The West Wing....

Melbourne Red

Just watched most of season five. Was ready to pack it in after the first two episodes, which saw a continuation of the awful soap opera style scripting from season 4, but after they tied up the loose ends of the Zoe storyline, it very much hit its straps again and started resembling the West Wing of old - tight scripting, high-brow content and emphasis on the politics rather than on the people, albeit with brief glimpses of their personal lives.

They do seem to have got rid of the comedy elements of the first few series though. The quick-fire banter seems to have been replaced with quick-fire seriousness.

Prophet_of_Doom

Spot on. The show becomes far more earnest following Sorkin's departure and loses some of its 'wit'. It still picks up again though and once the writers find their feet it evolves into something slightly different but nonetheless rewarding.

zain

LOL..I cannot believe i am seeing this now, this is amazing....before the 2004 Presidential election

B Cantona

I've just watched the final episode of season 7 tonight, and thus have completed the box set. I'm quite sad, I genuinely loved every minute of it, and I can't believe it was cancelled, people must be mugs, what else are they watching instead?!

That said the symmetry and timing was there to end it I guess. And it would have been sad losing some of the main characters from the entire series. But still, the general populous is shite

R_Kelly

I think if they'd tried to carry it on with a new administration it would have ruined it. The best shows always know when to stop milking it.

Still, I would love some new episodes though!

adexkola

How does the West Wing portray right wing politics?

Dowders_Jnr

I pondered this a while ago actually. But the show couldn't live without Bartlett in prominence. Nor would it be the same without Toby, Leo and CJ, but most importantly, it would be unsustainable over long, long period without Sorkin. Let's just bask in the glory of what was.

Dowders_Jnr

There are stereotypes on both sides. You're let in no doubt when watching the show that the right provides not only the opposition politically, but also the enemy idealogically. This is boiled down into many simple face-offs between things like permissive society vs traditional values, big government vs state control etc etc. At times, The West Wing can be quite savage to the right, however, it still displays a self-effaciveness which I suspect a show about Republicans in the White House wouldn't.

R_Kelly

Sorkin left the show after season 4 anyway. But I do agree it ended at the right time.

Dowders_Jnr

No, I know that and season 5 was a big drop off and it rallied a little in 6 and 7 but beyond that, without him, it wouldn't have been a show.

B Cantona

I don't think the writing suffered myself, if anything the characters got stronger. Perhaps some of the plot ideas weren't always the greatest after he left, some more mundane stuff in there, but I didn't mind that. There was never a point watching I genuinely thought it was going through a trough. And you have to remember, Sorkin had that dreadful Mandy character in season 1, though at least he realised the error of his ways there

I only found out yesterday Ron Silverwood, who played Bruno, dies last year, made me feel sad he was one of my favourite characters

duffer

I agree completely. The last two seasons in particular had some great stuff. The last couple of episodes of season 6 are probably my favourite of the entire run.

I didn't know that about Ron Silverwood. Sad news indeed. He made what could have been an entirely unlikable character likable.

R_Kelly

Jesus I didnt know that about Ron Silverwood either, that's very sad. He was brilliant in this show, and like duffer says he made a potentially unlikeable character very likeable indeed.

Count Duckula

Was it cancelled? I thought the writers just felt it had reached its natural end - ie, the competion of the Bartlett administration. It finished at the perfect time, which leads to me to think it was deliberate.

B Cantona

I might be wrong, I thought it was to do with the dropping ratings

R_Kelly

Brad is right, NBC pulled the plug after ratings dipped, although that was also partly due to it being moved to Sunday nights.

Team Brian GB

One of the key reasons why they finished it was because John "Leo McGarry" Spencer died, he was to be an integral character linking the two administrations and the whole West Wing canon.

Team Brian GB

I thought the final few episodes were underwhelming for such a magificent programme, it would have been fitting if they ended it on Bartlett's successor's presidential oath.

The humour did drop after Season Four but it was still there, for instance I recall an episode around season six where a situtation between Canadian and American ranchers is escalating and figures were calling for a military response, plus VP Bob Russell was always good for a laugh (I always remember Bob Russell is so dull, his secret service codename is Bob Russell). I agree about it being informative, typically it had many critics in the US for it spreading liberal views (what a shocker about a programme with a Democrat administration) who used to call it 'the left wing'.

Lynott

I got the complete series 2 years ago and eventually started watching it over the last month.

I am now mid way through season 3 and I have to say that it is pure quality. One of the best shows I have ever seen even if the sound quality is shite, esepcially when Toby Ziegler speaks.

Love it.

