We can accept Israel as neighbour, says Hamas

Mozza

It wouldn't last long under Israels current treatment of Gaza

Plechazunga

In that case, why is it worthwhile for the Israelis negotiating with Hamas?

There are plenty of nutters in Israel and the West bank who'd like to go and kill some Arabs whenever they fancied it. If the Israelis allowed this, would you say you don't see why it's their job to stop them?

Plechazunga

Maybe, but Israel's treatment of Gaza can't be taken in isolation, it's a situation in which it's also coming under daily attack. It may be if the attacks stopped, they might relax the pressure a bit.

Probably not though, as the Palestinians have squandered any capital of trust by repeatedly rocketing cities after the withdrawal.

Mozza

I should make that clearer, Hamas will not police the territories for Israel until it gets something in return, why should they make the move otherwise?

holyland red

Because the "resistance", i.e. deliberate rocket-launching at civilians is a war-crime? OK, unsderstanding the international community only blames Israel for war-crimes maybe the incentive would be trying to improve the lives of their people, as Israel is likely to retaliate to those attacks. I thought not...Hamas is not interested in that either.

Mozza

You think there a great deal of trust from the Palestinians towards the Israelis?

Plechazunga

The problem is, if you are a moderate within Hamas - or let's say so as not to get bogged down in terminology, if you are someone in Hamas who wants a negotiated two-state solution... what are you supposed to do, when the Israelis won't come to the table unless one of the central disputes - recognition - has already been conceded before negotiations begin?

And when as long as they don't come to the table, the only fact on the ground that is changing is the continual increase in settlement-building?

Plechazunga

No, but it was the Israelis who made the move of unilateral withdrawal. You know I'm not claiming that was an innocent act of enlightened generosity. But the choice was still there - respond by showing some strategic vision, or launch as many assaults as you can now you have the opportunity.

Mozza

Why should they trust Israel to treat them better when they dismiss the Hamas ceasefire?

Plechazunga

Because there wasn't one.

Frosty

These debates never get old.

Plechazunga

I know, I promised myself I wouldn't get drawn into another one

The whole thing's so depressing

Mozza

Obviously it would have been best for no rockets to have flown after withdrawal but it's not as if Israel had set the Palestinians free to live their lives as they wished

There was

Frosty

One of my friends summed it up quite well I think when he said "if you are not confused about the Israeli-Palestinian situation, you do not understand it"

Plechazunga

No, but there was a change on the ground - from total control and daily oppression to border control, fly-bys, and when hamas got in withholding of money. As opposed to the normal situation, where the only significant change on the ground - ever - is encroachment of settlements. The response to that change on the ground was an act of aggression, which continues to this day pretty much constantly. That plays right into the hands of the status-quoists and greater Israel nutjobs, and considerably weakens those arguing for territorial concessions. It now makes no obvious sense for any Israeli politician to further relax control around Gaza - why would anyone chose to do such a thing? Because it's right?

Brilliant

holyland red

One way would be forming an Al-Kadima party, win the next general election by convincing the Palestinian people that they'd be better off settling for a two-state solution than waiting to see what happens after the nuclear fallout is cleared.

A relevant "fact on the ground" is that when Israel withdraws from territories the settlements are dismantles, and a couple of dozen new homes isn't going to change this.

spinoza

I think the rockets have been falling regularly, ceasefire or not.

spinoza

Then you probably get shot, so the rest after that is pretty hard to do.

Fearless

A good, ignored point.

If the six day war never happened, do you think that the Palestine arabs would have attacked Eygpt and Jordan to get their so called land back????

holyland red

So there is no peace-seeking Palestinian politician then. At least not one that's still alive and can negotiate a peace deal with us then.

Which makes you wonder what this thread is all about, other than wasting our valuable time.

Plechazunga

Or they could all just negotiate with Hamas and see what happens.

But each new home is an extra bargaining-chip, as well you know. Besides, if the process drags on for another 10, 20 + years, it may not be as easy as you imagine getting the meshuggeners out again, as the religious parties increase their power.

(Speaking of which...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/976705.html

Hehehe, the guy's got a point)

holyland red

I think Spin just covered that "what happens" angle

It's pretty clear which areas will be left under Israeli control if/when there's an agreement, regardless of additinal few hundred homes. The Palestinians will get other terrirories in return, so there's little incentive in building for seizing more territory.

He does, which highlights the fact that there are better ways to prove a point than throwing rocks which is what the Haredim have used to do during similar conflicts.
They say the Palestinians have nothing to lose, so maybe instead of launching rockets Khaled Mashaal can simply come to the nearest Gaza border-crossing and get his cock out.

holyland red

I hope Mr. Mashaal's words settle your dispute here:

Mashaal: Truce a 'tactic' in Palestinian struggle

Hamas leader tells al-Jazeera ceasefire with Israel part of 'normal' strategy for 'any resistance'

Associated Press Latest Update: 04.26.08, 23:19 / Israel News

Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said Saturday that the group would accept an Egyptian-proposed ceasefire with Israel but it would be a "tactic" In the group's struggle with the Jewish state.

The Damascus-based Mashaal said in an interview with al-Jazeera television that Egypt had proposed a six-month truce between the Hamas rulers of Gaza and Israel. He said his group was ready to cooperate but added:

"It is a tactic in conducting the struggle. ... It is normal for any resistance that operates in its people's interest ... to sometimes escalate, other times retreat a bit...the battle is to be run this way and Hamas is known for that," he said. "In 2003, there was a cease-fire and then the operations were resumed."

Waiting for Israel's response to truce offer

Earlier Saturday, Mashaal said that Hamas is still waiting for Israel's official response to the group's sixtruce offer. During a press conference in Qatar, Mashaal said he had asked for a written commitment from Israel to open all of Gaza's border crossings, including the one at Rafah.

Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told London's Al-Quds Al-Arabi that if a truce is not reached the region could see unprecedented violence. During the phone interview, Abu Zuhri warned Israel against any attempt to place obstacles in the path of the truce efforts, and said that if the Egyptian efforts fail, "all possibilities will be open to Hamas."

ceasefire with Hamas

I'm particulary impressed with the way Mashaal' honesty is complemented with warnings that Israel HAS to accept the terms of the truce, otherwise...
I sense shit hitting the Gaza fans within 6-8 weeks.

Mozza

So Hamas will hold a truce, glad that arguments settled in my favour then

Melbourne Red

To be honest, we're never going to solve this mess without the immediate intervention of Sean Penn