Israel defies Bush.

AhmedDimwitson · 8th April 2002, 17:05

[quote]Originally posted by AhmedDimwitson:


Hmmm, don't know about this. Would be interesting to see figures on Israeli trade. I'd bet that their biggest trading partner is the EU, base this assumtion on the short distance. To the US it takes ages by boat and with flight cargo the price is higher, the EU is the closest market hence probably the biggest one for them. Nut what kind of industry does Israel have? onlything Israeli I think I've bought are oranges.

Anyways, will try to find figures that show the ratio.<hr></blockquote>

Exports - partners: US 36%, UK 6%, Benelux 5%, Hong Kong 4%, Netherlands 4% (1999)

Imports - partners: US 20%, Benelux 11%, Germany 8%, UK 8%, Switzerland 6%, Italy 5% (1999

"Israel usually posts sizable current account deficits, which are covered by large transfer payments from abroad and by foreign loans. Roughly half of the government's external debt is owed to the US"

source: <a href="http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html</a>

Conclusion: EU economic sanctions would have a substantial effect.

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 17:05

[quote]Originally posted by JSV:
90,000 expected to march in London this Saturday...<hr></blockquote>

Really, I went through a big Palestinian march the other day. I did get a laugh though, so true to traditional ways, women were at the rear.

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 17:08

[quote]Originally posted by JSV:
90,000 expected to march in London this Saturday...<hr></blockquote>

I wouldn't be surprised. I have heard higher estimates that that.

JSV · 8th April 2002, 17:08

[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg:


The Paris March turned into a big combo of both actually. Perhaps there should just be a general huge march against both Israel's and the Palestinian's appaling human rights record (or do you think only Israel is guilty in such respects?)<hr></blockquote>

Not at all...

The suicide bombers and anyone supporting them needed to stop, I mean it...

But the current method Sharon is using is very very wrong and will serve no purpose but to inflame the situation e.g. an Israeli sniper shooting a 50 year old woman attempting to get to hospital, the palestinian man putting out the fire in the church of the nativity getting shot...

I'd say the best way would be for Sharon to completely pull out of Palestinian areas, immediately stop illegal settlement building (which he hasn't done since he took power) and get round the negotiation table and seriously talk about an agreement...

The man is a butcher and was found to be 'personally responsible' for the Sabra and Chatila massacre of over 1700 civilians by an Israeli investigtion... He needs to be restrained, quickly...

JSV · 8th April 2002, 17:10

[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg:


Really, I went through a big Palestinian march the other day. I did get a laugh though, so true to traditional ways, women were at the rear.<hr></blockquote>

OMG, so you're now having digs at Islam...

What has that got to do with the issue in hand???

Try and stick to the subject...

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 17:10

[quote]Originally posted by Raoul:


Could be, though a majority of the world seem to support an immediate withdrawl from the West Bank. I was surprised at the size of the demonstrations in NY.<hr></blockquote>

What was the size, I heard around 16,000.

Raoul · 8th April 2002, 17:11

[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg:


What was the size, I heard around 16,000.<hr></blockquote>

Not sure, though anything over 500 would be impressive for the US imo.

Amir · 8th April 2002, 17:13

All the leaders (or the people on this forum) who have bright ideas for Israel: Come to Israel, leave your secutiry guards at home, and tour Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa and Netanya.

Once you've done that (and lived as well), we'll pull out of the Palestenian territory.

We've gone there for one reason and one reason only: To destroy the terror chain. No matter how time it takes... it must be done. It will be done (hopefully), but my-not-so-favourite prime minister Sharon should not give up on his people's safety because the world doesn't like it.

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 17:13

[quote]Originally posted by JSV:


Not at all...

The suicide bombers and anyone supporting them needed to stop, I mean it...

But the current method Sharon is using is very very wrong and will serve no purpose but to inflame the situation e.g. an Israeli sniper shooting a 50 year old woman attempting to get to hospital, the palestinian man putting out the fire in the church of the nativity getting shot...

