Israel defies Bush.

7th April 2002, 16:15

In spite of President Bush's demands for the Israeli army to end its offensive, Sharon is determined to continue. A crisis is looming ever closer.

Tareq · 7th April 2002, 16:28

I don't think so, Israel can do whatever she wants,,blocking meetings between Americans & Palestinians,,,,declaring cities as closed military zones, confining a president of the state of Plaestine to his compound. shooting at reporters & journalists.......ect

mathiaslg · 7th April 2002, 16:48

While I understand Israel's right for self-defense, they don't have a blank check to do so, and should pull out immediately. For one, with Powell in the region, it won't do him any good if the Isreaeli's and the Palestinians are fighting it out in the streets (although, even if they do pull out, after the series of actions taken both both sides, I don't know if would help either).

mathiaslg · 7th April 2002, 16:50

I also saw the EU may threaten Israel with sanctions. Interesting that.

mathiaslg · 7th April 2002, 16:53

[quote]Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
I don't think so, Israel can do whatever she wants,,blocking meetings between Americans & Palestinians,,,,declaring cities as closed military zones, confining a president of the state of Plaestine to his compound. shooting at reporters & journalists.......ect<hr></blockquote>

By the way Tareq, did you know your King went to the same boarding schools I did (although he did graduate 19 years before I did in both).

Dans · 7th April 2002, 16:54

I'm sure Tareq already knew that mathias.

mathiaslg · 7th April 2002, 16:55

[quote]Originally posted by Dans:
I'm sure Tareq already knew that mathias.<hr></blockquote>

Well, if he didn't, he should have.

7th April 2002, 16:57

[quote] I also saw the EU may threaten Israel with sanctions. Interesting that. <hr></blockquote>

Doubt it would make a real difference TBH - it's American funding that bankroll's Israel's war machine.

mathiaslg · 7th April 2002, 17:00

Honestly though, he is the head of a sovereign state, and will do what he wants even despite U.S. objections because, in the end, he knows Israel will continue to get money and support from the U.S.

mathiaslg · 7th April 2002, 17:01

[quote]Originally posted by passiveman:


Doubt it would make a real difference TBH - it's American funding that bankroll's Israel's war machine.<hr></blockquote>

I agree, but the issue would revolve more around Europe. Would you put sanctions on the U.S. if we attacked Iraq. I doubt you would...

7th April 2002, 17:09

Is it in the interests of the US to really put an end to this current crisis? Well that's debatable I guess - though I firmly believe it is. However could the visit of Powell be designed to appear to be doing something - as against actually achieving it? Let's face it if the US really wanted to stop Sharon - they could. His defiance of Bush's call for a withdrawal amounts to a raising of the stakes. When Powell visits - we'll see whether or not the US is prepared to call him.

7th April 2002, 17:16

[quote] Would you put sanctions on the U.S. if we attacked Iraq. I doubt you would...
<hr></blockquote>

I doubt it too, in fact Blair is expected to make a speech today decrying Saddam for creating weapons of mass destruction etc.

But that's a red herring Mathias, Europe is supposed to be allied with the US - and Europe is nowhere near as united in it's condemnation of the possibility of military action against Iraq as it is in its condemnation of Sharon's strongarm approach. Furthermore it would be possible to sanction Israel without losing support from the americans - the same could not be said of attempting to use sanctions to deter Bush from his professed determination to unseat Saddam.

mathiaslg · 7th April 2002, 17:32

[quote]Originally posted by passiveman:
Is it in the interests of the US to really put an end to this current crisis? Well that's debatable I guess - though I firmly believe it is. However could the visit of Powell be designed to appear to be doing something - as against actually achieving it? Let's face it if the US really wanted to stop Sharon - they could. His defiance of Bush's call for a withdrawal amounts to a raising of the stakes. When Powell visits - we'll see whether or not the US is prepared to call him.<hr></blockquote>

Is it in the best interest of the Bush Administration to get peace in the Middle East. Honestly, absolutely I would say. First off, for Bush, the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict is deflecting interest (both in the region, and in Europe) from what he wants to really deal with, which is Sadaam and his possible WMD program (which is a threat, no doubt, but dealing with that now would be politically foolish, if not impossible). However, he probably sees this as a golden chance to make his administration look great--for, rather than just concentrating on military campaigns, he is actually attempting to get peace in the region between Israel and the Palestinians, and normalized relations between Israel and its neighbors.

