We can accept Israel as neighbour, says Hamas

holyland red

Thanks, Giggsy PO.

It's your shift now.

Sultan

It makes sense if you want dialogue, and not dictate.

Sultan

I can't understand the idea that one side does not exist. When it's clear they actually do.

Giggsy PO

How can you negotiate with someone who doesn´t recognize you?

You can have dialogue between partners. How can you not recognize your partner? Good that you mentioned dictate = "negotiation" without recognizing the other side.

Sultan

Partners

Israel and the Palestinians?

Mozza

In the same way that Israel managed to with the PLO and Egypt, it's posturing to insist on recognition before neogtiation

Giggsy PO

Yay, catching me on words? Of course they are not going to marry each other. But the other extreme is to come into negotiations with position that you don´t recognize the other side. Then it is just an usual klatschen tratschen which can be hold every month.

On the other side I wouldn´t "negotiate" a word with Hamas.

Plechazunga

The truth is the situation is probably more fucked than it's ever been. The Israeli political situation is stagnant and in no state to get things moving, the religious nutters have way more political weight than they should in relation to their numbers, and the settlements keep on growing... the Palestinians are violently split, and everyone knows Hamas is fundamentally opposed to a 2-state solution anyway. And meanwhile the Iranians are on the rise, and flexing their muscles all over the place from Iraq to Lebanon, which is probably the real reason the Syrians are pushing this. Or something like that.

Sultan

I guess when it comes to determining terrorism, it's a selective process.

Sultan

Basically the only way is up...

holyland red

Sorry Plech, but to say that the Israeli political situation is stagnant is a bit daft. The last general elections saw for the first time ever a political party other than Labour or Likud in power. Olmert, Livni and other major Likud figures (including Sharon prior to the elections) turned their back on their ideological stance regarding the future of the WB and Gaza. Expressing the Israelis desire to end the conflict, these elected politicians have called time and again for a 2-state solution.
I wish the Palestinians were than stagnant, but they have violently split into two factions, both of which are yet to recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish homeland.
Didn't understand the bit about the Syrians, but it's probably wrong or something like that.

Plechazunga

Probably, it wouldn't be the first time.

But I was under the impression Olmert was a lame duck now and Kadima was moribund. At least, that's what the Israelis at seder the other day were saying....

Giggsy PO

And why did it collapsed? FFS, that offer (which even didn´t have the backing of the Knesset), which Barak made to Arafat in Camp David was the result of what? Why did Arafat refuse it? Because he knew that the acceptance of even a such generous offer would break his neck in favour of the policy presented nowadays by Hamas.

Plechazunga

Let's not start going into the history, then this thread will turn into all the 8 billion other I-P threads, people will start saying "Zionists" a lot, Fearless will turn up in his helicopter gunship, let's not go there.

Mozza

It was not a generous offer, it would have left Palestine with a state akin to Gaza today, Israel would control every aspect of movement into and out of the territories with the right to invade at any point, that is why it was rejected.

Giggsy PO

OK. Let´s back on the topic. You were basically spot on about the fucked up situation. The both sides are so fundamentally opposed that in the near future no agreement is possible.

So it just baffles how some people think "just sit down and negotiate". There is nothing to negotiate and there is nobody to negotiate with. Simple.

Giggsy PO

Sorry, Plech forbid to reply on that.

Plechazunga

Sorry about that.

Sultan

To enable constructive talks the ever increasing construction of settlements by confiscating lands must end, Palestinian institutions in Jerusalem must open, roadblocks that have turned the Palestinian lives not worth living and destroying the economy must be removed, and the policy of arrests and killings must stop.

Release thousands of prisoners, including women and children who are being held without a trial.

Maybe living under a military occupation for decades, people stop recognising others as partners, or neighbours wanting to live in peace.

Respect, and be respected.

Giggsy PO

We all wish world to be would that easy. But given the current state there must be some terrible mistake in your post Sultan.

Plechazunga

Likewise, Hamas could stop bombing them the whole time. Things like the road-blocks aren't there for the sheer fun of it, it's an effort to control the terrorism that's continued for decade after decade. The fact that the withdrawal from Gaza heralded daily rocket attacks on Israeli towns makes them unsurprisingly reluctant to believe that unilateral concessions will lead to peace.

Sultan

I agree.

Palestinians are their worst own enemies. By lobbing rockets over they have lost a lot of good will, without any gain. It's only given the peace detractors more stick to hit the Palestinians.

Mozza

Hamas did stop bombing, they held a ceasefire over a year long, there are other groups within Gaza including ones with close ties to Fatah that kept bombing.

Hamas could carry a peace deal negotiated with Israel which is why Israel won't talk to them, they'd loose more territory that way

Plechazunga

They didn't though. They just didn't claim responsibility.

Probably right

Sultan

There is that.

How long will it take for one of these groups to get hold of better technology, and this to get worse?

It's imparitive, for both parties to let bygones be just that, and get around the table. Life is too short (pun intended).

Mozza

Part of the point of the bombing is to show your people that you are fighting for them, I can't see them not taking responsibility.

holyland red

We've been there before. Stop talking shite- Hamas controlls Gaza and could have prevented rocket launching if it wanted do. In fact they could have wiped the floor with Fatah

What makes you think Hamas would carry a peace deal with Israel when it naver has offered one? Is that also a pre-condition? Insisting on negotiations aimed at striking a peace deal rather than a 10-year-long truce?