United's penalty-takers

rufus diabolus · 16th April 2008, 23:19

This lads right footed, derren brown doesn't do too badly predicting where he's going to shoot.

Pat_Mustard · 16th April 2008, 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by robthered

Another classic thread. Since the Chief told Ciderman to go and do some homework I thought I'd have a quick look. This is probably just made up through right?

Palacios-Heurta (2003) -

"First, it will be shown that there is a perfect symmetry between left-footed and right-footed kickers. In fact, the hypothesis that the game is identical for left-footed and right-footed kickers, up to the appropriate renaming of the actions, will not be rejected."

"Data on 1417 penalty kicks have been collected during the period September 1995–June 2000 from professional games in Spain, Italy, England and other countries."

"As is clear, these two groups of kickers have different strong sides. Left-footed kickers shoot more often to the L.H.S. of the goalkeeper than to the R.H.S., whereas right-footed kickers shoot more often to the R.H.S. In the next section we will consider these to be their “natural sides” respectively, and choices will be renamed accordingly. Goalkeepers, in turn, tend to choose right more often than left when facing a right-footed kicker, and left more often than right when facing a left-footed kicker. Scoring rates are similar for the two player types for all penalties and for given score difference."

And just out of interest I found another journal paper which said that statistically penalties should always be taken in reverse order of ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bury Red

There is no laterality in the success ratios - left footed and right footed strikers have the same success when the frequencies are represented as percentages.

Based on a statistical analysis of all the penalties from the 2002 World Cup and Champions League.

There's lies, damned lies and statistics.

But if you want to be 100% certain there's only The Chief*

Oh, and Kemo of course.

Has he even bothered to acknowledge either of these studies yet?

ciderman9000000 · 16th April 2008, 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat_Mustard

Has he even bothered to acknowledge either of these studies yet?

Nah, it's unbelievable! He's in the general right now saying that they PROVE his point!

Pat_Mustard · 17th April 2008, 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ciderman9000000

Nah, it's unbelievable! He's in the general right now saying that they PROVE his point!

Just read that thread. He's truly insane.

Bury Red · 17th April 2008, 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat_Mustard

Has he even bothered to acknowledge either of these studies yet?

I suppose you could say he acknowledged the one I posted although I'm not really sure whether he read it, understood it or quite what he meant by:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

You wish. I bet that is pretty solid data. Which I second my self.

I'm not sure whether he's agreeing with the conclusions of that study there or not, he might even be suggesting that it's something I dreamt up.

This thread's headed to the classics next time it stops.

reddevilcanada · 17th April 2008, 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Instead of finding out for themselves, all I'm getting on here is that I'm wrong. Based strictly on opinion and no solid evidence to refute what I stated. With the very method I derived my statement being scoffed at. Frankly, I'm not the one basing things on mere opinion in here. That's for sure.

you seem to have missed the studies presented in this thread that say you're talking out of your ass again, see post #282, where someone else has tried to bring to your attention those evidence.

Cornell · 17th April 2008, 05:09

Hehe.

The Chief's been comedy dynamite in this thread from start to finish.

As has Ciderman mind, but for the right reasons.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 17th April 2008, 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat_Mustard

Has he even bothered to acknowledge either of these studies yet?

Do you actually read anything people post? Or just mouth of what the hell you feel? That study shows several things I've said that are true. Like the fact left footers are not in anyway inferior to right footers as penalty takers.

Cornell · 17th April 2008, 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Do you actually read anything people post? Or just mouth of what the hell you feel? That study shows several things I've said that are true. Like the fact left footers are not in anyway inferior to right footers as penalty takers.

Wouldn't left footed players, being "easier to read" in your own words, be inferior penalty takers?

reddevilcanada · 17th April 2008, 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Do you actually read anything people post? Or just mouth of what the hell you feel? That study shows several things I've said that are true. Like the fact left footers are not in anyway inferior to right footers as penalty takers.

but where do those studies say that left-footers are more predictable or readable in their penalty taking, the main assertion you initially made?

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 17th April 2008, 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddevilcanada

you seem to have missed the studies presented in this thread that say you're talking out of your ass again, see post #282, where someone else has tried to bring to your attention those evidence.

You are not serious the studies they posted agree with me.

1) I said left footers even though their penalties are more predictable, they are not inferior penalty takers. The study proves they are not inferior

2) I said penalties are not a lottery and pressure is not a great factor ind determining who wins penalty shoot outs. The study confirms that their are optimal methods of training to win a penalty shout out and doesn't site pressure as a major factor.

3) Another study posted in this thread, taken from a larger sample size than world cup penalties showed that left footers tend to miss a bit more than right footers. Tying in with my statements about their penalties being predictable and their method of taking penalties.

Why are you ignoring all these things? How many should tally with what I'm saying before you actually admit I know what I'm talking about. How can you claim I'm "ignoring" those reports. Or call me insane when the majority of the things are argeeing with most of the things I've been saying? Please explain that to me.

Cornell · 17th April 2008, 08:01

Chief, what i'm trying to understand is how, if left footers are more predictable, are they not inferior penalty takers?