Tareq · 7th April 2002, 19:36

Mathias : I knew about the School thing from a previous thread,,i guess it was on the aftermath of Sept 11th attacks.
I was optimistic whwn i heard that powell is due n the middle east on sunday,,,but after checking his sheduale,,,he won't be n the area that matters till Thursday/ Friday....Is that giving Sharon more time to finish his mission ??

mathiaslg · 7th April 2002, 20:09

[quote]Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
Is that giving Sharon more time to finish his mission ??<hr></blockquote>

Sadly, most likely.

Tareq · 7th April 2002, 21:39

Well, I'd like to congratulate the goverment of Israel, They'v succeeded n planting the seeds of hatred towards her 4 generations to come n the arab world, Israel will never feel like a normal country n the middle east, Israelies will never feel secured whether they r n Israel or abraod...the amount of rage & anger on Israel is unprecedented.

mathiaslg · 7th April 2002, 21:40

[quote]Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
Well, I'd like to congratulate the goverment of Israel, They'v succeeded n planting the seeds of hatred towards her 4 generations to come n the arab world, Israel will never feel like a normal country n the middle east, Israelies will never feel secured whether they r n Israel or abraod...the amount of rage & anger on Israel is unprecedented.<hr></blockquote>

I imagine it will work both ways.

Tareq · 7th April 2002, 22:04

everything works both ways, But who got the capacity to cary on.
Just heard that they'v asked the residents of Genien refugee camp to evacuate their homes, coz they r going to shell the camp with fighter jets........another creative soluation coming from the heroec army who couldn't get hold of Genien refugees camp after nearly a week of siege & boomings.

Tareq · 8th April 2002, 15:01

F Sharon is not welling to listen to Bush,,, To Whom he will ???

Raoul · 8th April 2002, 15:47

The chest pouding about attacking Iraq resumed this weekend when Blair visited Bush's ranch for a meeting.

AhmedDimwitson · 8th April 2002, 16:13

[quote]Originally posted by passiveman:


Doubt it would make a real difference TBH - it's American funding that bankroll's Israel's war machine.<hr></blockquote>

Hmmm, don't know about this. Would be interesting to see figures on Israeli trade. I'd bet that their biggest trading partner is the EU, base this assumtion on the short distance. To the US it takes ages by boat and with flight cargo the price is higher, the EU is the closest market hence probably the biggest one for them. Nut what kind of industry does Israel have? onlything Israeli I think I've bought are oranges.

Anyways, will try to find figures that show the ratio.

Raoul · 8th April 2002, 16:31

Sharon has really gone too far now. Bulldozing peoples homes, preventing the press from covering the incursion etc.

JSV · 8th April 2002, 16:32

Good to see a yank with balanced views...

Raoul · 8th April 2002, 16:34

I supported Israel's right to wipe out the factions that are behind the the suicide bombings, but Sharon seems to be a bit of an ethnic cleanser himself. I don't think the region will see peace anytime soon with him in charge of Israel. I hope we (the US) drop military funding to Israel for this.

JSV · 8th April 2002, 16:38

TBH, I don't think any sane person was opposed to the ending of the suicide bombings (and there perpetrators) however Sharon at the moment (and prior to the latest uprising) has and will remain the single biggest obstacle to peace... yes, even more so than the senile Arafat...

Raoul · 8th April 2002, 16:44

[quote]Originally posted by JSV:
TBH, I don't think any sane person was opposed to the ending of the suicide bombings (and there perpetrators) however Sharon at the moment (and prior to the latest uprising) has and will remain the single biggest obstacle to peace... yes, even more so than the senile Arafat...<hr></blockquote>

The fat russian is losing credibility by the second.

Raoul · 8th April 2002, 16:48

BTW, has anyone noticed the size of the demonstrations against the incursion ? There must've been thousands of pro-palastinian protesters in New York over the weekend.

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 16:49

[quote]Originally posted by JSV:
Good to see a yank with balanced views...

<hr></blockquote>

Christ, haven't I been saying what Raoul did for a while now

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 16:51

[quote]Originally posted by JSV:
TBH, I don't think any sane person was opposed to the ending of the suicide bombings (and there perpetrators) however Sharon at the moment (and prior to the latest uprising) has and will remain the single biggest obstacle to peace... yes, even more so than the senile Arafat...<hr></blockquote>

I would disagree. Sharon is a new found tough-guy, while Arafat is the same old stubborn bastard. It will be equally tough.