Lynott

Very true this. I was going to say that I have the same feeling watching the West Wing as I did when watching the Sopranos or the Wire but it is too different a show to compare.

zain

Watching this all over again, my god the writing is fucking fantastic and hilarious at times...
Margaret (Leo's assistant) is such an underrated character!

"Red meat has been found to cause cancer in white rats. Maraschino cherries have been found to cause cancer in white rats. Cellular phones have been found to cause cancer in white rats. Has anyone examined the possibility that cancer might be hereditary in white rats?"

Lynott

I'm coming tothe end of that season now. It is very average and the Zoe storyline at the start was rubbish.

The highlight was Toby having to share Air Force 1 with the Republican ex-Presidents.

beacon

Help me out here. I downloaded the first 3 seasons. I've watched the pilot and I thought the writing was good, but not a great deal happened.

The wife and I sat down to watch the 2nd episode, and 20 minutes in she turned to me and said "this is the dullest thing I've ever seen". I found it hard to disagree.

Everyone I know says this is fantastic, this thread is a veritable fanfest.

I want to persevere, but aside from the few set pieces like those I've already seen on Youtube (I'm thinking the Bible quotes scene) I'm finding it hard to get excited by what I've seen so far. I'm going to find it even harder to convince my wife to persevere with me.

Tell me it gets more interesting and isn't just an incredibly dull political saga.

duffer

I'd give it a few more episodes before you give up.

It does not turn into Prison Break or Spartacus Blood and Sand at any point though.

zain

Give it time, and I promise you, you will be rewarded...

Greatest TV show of all time..

Northstand

Agree it's an excellent show, but it's not to everyone's taste. The West Wing's strengths are the quality of the writing, and some terrific ensemble acting. In comparison to some shows though (24, for example), the West Wing does lack suspense.

Team Brian GB

A large swathe of people who love it from the very start will be political purists so to speak as it has to establish everybody and the workings of the White House etc. though by half-a-dozen episodes in the humour kicks into full flow and the first classic episodes will come along.

I have just began watching the series from the very beginning for an umteenth time, the first season has some great episodes - '5 votes down', '20 hours in LA', 'Lord John Marbury', 'Celestial Navigation' - if you don't like those then you probably won't like the series entire.

zain

In comparison to 24 etc yeah it lacks suspense, but it's got its fair share of suspense and surprises..

especially when it comes time for the political campaigns, that's when it really hits the ground running and gets fast paced too..

beacon

Thanks for all the comments. I did find a few moments of wry humour in what I have watched so far, and I'm not expecting a 24 level of suspense, but I'm hoping the subject matter becomes a little more interesting based upon character development rather than political discourse. Politics is interesting to a point but even the purist must admit it gets a little dry without a decent human angle. I found the mid episode recap of the pilot a bit unnecessary for anyone who had been paying attention, but I'm assuming that probably won't happen every episode, and it was hardly a deal breaker.

Rob Lowe's character seems like he might be interesting.

I'll give it another couple of episodes and see what happens.

R_Kelly

I'm a huge fan of the show and I first tried to get the missus to watch it a few years ago and after watching the pilot she didn't want to watch any more. I figured it's not for everyone so left it at that. About a year ago though I felt like rewatching it and convinced her to give it another chance, I made her promise she'd watch the whole of season 1 and if she still didn't like it I'd never mention it again.

Now, my missus itsn't in the slightest bit interested in politics in any way, shape or form, but after about half way through season 1 she was hooked and we chained the way through the entire 7 seasons pretty quickly after that and she loves it. She's even suggested watching it again.

In summary; definitely give it more time mate.

LARulz

Started watching it over a week ago and am at season 5 at the moment. Great show with so much happening and so many good characters. The only thing that bugs me at this point is the way some characters just disappear without much explanation why, such as Mandy, Ainsley (unless I missed that) and Sam (I say that based on him not being in the season 5 credits I have watched up to). I know a lot happens but you'd think there would be some mention of him, especially as if he lost he was being promoted to what Toby was, they could have at least said why he didn't take the job.

I do like that they can get these fairly big name guest stars in at varies points and how most characters are introduced. I'm not so keen on Charlie for some reason, he can be quite good at times but it was when he was big brother to that kid that annoyed me, his arrogance was unnecessary.

Excal

Mandy was "locked in the basement" (the character was unlikeable and superfluous and went away after season 1).

Ainsley was only ever on the series because the network demanded a protagonist Republican. She reappeared towards the end of season 7.

Sam's departure was a major storyline that occurred over several episodes, and I'm baffled as to how you could have missed it. He also returns towards the end of season 7.