Being predictable is surely a disadvantage, and if there is a disadvantage then stats will prove it over time in right footers favour. Which they haven't.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 17th April 2008, 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

I think you're onto something here. In the same way that facing a southpaw boxer can mess with your head, facing a left-footed penalty might put some keepers off.

So there might just be a reason why left-footed penalty takers are more succesful but I'm fucked if I can think why they might be any worse.

You have no evidence that left footers are more successful penalty takers than right footed ones.

Cornell · 17th April 2008, 08:05

Chief, do you have selective vision?

reddevilcanada · 17th April 2008, 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

You are not serious the studies they posted agree with me.

1) I said left footers even though their penalties are more predictable, they are not inferior penalty takers. The study proves they are not inferior

2) I said penalties are not a lottery and pressure is not a great factor ind determining who wins penalty shoot outs. The study confirms that their are optimal methods of training to win a penalty shout out and doesn't site pressure as a major factor.

3) Another study posted in this thread, taken from a larger sample size than world cup penalties showed that left footers tend to miss a bit more than right footers. Tying in with my statements about their penalties being predictable and their method of taking penalties.

Why are you ignoring all these things? How many should tally with what I'm saying before you actually admit I know what I'm talking about. How can you claim I'm "ignoring" those reports. Or call me insane when the majority of the things are argeeing with most of the things I've been saying? Please explain that to me.

you have made quite a few contradictions to your other statements in this post alone, but I'll tell you what you're ignoring teh most;

you've failed to say where these studies agree with your main assertion that left footers' penalties are more predictable. Hope this is clear.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 17th April 2008, 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornell

Chief, what i'm trying to understand is how, if left footers are more predictable, are they not inferior penalty takers?

It's not hard to understand is it? Just because I know what your going to doesn't mean I will succeed in stopping you does it? Look at big team like Arsenal plays. We all know how they will play from match to match. Their style practically doesn't change from game to game! Yet how often do teams actually stop them when they are on form? Even though they know exactly what Arsenal will do through out the game and season?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornell

Being predictable is surely a disadvantage, and if there is a disadvantage then stats will prove it over time in right footers favour. Which they haven't.

That's just wrong. Being predictable in penalties isn't a disadvantage. Neither will it reflect on a small penalty taking sample size like that at world cups. Because if the ball is truck fast enough, and accurately, the keeper can know where it's going all day with out ever keeping it out. This shouldn't be a hard thing to grasp or accept. After all How many times have we seen keepers go the right way and never keep the ball out?

That is why the study on world cup shoot outs proves left footers are not inferior to right footers in penalty taking. But the study taken from a larger sample size like several leagues from several countries shows the slight difference in scoring rate. That difference accounts for the predictability I talked about. Plus the method in which left footers actually take their penalties. Going for placement rather than mere power like the majority of right footers.

reddevilcanada · 17th April 2008, 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornell

Chief, what i'm trying to understand is how, if left footers are more predictable, are they not inferior penalty takers?

Being predictable is surely a disadvantage, and if there is a disadvantage then stats will prove it over time in right footers favour. Which they haven't.

Good question Cornell, let's see what the Rubberman thinks:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

You are not serious the studies they posted agree with me.

3) Another study posted in this thread, taken from a larger sample size than world cup penalties showed that left footers tend to miss a bit more than right footers. Tying in with my statements about their penalties being predictable and their method of taking penalties.

Basically, left footers are more predictable and easier to read but they are not inferior penalty takers. But a study shows that they miss more than right footers and so are inferior but this only proves that they are easier to read, not that they are inferior penalty takers.

And he knows this because he descends from the race that are masters of the art of penalty taking and he's done the research himself, so don't even question this statement of fact!

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 17th April 2008, 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddevilcanada

you have made quite a few contradictions to your other statements in this post alone,

That's bollocks. I have not made single contradiction. My statements on penalties haven't changed. They largely coincide with everything that report said. You are just burying your head in the sand like an ostrich and refusing to admit this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddevilcanada

but I'll tell you what you're ignoring teh most
you've failed to say where these studies agree with your main assertion that left footers' penalties are more predictable. Hope this is clear.

This is really a joke. That report can't say anything on my main assertion. Because they never tallied any data on how many times the keeper actually followed the direction of the ball succesfully, with or with out stopping it and how many times that occurred when facing left or right footers. Neither did they present any data on how frequently left or right footers chose to strike the ball in a particular direction.

Cornell · 17th April 2008, 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

It's not hard to understand is it? Just because I know what your going to doesn't mean I will succeed in stopping you does it? Look at big team like Arsenal plays. We all know how they will play from match to match. Their style practically doesn't change from game to game! Yet how often do teams actually stop them when they are on form? Even though they know exactly what Arsenal will do through out the game and season?

Err that example is a bit shit there Chief. Stopping an entire team from playing football on a huge pitch with 11 players is entirely different to stopping a penalty.