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 16:52

[quote]Originally posted by JSV:
Good to see a yank with balanced views...

<hr></blockquote>

Sadly though, by balanced you don't mean unbiased, you just mean in agreement with you.

JSV · 8th April 2002, 16:53

[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg:


Sadly though, by balanced you don't mean unbiased, you just mean in agreement with you.<hr></blockquote>

And the rest of the world...

JSV · 8th April 2002, 16:55

[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg:


Christ, haven't I been saying what Raoul did for a while now

<hr></blockquote>

I dodn't think I mentioned you anywhere in my post...

Easy on the paranoia...

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 16:55

[quote]Originally posted by Raoul:
BTW, has anyone noticed the size of the demonstrations against the incursion ? There must've been thousands of pro-palastinian protesters in New York over the weekend.<hr></blockquote>

What was the size of the pro-Israeli march in Paris the other day. I also read this thing from an Italian Leftist writer who stated were it not for some left-wing extremists, the marches would have been even bigger.

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 16:56

[quote]Originally posted by JSV:


I dodn't think I mentioned you anywhere in my post...

Easy on the paranoia...<hr></blockquote>

No need for paranoia, I know quite well who the post was implied about.

7th April 2002, 16:15	#1 (permalink)
passiveman Posts: n/a	Israel defies Bush. In spite of President Bush's demands for the Israeli army to end its offensive, Sharon is determined to continue. A crisis is looming ever closer. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1915000/1915793.stm" target="_blank">BBC</a>

7th April 2002, 16:53	#5 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by tareq abd albari: <strong>I don't think so, Israel can do whatever she wants,,blocking meetings between Americans & Palestinians,,,,declaring cities as closed military zones, confining a president of the state of Plaestine to his compound. shooting at reporters & journalists.......ect</strong><hr></blockquote> By the way Tareq, did you know your King went to the same boarding schools I did (although he did graduate 19 years before I did in both).

7th April 2002, 16:55	#7 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by Dans: <strong>I'm sure Tareq already knew that mathias.</strong><hr></blockquote> Well, if he didn't, he should have.

7th April 2002, 17:01	#10 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by passiveman: <strong> Doubt it would make a real difference TBH - it's American funding that bankroll's Israel's war machine.</strong><hr></blockquote> I agree, but the issue would revolve more around Europe. Would you put sanctions on the U.S. if we attacked Iraq. I doubt you would...

7th April 2002, 17:32	#13 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by passiveman: <strong>Is it in the interests of the US to really put an end to this current crisis? Well that's debatable I guess - though I firmly believe it is. However could the visit of Powell be designed to appear to be doing something - as against actually achieving it? Let's face it if the US really wanted to stop Sharon - they could. His defiance of Bush's call for a withdrawal amounts to a raising of the stakes. When Powell visits - we'll see whether or not the US is prepared to call him.</strong><hr></blockquote> Is it in the best interest of the Bush Administration to get peace in the Middle East. Honestly, absolutely I would say. First off, for Bush, the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict is deflecting interest (both in the region, and in Europe) from what he wants to really deal with, which is Sadaam and his possible WMD program (which is a threat, no doubt, but dealing with that now would be politically foolish, if not impossible). However, he probably sees this as a golden chance to make his administration look great--for, rather than just concentrating on military campaigns, he is actually attempting to get peace in the region between Israel and the Palestinians, and normalized relations between Israel and its neighbors.

7th April 2002, 16:28	#2 (permalink)
Tareq Livvie's Favourite Jordanian. Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Amman - Jordan Posts: 2,789	I don't think so, Israel can do whatever she wants,,blocking meetings between Americans & Palestinians,,,,declaring cities as closed military zones, confining a president of the state of Plaestine to his compound. shooting at reporters & journalists.......ect

7th April 2002, 16:48	#3 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	While I understand Israel's right for self-defense, they don't have a blank check to do so, and should pull out immediately. For one, with Powell in the region, it won't do him any good if the Isreaeli's and the Palestinians are fighting it out in the streets (although, even if they do pull out, after the series of actions taken both both sides, I don't know if would help either).

7th April 2002, 16:50	#4 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	I also saw the EU may threaten Israel with sanctions. Interesting that.

7th April 2002, 16:54	#6 (permalink)
Dans First Team Elder Join Date: Jun 2001 Posts: 19,657	I'm sure Tareq already knew that mathias.