LARulz

The Sam thing I may not have got to yet as I've just got to the point where Zoey has returned after being kidnapped. Would have been disappointing not have seen Sam at some point again so would have been good to see his story wrapped up. After Sam losing/being told he'd get thrashed, I assumed he'd be back to working in the White House.

Mandy was very unlikable but some explanation as to where she went would have been nice (though of course I could have forgotten if they did). Only reason I was disappointed about Ainsley was because she was nice to look at and a fairly decent character, but as she wasn't really a big White House staff to be focused on its not that big a loss as I assumed she'd be doing lawyer work.

Excal

It was reasonably well-known at the time that Rob Lowe was leaving the show, so perhaps it didn't get explained as well as it could have, but whether or not Sam accepted the promotion to the White House Counsel's Office, the character soon after left the White House, moved back to LA and joined a law firm.

There was none. The character sucked, so she was never heard from again.

Melbourne Red

Saw the first three eps of Season 6 yesterday, and after the welcome return to form that was Season 5, I'm starting to think it's almost as cheesy and clumsy as Season 4.

Problems so far:

1) The dry one-liners and banter between characters have become strained at best, and awful at worst. Example, In episode 3, why is CJ so determined to stop Josh eating cake? Why has this irredeemably questionable premise been allowed to form the basis for an entire subplot?

2)"WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT BUT GOD I'M ANGRY!" They seemed to have replaced the understated poignancy and pathos of the best scenes in the earlier seasons with scenes featuring actors yelling limp pieces of dialogue in an angry tone.

3) There has been a serious dumbing down of the show. Watching the Israeli PM and the Palestinian sitting with Bartlett, sipping tea and arguing empassioned idealogical tosh, undergrad syle, about the history of the conflict made me cringe. Where is the portrayal of the fecking politics behind the Arab-Israeli conflict? Stuff like winning elections, keeping different factions happy, saving face - you know, the sort of thing they used to analyse so well back when the show was good.

4) The fucking melodrama. Does Bartlett really need to have a conversation with the Israeli PM in the dim late-afternoon light, in the middle of a forest? Is the Chairman of the Palestinian Authority really going to be persuaded to end a 60 year conflict thanks to a deep-and-meaningful chat, whilst strolling through a different part of that forest, with an attractive and well-meaning blonde White House staffer? And would the American president really spent hours and hours of his sitting in a hospital waiting room, seemingly with no one from the patient's actual family sitting there with him, on a day when his administration are about to sign a treaty to end the Arab-Israeli conflict? And I realise that TWW, being a network show, was always a bit melodramatic compared to the good HBO shows, but this is starting to resemble Days of Our Lives.

5) The complete abandonment of any attempt at realism. Yes, I realise that the show was never absolutely faithful to what actually goes on inside the White House. I mean, obviously, it's a fecking TV show. But at this stage it's starting to get silly. Why do the five or six central characters of the show, as a group, seem to be singularly responsible for every single part of the Camp David negotation? Where are the rooms full of generals addressing Bartlett that used to be portrayed in the early years? Where are the special interest groups, congressman, senior White House staffers, and why is there not even a single scene depicting a realistically large sized American delegation sitting in a room together?

I have a load of other issues with it, but I cannot be arsed typing any more. I'm going to persist with it and see if it gets better, but any minute now I'm expecting President Bartlett to trade his impeccable French shoes for a pair of water skis and jump over a confined marine predator.

kps88

Not reading this thread due to spoilers. I just started season 4, was wondering how bad the show gets after Sorkin leaves? Is it worth sticking with till the very end? I thought the first two seasons were excellent, the third less so but still very good.

Team Brian GB

Yes it is, there are those who think that the second season is the best, the third season is the best, the fourth season is the best and the seventh season is the best.

My personal view is that the programme was at its peak from the middle of the third season to the middle of the fourth. The fifth many people didn't like because that is immediately after Sorkin left it but I think it is underrated though I didn't really like the end of season four/beginning of season five story arc. The sixth was also very good in which the formula begins to change, now beginning to focus on primary season, and in the seventh the White House takes a back seat to the race for the Presidency which many thought was the West Wing back at its very best.

R_Kelly

5 and 6 are the weaker of the set, but they're still very good. I agree with Brian in saying 7 was a return to glory, I really enjoyed that season. I won't say character names as you've not got there yet, but the two main guys in the election race were very good.

evra

I can't believe it has taken me so long to give this a decent chance, I have such a busy February and this is going to absolutely ruin me.

McLovin

Just started this bad boy following the solid reviews I've read on here. Up to episode 16 of the 1st season.

Anyone else disliked Leo, at this point of this show? Not sure why but I just don't like the guy. Maybe because looks like my grandfather, who's a bit of a cunt.