I'd say the best way would be for Sharon to completely pull out of Palestinian areas, immediately stop illegal settlement building (which he hasn't done since he took power) and get round the negotiation table and seriously talk about an agreement...

The man is a butcher and was found to be 'personally responsible' for the Sabra and Chatila massacre of over 1700 civilians by an Israeli investigtion... He needs to be restrained, quickly...<hr></blockquote>

He is a thug, no doubt. However, I think both need to be restrained, for Arafat's Authority executes people without trial as well, orders suicide bombers etc... However, we have to work with both, and as I have said, to do so, you can't do it when they are (in reality) in the midst of a combat situation/.

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 17:14

[quote]Originally posted by JSV:


OMG, so you're now having digs at Islam...
<hr></blockquote>

Just stating a fact.

JSV · 8th April 2002, 17:17

[quote]Originally posted by Amir:
All the leaders (or the people on this forum) who have bright ideas for Israel: Come to Israel, leave your secutiry guards at home, and tour Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa and Netanya.

Once you've done that (and lived as well), we'll pull out of the Palestenian territory.

We've gone there for one reason and one reason only: To destroy the terror chain. No matter how time it takes... it must be done. It will be done (hopefully), but my-not-so-favourite prime minister Sharon should not give up on his people's safety because the world doesn't like it.<hr></blockquote>

Surely killing other inncocent civilians will have no effect on the safety of your own, in fact it would simply cause an increase in the attacks...

JSV · 8th April 2002, 17:19

[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg:


He is a thug, no doubt. However, I think both need to be restrained, for Arafat's Authority executes people without trial as well, orders suicide bombers etc... However, we have to work with both, and as I have said, to do so, you can't do it when they are (in reality) in the midst of a combat situation/.<hr></blockquote>

I think Arafat could be restrained... I mean he is now isn't he? Why the need for the killing of so many people? What is happening is not combat... It is illegal immoral oppression and it has to stop...

Roy · 8th April 2002, 17:21

[quote]Originally posted by Amir:
All the leaders (or the people on this forum) who have bright ideas for Israel: Come to Israel, leave your secutiry guards at home, and tour Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa and Netanya.

Once you've done that (and lived as well), we'll pull out of the Palestenian territory.

We've gone there for one reason and one reason only: To destroy the terror chain. No matter how time it takes... it must be done. It will be done (hopefully), but my-not-so-favourite prime minister Sharon should not give up on his people's safety because the world doesn't like it.<hr></blockquote>

Well said mate. I don't want to get involved in this discussion mainly because that's what we talk about all day here in Israel and I've had about enough of it but I'll say one thing, you know absolutely FUCK ALL about what goes on here. When you've actually been to the place, lived there and suffered the way we suffer then your opinion would be valid. Right now, it's a load of crap. Sorry but that's how I see it from this shit-hole.

Amir · 8th April 2002, 17:25

[quote]Originally posted by JSV:


Surely killing other inncocent civilians will have no effect on the safety of your own, in fact it would simply cause an increase in the attacks...<hr></blockquote>

We don't kill any innocent civilians for fun, unfortunately the terrorists who we are after aren't very picky, they hide whereever they find and they don't care who gets hurt. Yes, innocent palestenians do get hurt, unfortunately, but you can understand that from my point of view, better them then me!

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 17:31

I am only continuing this debate just to see if Senior JSV is actually willing to admit both sides, have had times acted in "appaling human rights" violations. Or something to that effect. I have never heard him criticize Arafat or his Authority, only vague critcism of the suicide bombers.

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 17:35

I am actually reading this article in the Wall Street Journal Europe talking about the European left and whether or not it is "spurring" anti-semitism.

AhmedDimwitson · 8th April 2002, 17:42

[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg:
I am actually reading this article in the Wall Street Journal Europe talking about the European left and whether or not it is "spurring" anti-semitism.<hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> what the feck, since when has a european political party been able to spur anything? in the 30s was it? The reason you see these demonstrations is because there are so many muslim immigrants everywhere. It's no coincidence that the economy in those countries never develops, as even here they can spend weekdays protesting instead of working. Western welfare gives this opportunity.