7th April 2002, 16:57	#8 (permalink)
passiveman Posts: n/a	[quote] I also saw the EU may threaten Israel with sanctions. Interesting that. <hr></blockquote> Doubt it would make a real difference TBH - it's American funding that bankroll's Israel's war machine.

7th April 2002, 17:00	#9 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	Honestly though, he is the head of a sovereign state, and will do what he wants even despite U.S. objections because, in the end, he knows Israel will continue to get money and support from the U.S.

7th April 2002, 17:09	#11 (permalink)
passiveman Posts: n/a	Is it in the interests of the US to really put an end to this current crisis? Well that's debatable I guess - though I firmly believe it is. However could the visit of Powell be designed to appear to be doing something - as against actually achieving it? Let's face it if the US really wanted to stop Sharon - they could. His defiance of Bush's call for a withdrawal amounts to a raising of the stakes. When Powell visits - we'll see whether or not the US is prepared to call him.

7th April 2002, 17:16	#12 (permalink)
passiveman Posts: n/a	[quote] Would you put sanctions on the U.S. if we attacked Iraq. I doubt you would... <hr></blockquote> I doubt it too, in fact Blair is expected to make a speech today decrying Saddam for creating weapons of mass destruction etc. But that's a red herring Mathias, Europe is supposed to be allied with the US - and Europe is nowhere near as united in it's condemnation of the possibility of military action against Iraq as it is in its condemnation of Sharon's strongarm approach. Furthermore it would be possible to sanction Israel without losing support from the americans - the same could not be said of attempting to use sanctions to deter Bush from his professed determination to unseat Saddam.

7th April 2002, 19:36	#14 (permalink)
Tareq Livvie's Favourite Jordanian. Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Amman - Jordan Posts: 2,789	Mathias : I knew about the School thing from a previous thread,,i guess it was on the aftermath of Sept 11th attacks. I was optimistic whwn i heard that powell is due n the middle east on sunday,,,but after checking his sheduale,,,he won't be n the area that matters till Thursday/ Friday....Is that giving Sharon more time to finish his mission ??

7th April 2002, 20:09	#15 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by tareq abd albari: <strong>Is that giving Sharon more time to finish his mission ??</strong><hr></blockquote> Sadly, most likely.

7th April 2002, 21:39	#16 (permalink)
Tareq Livvie's Favourite Jordanian. Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Amman - Jordan Posts: 2,789	Well, I'd like to congratulate the goverment of Israel, They'v succeeded n planting the seeds of hatred towards her 4 generations to come n the arab world, Israel will never feel like a normal country n the middle east, Israelies will never feel secured whether they r n Israel or abraod...the amount of rage & anger on Israel is unprecedented.

7th April 2002, 21:40	#17 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by tareq abd albari: <strong>Well, I'd like to congratulate the goverment of Israel, They'v succeeded n planting the seeds of hatred towards her 4 generations to come n the arab world, Israel will never feel like a normal country n the middle east, Israelies will never feel secured whether they r n Israel or abraod...the amount of rage & anger on Israel is unprecedented.</strong><hr></blockquote> I imagine it will work both ways.

7th April 2002, 22:04	#18 (permalink)
Tareq Livvie's Favourite Jordanian. Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Amman - Jordan Posts: 2,789	everything works both ways, But who got the capacity to cary on. Just heard that they'v asked the residents of Genien refugee camp to evacuate their homes, coz they r going to shell the camp with fighter jets........another creative soluation coming from the heroec army who couldn't get hold of Genien refugees camp after nearly a week of siege & boomings.

8th April 2002, 15:01	#19 (permalink)
Tareq Livvie's Favourite Jordanian. Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Amman - Jordan Posts: 2,789	F Sharon is not welling to listen to Bush,,, To Whom he will ???

8th April 2002, 15:47	#20 (permalink)
Raoul Revolutionizer Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Baghdad Posts: 26,407	The chest pouding about attacking Iraq resumed this weekend when Blair visited Bush's ranch for a meeting.

8th April 2002, 16:13	#21 (permalink)
AhmedDimwitson The Expert Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: FI Posts: 5,117	[quote]Originally posted by passiveman: <strong> Doubt it would make a real difference TBH - it's American funding that bankroll's Israel's war machine.</strong><hr></blockquote> Hmmm, don't know about this. Would be interesting to see figures on Israeli trade. I'd bet that their biggest trading partner is the EU, base this assumtion on the short distance. To the US it takes ages by boat and with flight cargo the price is higher, the EU is the closest market hence probably the biggest one for them. Nut what kind of industry does Israel have? onlything Israeli I think I've bought are oranges. Anyways, will try to find figures that show the ratio.