Quote:

That's just wrong. Being predictable in penalties isn't a disadvantage. Neither will it reflect on a small penalty taking sample size like that at world cups. Because if the ball is truck fast enough, and accurately, the keeper can know where it's going all day with out ever keeping it out. This shouldn't be a hard thing to grasp or accept. After all How many times have we seen keepers go the right way and never keep the ball out?

Yes it fucking is! Louis Saha, last season took all his penalties to the left of the keeper. Boruc figured him out and saved Saha's penalty in the game at Celtic Park.

Quote:

Plus the method in which left footers actually take their penalties. Going for placement rather than mere power like the majority of right footers.

What?!?

Are you kidding me? It's all to do with the player, and the individual penalty. How do you back up such a statement?

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 17th April 2008, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornell

Chief, do you have selective vision?

why the fuck should I have selective vision?

reddevilcanada · 17th April 2008, 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

That's bollocks. I have not made single contradiction. My statements on penalties haven't changed. They largely coincide with everything that report said. You are just burying your head in the sand like an ostrich and refusing to admit this.

This is really a joke. That report can't say anything on my main assertion. Because they never tallied any data on how many times the keeper actually followed the direction of the ball succesfully, with or with out stopping it and how many times that occurred when facing left or right footers. Neither did they present any data on how frequently left or right footers chose to strike the ball in a particular direction.

you haven't made any contradiction? so saying that a report shows left footers miss more than right footers and, are thus inferior, proves they're more predictable but not inferior? You seriously don't see the contradiction in there?

your main assertion that left footers are more predictable penalty takers is bullshit, that's why the article doesn't even bother proving that nonsense.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 17th April 2008, 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornell

Err that example is a bit shit there Chief. Stopping an entire team from playing football on a huge pitch with 11 players is entirely different to stopping a penalty.

That's bollocks and you know it. The examples of predictability tally nicely with each other. They prove being predicable doesn't equate to being easily stoppable. A penalty is a penalty because the keeper's chances of stopping it are very minimal. So him knowing where it is headed wont increase his chances of stopping it one bit. That is pretty obvious and the chief reason why many keepers go the right way and even get a hand to a penalty with out ever keeping it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornell

Yes it fucking is! Louis Saha, last season took all his penalties to the left of the keeper. Boruc figured him out and saved Saha's penalty in the game at Celtic Park.

Boruc only saved the penalty simply because Saha never hit it hard enough. Not because he knew where it was headed. That should have been pretty obvious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornell

How do you back up such a statement?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornell

What?!?

Are you kidding me? It's all to do with the player, and the individual penalty.How do you back up such a statement?

What? Are you the one kidding me? Did I talk about the "individual penalty"? and connect it to the player too? Can you back that up?

lem8sh · 17th April 2008, 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

That's bollocks and you know it. The examples of predictability tally nicely with each other. They prove being predicable doesn't equate to being easily stoppable. A penalty is a penalty because the keeper's chances of stopping it are very minimal. So him knowing where it is headed wont increase his chances of stopping it one bit.

Probably the most stupid thing I've ever read

Cornell · 17th April 2008, 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Boruc only saved the penalty simply because Saha never hit it hard enough. Not because he knew where it was headed. That should have been pretty obvious.

"But I was thinking about the last one he scored against me and I thought he might do the same thing, that's what was on my mind."

http://www.mylot.com/w/discussions/276048.aspx

Saha hit a predictable penalty, which proved to be a disadvantage.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 17th April 2008, 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddevilcanada

you haven't made any contradiction? so saying that a report shows left footers miss more than right footers and, are thus inferior, proves they're more predictable but not inferior? You seriously don't see the contradiction in there?

Because the isn't one. Being predictable does not equal being easily stoppable. That should be as simple as ABC to understand

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddevilcanada

your main assertion that left footers are more predictable penalty takers is bullshit, that's why the article doesn't even bother proving that nonsense.

Rather what is bull shit is the logic you are using. That report was not designed to collect data in any way that would factor in predictability. But this is too hard a concept for you to grasp. Because you've always been a moron.

16th April 2008, 23:19	#281 (permalink)
rufus diabolus Reserve Team Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Why So Serious? Posts: 3,060	This lads right footed, derren brown doesn't do too badly predicting where he's going to shoot.

17th April 2008, 05:09	#287 (permalink)
Cornell Reserve Team Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Sydney 2000. - Wesley Brown is a national hero. Posts: 4,455	Hehe. The Chief's been comedy dynamite in this thread from start to finish. As has Ciderman mind, but for the right reasons.

17th April 2008, 08:01	#292 (permalink)
Cornell Reserve Team Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Sydney 2000. - Wesley Brown is a national hero. Posts: 4,455	Chief, what i'm trying to understand is how, if left footers are more predictable, are they not inferior penalty takers? Being predictable is surely a disadvantage, and if there is a disadvantage then stats will prove it over time in right footers favour. Which they haven't.

17th April 2008, 08:05	#294 (permalink)
Cornell Reserve Team Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Sydney 2000. - Wesley Brown is a national hero. Posts: 4,455	Chief, do you have selective vision?