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 18:00

[quote]Originally posted by AhmedDimwitson:


<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> what the feck, since when has a european political party been able to spur anything? in the 30s was it? The reason you see these demonstrations is because there are so many muslim immigrants everywhere. It's no coincidence that the economy in those countries never develops, as even here they can spend weekdays protesting instead of working. Western welfare gives this opportunity.

<hr></blockquote>

The article is more funny that fact based. I am getting a kick out of it.

8th April 2002, 18:21

[quote] what the feck, since when has a european political party been able to spur anything? in the 30s was it? The reason you see these demonstrations is because there are so many muslim immigrants everywhere. It's no coincidence that the economy in those countries never develops, as even here they can spend weekdays protesting instead of working. Western welfare gives this opportunity.

<hr></blockquote>Eh? Is the thrust of this response to imply that Western economies are suffering in terms of growth because of their commitment to provide for those without work?

Perhaps it is designed to suggest that the only people who don't work are Muslim immigrants, who are therefore directly culpable for any difficulties the Western economies are suffering from...

Or was it your intention to belittle the legitimacy of the anti-Israeli protests by implying that no Westerners are involved?

8th April 2002, 18:22

No, of course your point was to highlight the fact that there are so many Muslim immigrants in the West - the Palestinian diaspora generated by the creation of the state Israel won't have helped this too much...

I'm still confused - you seem unhappy that European political parties are totally without influence in the fight to spur anti-semitism???

Some clarification of that extremely odd post would be appreciated.

8th April 2002, 18:28

I found the posters (placards) some protestors were carrying blacky humourous - likening Sharon to Hitler, It's kind of ironic.

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 18:46

[quote]Originally posted by Mancunian Candidate:
I found the posters (placards) some protestors were carrying blacky humourous - likening Sharon to Hitler, It's kind of ironic.<hr></blockquote>

Its kind of foolish.

Roy · 8th April 2002, 18:47

[quote]Originally posted by Mancunian Candidate:
I found the posters (placards) some protestors were carrying blacky humourous - likening Sharon to Hitler, It's kind of ironic.<hr></blockquote>

No, it's not. Try stupid.

8th April 2002, 18:52

[quote]Originally posted by Roy:


No, it's not. Try stupid.<hr></blockquote>

Well, so is killing one another. Things like this are bound to happen. Obviously certain facets of the Palestinian people feel they are being treated like animals. Bulldozing homes and running them from their land into refugee camps isn't exactly going to leave them with a good impression. Remember, alot of these people lack the basic education that you and I have in order to make this type of judgement.

Stupid or whatever, it's ironic that the victimised are now being portrayed as the aggressors.

Roy · 8th April 2002, 19:10

[quote]Originally posted by Mancunian Candidate:


Well, so is killing one another. Things like this are bound to happen. Obviously certain facets of the Palestinian people feel they are being treated like animals. Bulldozing homes and running them from their land into refugee camps isn't exactly going to leave them with a good impression. Remember, alot of these people lack the basic education that you and I have in order to make this type of judgement.

Stupid or whatever, it's ironic that the victimised are now being portrayed as the aggressors.<hr></blockquote>

Treated like animals or not (I think they are treated badly, but animals is an exaggeration), Israel does what it has to do in order to protect its citizens, the way every other sovereign country would do. Secondly, the Palestinians have brought everything on themselves and have no one else to blame for their poor condition (apart from their leadership). Also, any comparisons with the Nazis or Hitler or whatever is just ludicrous as the Jews in Europe never attacked other civilians, nor have they exploded buses, cafes and restaurants.

I don't find the fact that we're currently fighting someone to be quite so ironic. I think we are fighting for what "we" have always fought for, i.e to live in peace in a country of our own.