8th April 2002, 16:31	#22 (permalink)
Raoul Revolutionizer Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Baghdad Posts: 26,407	Sharon has really gone too far now. Bulldozing peoples homes, preventing the press from covering the incursion etc.

8th April 2002, 16:32	#23 (permalink)
JSV woman-hating-mans-man(or sexist tw*t if you'd prefer) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Manchester Posts: 8,354	Good to see a yank with balanced views...

8th April 2002, 16:34	#24 (permalink)
Raoul Revolutionizer Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Baghdad Posts: 26,407	I supported Israel's right to wipe out the factions that are behind the the suicide bombings, but Sharon seems to be a bit of an ethnic cleanser himself. I don't think the region will see peace anytime soon with him in charge of Israel. I hope we (the US) drop military funding to Israel for this.

8th April 2002, 16:38	#25 (permalink)
JSV woman-hating-mans-man(or sexist tw*t if you'd prefer) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Manchester Posts: 8,354	TBH, I don't think any sane person was opposed to the ending of the suicide bombings (and there perpetrators) however Sharon at the moment (and prior to the latest uprising) has and will remain the single biggest obstacle to peace... yes, even more so than the senile Arafat...

8th April 2002, 16:44	#26 (permalink)
Raoul Revolutionizer Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Baghdad Posts: 26,407	[quote]Originally posted by JSV: <strong>TBH, I don't think any sane person was opposed to the ending of the suicide bombings (and there perpetrators) however Sharon at the moment (and prior to the latest uprising) has and will remain the single biggest obstacle to peace... yes, even more so than the senile Arafat...</strong><hr></blockquote> The fat russian is losing credibility by the second.

8th April 2002, 16:48	#27 (permalink)
Raoul Revolutionizer Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Baghdad Posts: 26,407	BTW, has anyone noticed the size of the demonstrations against the incursion ? There must've been thousands of pro-palastinian protesters in New York over the weekend.

8th April 2002, 16:49	#28 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by JSV: <strong>Good to see a yank with balanced views... </strong><hr></blockquote> Christ, haven't I been saying what Raoul did for a while now

8th April 2002, 16:51	#29 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by JSV: <strong>TBH, I don't think any sane person was opposed to the ending of the suicide bombings (and there perpetrators) however Sharon at the moment (and prior to the latest uprising) has and will remain the single biggest obstacle to peace... yes, even more so than the senile Arafat...</strong><hr></blockquote> I would disagree. Sharon is a new found tough-guy, while Arafat is the same old stubborn bastard. It will be equally tough.

8th April 2002, 16:52	#30 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by JSV: <strong>Good to see a yank with balanced views... </strong><hr></blockquote> Sadly though, by balanced you don't mean unbiased, you just mean in agreement with you.

8th April 2002, 16:53	#31 (permalink)
JSV woman-hating-mans-man(or sexist tw*t if you'd prefer) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Manchester Posts: 8,354	[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg: <strong> Sadly though, by balanced you don't mean unbiased, you just mean in agreement with you.</strong><hr></blockquote> And the rest of the world...

8th April 2002, 16:55	#32 (permalink)
JSV woman-hating-mans-man(or sexist tw*t if you'd prefer) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Manchester Posts: 8,354	[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg: <strong> Christ, haven't I been saying what Raoul did for a while now </strong><hr></blockquote> I dodn't think I mentioned you anywhere in my post... Easy on the paranoia...

8th April 2002, 16:55	#33 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by Raoul: <strong>BTW, has anyone noticed the size of the demonstrations against the incursion ? There must've been thousands of pro-palastinian protesters in New York over the weekend.</strong><hr></blockquote> What was the size of the pro-Israeli march in Paris the other day. I also read this thing from an Italian Leftist writer who stated were it not for some left-wing extremists, the marches would have been even bigger.

8th April 2002, 16:56	#34 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by JSV: <strong> I dodn't think I mentioned you anywhere in my post... Easy on the paranoia...</strong><hr></blockquote> No need for paranoia, I know quite well who the post was implied about.

8th April 2002, 16:58	#35 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA