may peace and blessings of God be upon me Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: And I'm all out of bubblegum. Posts: 10,781	Well, the one good thing about this whole mess is that the opposition to the EU has never been stronger in Norway. Twice we've narrowly voted against joining; I don't think we'll have a third anytime soon.

9th December 2011, 23:07	#15 (permalink)
Smores First Team Sub Join Date: May 2011 Location: Dark side of the moon Posts: 6,446	I'm just left dismayed by the fact the cunts going to gain popularity from this, at least until proven wrong anyway. As much as many will cheer sticking the fingers up to euro it's a sad situation overall.

9th December 2011, 23:09	#16 (permalink)
Team Brian GB Baby Cameron loves X-Factor Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 16,051	There was no way we were going to get a deal, the fundamental problem is we are a laissez-faire country in a democratic-socialist bloc, if we give it more and more power then it will only come back to hurt us in the future. How regulation of our financial services has anything to do with Brussels I don't know, it is seventeen countries monetary failure why we are where we are, it has nothing to do with us so we are not going to screw with the square mile as part of fixing the Eurozone's problems so somebody can screw up later on, especially so as Germany is still resisting the ECB from becoming a lender of last resort. Nothing ever surprises me about the French who have always been one-dimensional in their quest for greater power and influence all of the time, it would not surprise me in the least if they are deliberately putting Britain under pressure to force us so much into the periphery that we pull the plug on our participation entirely. There is going to be another treaty at some point, the EU will want something more, who knows what they want but it will certainly be to our ire.

9th December 2011, 23:13	#17 (permalink)
Team Brian GB Baby Cameron loves X-Factor Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 16,051	Now I wonder if they still think a financial transactions tax is a good idea now the UK will most certainly not be a part of it, or will they drop it as instead it will make the UK more desirable to actors in the industry in Paris and Frankfurt thus making London stronger and not weaker.

9th December 2011, 23:33	#21 (permalink)
SteveJ Nicest fella on the Caf and Newbie of the Year 2011 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Divided Kingdom Posts: 11,918	I don't understand the arguments pro and contra-EU; I just regret that it's being dressed-up as the ol' boneheaded Little Englander-style of patriotism. This isn't Dad's Army, and it's not 1939.

9th December 2011, 23:34	#22 (permalink)
rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Corrupting West Brom Posts: 17,197	And they put lots of lovely benches all over the place. I know because they all say "Funded with money from the EU".

9th December 2011, 23:41	#23 (permalink)
Team Brian GB Baby Cameron loves X-Factor Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 16,051	What I always find amusing at these sort of junctures, that when a country says no like the Irish did to the Lisbon Treaty, all those who are supportive of the European Union collectively go mental about how said country is detrimental, is being disruptive, is being dangerous etc. I saw a really ranty segment from the Prime Minister or President of Lithuania on the news a while ago, about how we are holding up Europe for the rest of them, Lithuania? What has this woman got to do with the British PM supporting the UK economy and the regulation of it? You also see at such times what the end game is for these sort of people, that they are not content with Europe as it is, they want to take integration further, and further and further, and when somebody says hold on they go mental.

9th December 2011, 23:46	#26 (permalink)
rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Corrupting West Brom Posts: 17,197	But you can't say the Conservatives don't have their own agenda. Just like how they have constantly ruled out any change in the electoral system (before offering it to us RIP Real Change 2011), they have their own motivations for holding onto power. 99% of people who are against the EU are so for nationalist ideals, which is not exactly helping the argument. Probably 90% pro EU supporters (in the UK) are so because of socialist ideals which doesn't help the argument either. A lot of the concepts are "too complicated for the man on the street", the simple stuff never makes the news.

9th December 2011, 23:46	#27 (permalink)
Team Brian GB Baby Cameron loves X-Factor Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 16,051	When did I say the UK was the biggest contributor and when did I say Germany was a net beneficiary?

9th December 2011, 23:52	#31 (permalink)
SteveJ Nicest fella on the Caf and Newbie of the Year 2011 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Divided Kingdom Posts: 11,918	Dude, where's my country?