AhmedDimwitson · 8th April 2002, 19:10

[quote]Originally posted by passiveman:
Eh? Is the thrust of this response to imply that Western economies are suffering in terms of growth because of their commitment to provide for those without work?

Perhaps it is designed to suggest that the only people who don't work are Muslim immigrants, who are therefore directly culpable for any difficulties the Western economies are suffering from...

Or was it your intention to belittle the legitimacy of the anti-Israeli protests by implying that no Westerners are involved?<hr></blockquote>

Well, the westerners involved are the unemployed communists who have nothing better to do than protest. Like Gothenburg last year when these destroyed a city, these communists were interviewed and asked what they were angry at, they didn't know, they were protesting against everything. These protests get legitimacy when working people like myself get involved and not this professional protestors who are everywhere and who no-one listens to.

You have to wonder what the muslim community are thinking, muslims from Indonesia to Marocco are spending the entire day protesting and burning flags, the next thing their government do is hand in a request for money to the world bank and wonder why the hell their country ain't producing anything.

The answer to their problem is that you use the resources you have and make it work, like in real life. You have the choice to educate yourself and get a decent job or be unemployed living on welfare ultimatelly provided by those who work. And there is something fundamentally wrong with society when we are importing unemployed people who do not even try to intgrate. Take Finland as an example of success, in the 50s they had a huge debt to pay to Sovjet, they payed it and gradually they have developed their economy from scratch to being voted most competitive in the world. All through hard work and usage of the limited resources available. These underdeveloped countries could follow the same example if they would do some work. But it's ultimately a cultural thing and it won't happen.

So in short in my previous post I did indeed question the legitimacy of the protests and necessarity of them.

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 19:15

You kidding, those Muslim gov'ts are basically doing the same thing as their people. While their uneducated masses chear on Arafat, and burn American or Israeli flags, their leaders are too busy stating what Israel is doing is terrorism while ignoring what the Palestinians are doing.

8th April 2002, 19:17

Both sides are fucked. One big bomb in the middle of Jersalem is all that will solve it, or so it seems.

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 19:17

[quote]Originally posted by AhmedDimwitson:


But it's ultimately a cultural thing and it won't happen.
<hr></blockquote>

I agree, and it kind of ironic, going from the most advanced civilization to being the most backwards.

mathiaslg · 8th April 2002, 19:18

[quote]Originally posted by Mancunian Candidate:
Both sides are fucked. One big bomb in the middle of Jersalem is all that will solve it, or so it seems.<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, that would solve it

8th April 2002, 19:19

[quote] muslims from Indonesia to Marocco are spending the entire day protesting and burning flags <hr></blockquote>

That's a good example of an unhelpful generalisation - I don't make generic assumptions about jews - you could do well to understand that muslims vary as much in their opinions and relative beliefs as Christians.

8th April 2002, 19:21

[quote] Well, the westerners involved are the unemployed communists who have nothing better to do than protest <hr></blockquote>

Are you personally acquainted with these people?

8th April 2002, 17:05	#41 (permalink)
AhmedDimwitson The Expert Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: FI Posts: 5,104	[quote]Originally posted by AhmedDimwitson: <strong> Hmmm, don't know about this. Would be interesting to see figures on Israeli trade. I'd bet that their biggest trading partner is the EU, base this assumtion on the short distance. To the US it takes ages by boat and with flight cargo the price is higher, the EU is the closest market hence probably the biggest one for them. Nut what kind of industry does Israel have? onlything Israeli I think I've bought are oranges. Anyways, will try to find figures that show the ratio.</strong><hr></blockquote> Exports - partners: US 36%, UK 6%, Benelux 5%, Hong Kong 4%, Netherlands 4% (1999) Imports - partners: US 20%, Benelux 11%, Germany 8%, UK 8%, Switzerland 6%, Italy 5% (1999 "Israel usually posts sizable current account deficits, which are covered by large transfer payments from abroad and by foreign loans. Roughly half of the government's external debt is owed to the US" source: <a href="http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html</a> Conclusion: EU economic sanctions would have a substantial effect.

8th April 2002, 17:05	#42 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by JSV: <strong>90,000 expected to march in London this Saturday...</strong><hr></blockquote> Really, I went through a big Palestinian march the other day. I did get a laugh though, so true to traditional ways, women were at the rear.

8th April 2002, 17:08	#43 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by JSV: <strong>90,000 expected to march in London this Saturday...</strong><hr></blockquote> I wouldn't be surprised. I have heard higher estimates that that.

8th April 2002, 17:08	#44 (permalink)
JSV woman-hating-mans-man(or sexist tw*t if you'd prefer) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Manchester Posts: 8,354	[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg: <strong> The Paris March turned into a big combo of both actually. Perhaps there should just be a general huge march against both Israel's and the Palestinian's appaling human rights record (or do you think only Israel is guilty in such respects?)</strong><hr></blockquote> Not at all... The suicide bombers and anyone supporting them needed to stop, I mean it... But the current method Sharon is using is very very wrong and will serve no purpose but to inflame the situation e.g. an Israeli sniper shooting a 50 year old woman attempting to get to hospital, the palestinian man putting out the fire in the church of the nativity getting shot... I'd say the best way would be for Sharon to completely pull out of Palestinian areas, immediately stop illegal settlement building (which he hasn't done since he took power) and get round the negotiation table and seriously talk about an agreement... The man is a butcher and was found to be 'personally responsible' for the Sabra and Chatila massacre of over 1700 civilians by an Israeli investigtion... He needs to be restrained, quickly...

8th April 2002, 17:10	#45 (permalink)
JSV woman-hating-mans-man(or sexist tw*t if you'd prefer) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Manchester Posts: 8,354	[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg: <strong> Really, I went through a big Palestinian march the other day. I did get a laugh though, so true to traditional ways, women were at the rear.</strong><hr></blockquote> OMG, so you're now having digs at Islam... What has that got to do with the issue in hand??? Try and stick to the subject...

8th April 2002, 17:10	#46 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by Raoul: <strong> Could be, though a majority of the world seem to support an immediate withdrawl from the West Bank. I was surprised at the size of the demonstrations in NY.</strong><hr></blockquote> What was the size, I heard around 16,000.

8th April 2002, 17:11	#47 (permalink)
Raoul Revolutionizer Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: Baghdad Posts: 26,408	[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg: <strong> What was the size, I heard around 16,000.</strong><hr></blockquote> Not sure, though anything over 500 would be impressive for the US imo.

8th April 2002, 17:13	#48 (permalink)
Amir First Team Sub Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Rehovot, Israel Posts: 9,945	All the leaders (or the people on this forum) who have bright ideas for Israel: Come to Israel, leave your secutiry guards at home, and tour Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa and Netanya. Once you've done that (and lived as well), we'll pull out of the Palestenian territory. We've gone there for one reason and one reason only: To destroy the terror chain. No matter how time it takes... it must be done. It will be done (hopefully), but my-not-so-favourite prime minister Sharon should not give up on his people's safety because the world doesn't like it.

8th April 2002, 17:13	#49 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by JSV: <strong> Not at all... The suicide bombers and anyone supporting them needed to stop, I mean it... But the current method Sharon is using is very very wrong and will serve no purpose but to inflame the situation e.g. an Israeli sniper shooting a 50 year old woman attempting to get to hospital, the palestinian man putting out the fire in the church of the nativity getting shot... I'd say the best way would be for Sharon to completely pull out of Palestinian areas, immediately stop illegal settlement building (which he hasn't done since he took power) and get round the negotiation table and seriously talk about an agreement... The man is a butcher and was found to be 'personally responsible' for the Sabra and Chatila massacre of over 1700 civilians by an Israeli investigtion... He needs to be restrained, quickly...</strong><hr></blockquote> He is a thug, no doubt. However, I think both need to be restrained, for Arafat's Authority executes people without trial as well, orders suicide bombers etc... However, we have to work with both, and as I have said, to do so, you can't do it when they are (in reality) in the midst of a combat situation/.

8th April 2002, 17:14	#50 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by JSV: <strong> OMG, so you're now having digs at Islam... </strong><hr></blockquote> Just stating a fact.

8th April 2002, 17:17	#51 (permalink)
JSV woman-hating-mans-man(or sexist tw*t if you'd prefer) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Manchester Posts: 8,354	[quote]Originally posted by Amir: <strong>All the leaders (or the people on this forum) who have bright ideas for Israel: Come to Israel, leave your secutiry guards at home, and tour Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa and Netanya. Once you've done that (and lived as well), we'll pull out of the Palestenian territory. We've gone there for one reason and one reason only: To destroy the terror chain. No matter how time it takes... it must be done. It will be done (hopefully), but my-not-so-favourite prime minister Sharon should not give up on his people's safety because the world doesn't like it.</strong><hr></blockquote> Surely killing other inncocent civilians will have no effect on the safety of your own, in fact it would simply cause an increase in the attacks...

8th April 2002, 17:19	#52 (permalink)
JSV woman-hating-mans-man(or sexist tw*t if you'd prefer) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Manchester Posts: 8,354	[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg: <strong> He is a thug, no doubt. However, I think both need to be restrained, for Arafat's Authority executes people without trial as well, orders suicide bombers etc... However, we have to work with both, and as I have said, to do so, you can't do it when they are (in reality) in the midst of a combat situation/.</strong><hr></blockquote> I think Arafat could be restrained... I mean he is now isn't he? Why the need for the killing of so many people? What is happening is not combat... It is illegal immoral oppression and it has to stop...

8th April 2002, 17:21	#53 (permalink)
Roy Reserve Team Player Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Jerusalem, Israel Posts: 2,156	[quote]Originally posted by Amir: <strong>All the leaders (or the people on this forum) who have bright ideas for Israel: Come to Israel, leave your secutiry guards at home, and tour Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa and Netanya. Once you've done that (and lived as well), we'll pull out of the Palestenian territory. We've gone there for one reason and one reason only: To destroy the terror chain. No matter how time it takes... it must be done. It will be done (hopefully), but my-not-so-favourite prime minister Sharon should not give up on his people's safety because the world doesn't like it.</strong><hr></blockquote> Well said mate. I don't want to get involved in this discussion mainly because that's what we talk about all day here in Israel and I've had about enough of it but I'll say one thing, you know absolutely FUCK ALL about what goes on here. When you've actually been to the place, lived there and suffered the way we suffer then your opinion would be valid. Right now, it's a load of crap. Sorry but that's how I see it from this shit-hole.

8th April 2002, 17:25	#54 (permalink)
Amir First Team Sub Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Rehovot, Israel Posts: 9,945	[quote]Originally posted by JSV: <strong> Surely killing other inncocent civilians will have no effect on the safety of your own, in fact it would simply cause an increase in the attacks...</strong><hr></blockquote> We don't kill any innocent civilians for fun, unfortunately the terrorists who we are after aren't very picky, they hide whereever they find and they don't care who gets hurt. Yes, innocent palestenians do get hurt, unfortunately, but you can understand that from my point of view, better them then me!

8th April 2002, 17:31	#55 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	I am only continuing this debate just to see if Senior JSV is actually willing to admit both sides, have had times acted in "appaling human rights" violations. Or something to that effect. I have never heard him criticize Arafat or his Authority, only vague critcism of the suicide bombers.

8th April 2002, 17:35	#56 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	I am actually reading this article in the Wall Street Journal Europe talking about the European left and whether or not it is "spurring" anti-semitism.

8th April 2002, 17:42	#57 (permalink)
AhmedDimwitson The Expert Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: FI Posts: 5,104	[quote]Originally posted by mathiaslg: <strong>I am actually reading this article in the Wall Street Journal Europe talking about the European left and whether or not it is "spurring" anti-semitism.</strong><hr></blockquote> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> what the feck, since when has a european political party been able to spur anything? in the 30s was it? The reason you see these demonstrations is because there are so many muslim immigrants everywhere. It's no coincidence that the economy in those countries never develops, as even here they can spend weekdays protesting instead of working. Western welfare gives this opportunity.

8th April 2002, 18:00	#58 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by AhmedDimwitson: <strong> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> what the feck, since when has a european political party been able to spur anything? in the 30s was it? The reason you see these demonstrations is because there are so many muslim immigrants everywhere. It's no coincidence that the economy in those countries never develops, as even here they can spend weekdays protesting instead of working. Western welfare gives this opportunity. </strong><hr></blockquote> The article is more funny that fact based. I am getting a kick out of it.

8th April 2002, 18:21	#59 (permalink)
passiveman Posts: n/a	[quote] what the feck, since when has a european political party been able to spur anything? in the 30s was it? The reason you see these demonstrations is because there are so many muslim immigrants everywhere. It's no coincidence that the economy in those countries never develops, as even here they can spend weekdays protesting instead of working. Western welfare gives this opportunity. <hr></blockquote>Eh? Is the thrust of this response to imply that Western economies are suffering in terms of growth because of their commitment to provide for those without work? Perhaps it is designed to suggest that the only people who don't work are Muslim immigrants, who are therefore directly culpable for any difficulties the Western economies are suffering from... Or was it your intention to belittle the legitimacy of the anti-Israeli protests by implying that no Westerners are involved?

8th April 2002, 18:22	#60 (permalink)
passiveman Posts: n/a	No, of course your point was to highlight the fact that there are so many Muslim immigrants in the West - the Palestinian diaspora generated by the creation of the state Israel won't have helped this too much... I'm still confused - you seem unhappy that European political parties are totally without influence in the fight to spur anti-semitism??? Some clarification of that extremely odd post would be appreciated.

8th April 2002, 18:28	#61 (permalink)
Mancunian Candidate Posts: n/a	I found the posters (placards) some protestors were carrying blacky humourous - likening Sharon to Hitler, It's kind of ironic.

8th April 2002, 18:46	#62 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by Mancunian Candidate: <strong>I found the posters (placards) some protestors were carrying blacky humourous - likening Sharon to Hitler, It's kind of ironic.</strong><hr></blockquote> Its kind of foolish.

8th April 2002, 18:47	#63 (permalink)
Roy Reserve Team Player Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Jerusalem, Israel Posts: 2,156	[quote]Originally posted by Mancunian Candidate: <strong>I found the posters (placards) some protestors were carrying blacky humourous - likening Sharon to Hitler, It's kind of ironic.</strong><hr></blockquote> No, it's not. Try stupid.

8th April 2002, 18:52	#64 (permalink)
Mancunian Candidate Posts: n/a	[quote]Originally posted by Roy: <strong> No, it's not. Try stupid.</strong><hr></blockquote> Well, so is killing one another. Things like this are bound to happen. Obviously certain facets of the Palestinian people feel they are being treated like animals. Bulldozing homes and running them from their land into refugee camps isn't exactly going to leave them with a good impression. Remember, alot of these people lack the basic education that you and I have in order to make this type of judgement. Stupid or whatever, it's ironic that the victimised are now being portrayed as the aggressors.

8th April 2002, 19:10	#65 (permalink)
Roy Reserve Team Player Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Jerusalem, Israel Posts: 2,156	[quote]Originally posted by Mancunian Candidate: <strong> Well, so is killing one another. Things like this are bound to happen. Obviously certain facets of the Palestinian people feel they are being treated like animals. Bulldozing homes and running them from their land into refugee camps isn't exactly going to leave them with a good impression. Remember, alot of these people lack the basic education that you and I have in order to make this type of judgement. Stupid or whatever, it's ironic that the victimised are now being portrayed as the aggressors.</strong><hr></blockquote> Treated like animals or not (I think they are treated badly, but animals is an exaggeration), Israel does what it has to do in order to protect its citizens, the way every other sovereign country would do. Secondly, the Palestinians have brought everything on themselves and have no one else to blame for their poor condition (apart from their leadership). Also, any comparisons with the Nazis or Hitler or whatever is just ludicrous as the Jews in Europe never attacked other civilians, nor have they exploded buses, cafes and restaurants. I don't find the fact that we're currently fighting someone to be quite so ironic. I think we are fighting for what "we" have always fought for, i.e to live in peace in a country of our own.

8th April 2002, 19:10	#66 (permalink)
AhmedDimwitson The Expert Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: FI Posts: 5,104	[quote]Originally posted by passiveman: <strong>Eh? Is the thrust of this response to imply that Western economies are suffering in terms of growth because of their commitment to provide for those without work? Perhaps it is designed to suggest that the only people who don't work are Muslim immigrants, who are therefore directly culpable for any difficulties the Western economies are suffering from... Or was it your intention to belittle the legitimacy of the anti-Israeli protests by implying that no Westerners are involved?</strong><hr></blockquote> Well, the westerners involved are the unemployed communists who have nothing better to do than protest. Like Gothenburg last year when these destroyed a city, these communists were interviewed and asked what they were angry at, they didn't know, they were protesting against everything. These protests get legitimacy when working people like myself get involved and not this professional protestors who are everywhere and who no-one listens to. You have to wonder what the muslim community are thinking, muslims from Indonesia to Marocco are spending the entire day protesting and burning flags, the next thing their government do is hand in a request for money to the world bank and wonder why the hell their country ain't producing anything. The answer to their problem is that you use the resources you have and make it work, like in real life. You have the choice to educate yourself and get a decent job or be unemployed living on welfare ultimatelly provided by those who work. And there is something fundamentally wrong with society when we are importing unemployed people who do not even try to intgrate. Take Finland as an example of success, in the 50s they had a huge debt to pay to Sovjet, they payed it and gradually they have developed their economy from scratch to being voted most competitive in the world. All through hard work and usage of the limited resources available. These underdeveloped countries could follow the same example if they would do some work. But it's ultimately a cultural thing and it won't happen. So in short in my previous post I did indeed question the legitimacy of the protests and necessarity of them.

8th April 2002, 19:15	#67 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	You kidding, those Muslim gov'ts are basically doing the same thing as their people. While their uneducated masses chear on Arafat, and burn American or Israeli flags, their leaders are too busy stating what Israel is doing is terrorism while ignoring what the Palestinians are doing.

8th April 2002, 19:17	#68 (permalink)
Mancunian Candidate Posts: n/a	Both sides are fucked. One big bomb in the middle of Jersalem is all that will solve it, or so it seems.

8th April 2002, 19:17	#69 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by AhmedDimwitson: <strong> But it's ultimately a cultural thing and it won't happen. </strong><hr></blockquote> I agree, and it kind of ironic, going from the most advanced civilization to being the most backwards.

8th April 2002, 19:18	#70 (permalink)
mathiaslg First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: DC, USA Posts: 11,116	[quote]Originally posted by Mancunian Candidate: <strong>Both sides are fucked. One big bomb in the middle of Jersalem is all that will solve it, or so it seems.</strong><hr></blockquote> Yeah, that would solve it

8th April 2002, 19:19	#71 (permalink)
passiveman Posts: n/a	[quote] muslims from Indonesia to Marocco are spending the entire day protesting and burning flags <hr></blockquote> That's a good example of an unhelpful generalisation - I don't make generic assumptions about jews - you could do well to understand that muslims vary as much in their opinions and relative beliefs as Christians.

8th April 2002, 19:21	#72 (permalink)
passiveman Posts: n/a	[quote] Well, the westerners involved are the unemployed communists who have nothing better to do than protest <hr></blockquote> Are you personally acquainted with these people?