Alas poor Carrick...forsooth, he's quite good now!

mr.suave · 15th February 2012, 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood

What?

But we agree don't we? You said he started the season 3rd or 4th choice due to poor form, but then you agreed that he finished the season in good form?

What are we disagreeing on?

Christ, this is hassle trying to write this on my phone!

Right, I said that him and Giggs played well as a partnership at the end of last season, particularly in Europe, but that Carrick was just going through the motions. That's what he does sometimes (and in fact for about 12 months before before finding his form again); does a job defensively without ever excelling. Tidy rather than expansive football. Giggs played really well IMO but Carrick was so-so, yet together they were solid.

You said he played superbly at the tail end of last season, and I disagreed, so that's what I meant in my last post.

mr.suave · 15th February 2012, 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwned

Yes. His first game of the season was against City in the Charity Shield, we dominated and he played well. His first league game was against Bolton and the same happened. Other than that he played against Benfica, Basel, Leeds and Chelsea up until October. He played well against Benfica, was a centre back against Leeds and played 30 mins against Chelsea (and iirc he did nothing wrong there). He was influential going forward against Basel but wasn't his usual self defensively, just like every other player that day really.

So if you want to be critical, one poor game and one mediocre game at worst...pretty much shite indeed.

Pffttt.

OK, let me rephrase that then. His current run of form didn't begin begin until October. Before then we had months and months of mediocrity from him.

I'm always right · 15th February 2012, 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.suave

Giggs played really well IMO but Carrick was so-so, yet together they were solid.

You said he played superbly at the tail end of last season, and I disagreed, so that's what I meant in my last post.

Ah now I get you.

Totally disagree that it was all Giggs and that Carrick was so-so.

mr.suave · 15th February 2012, 10:40

Ha OK... then this time we'll have to agree to disagree.

ben_foster · 15th February 2012, 10:41

op....your mate looks a bit of a twat doesnt he?

dont think tosic has played in 3 champions league finals, winning one.

nor does he have 4 out of 5 league titles (potentially 5 out of 6)

nor is a he a front runner for player of the year this year.

always said our midfield problem is eased by carrick and not caused by him. imagine how could he can be with a top qaulity partner........as he was in 2007 with scholesy.

kietotheworld · 15th February 2012, 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDevilCanuck

The criticism of Carrick all stems from losing 2 finals to Barca and Carrick taking a while to play into form after an injury.

And this is all ridiculous.

Fergie and the coaching staff got it all wrong tactically in both games. Playing 2 forwards was suicide. Carrick was outnumbered and could do nothing.

Every other midfield that Carrick has faced in Europe, Carrick has pissed on.

That's just not true at all, the vast majority of the criticism came before the 2nd CL Final, and had dried up in the months leading up to it, coincidentally when he actually started to play well. I agree that he took perhaps too much stick after the first one, but it did show beyond any serious doubt that he's not a player in the very top bracket of central midfielders. If we accept that he took too much criticism though, that's not a reason to shield him from everything else, or ignore the other performances that he's been criticised for.

Rather than a Champions League Final though, there was a lot of criticism of him last year, not for failing to best Xavi and Iniesta, but for failing to best Barry Bannan and Jonathan Hogg, for being poor against Southampton, for having a shocker against Gerrard, Lucas and Meireles. The previous season he was appalling against Bayern Munich in the Champions League Quarter Final, not to mention an awful performance against Milan in the previous round which culminated in a dismissal.

Saying that, your theory might be accurate, if you hold that it is, there are still a couple of things that puzzle me though, maybe you can help. Why, if Carrick has pissed on every other midfield he's faced in Europe, has he been constantly overlooked as a top player? Not just by the media, not just by football fans, but by Fabio Capello? Let's not forget, Capello is one of the world's foremost football managers, with a list of honours as long as your arm. Did this managerial great ignore Carrick for the vast majority of his England career purely because of one game in Rome, despite him dominating against virtually every midfield he faced?

I'm always right · 15th February 2012, 11:53

Fabio Capello ♥ Gareth Barry.

I'll settle for Sir Alex Ferguson's stance on the matter thanks kie.

SAF > Capello

Lance Uppercut · 15th February 2012, 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feed Me

As a monumental Carrick fan and one of the biggest contributors to this thread, I'd like to have my say.

Those who criticised his form at points over the last couple of years were right to do so. Carrick's performance levels weren't up to the level he's capable of. You only need to see his form now to realise this.

However, it is the severity of the criticism that was wrong in most quarters; people calling for him to be sold were ridiculous.

At his best, as he is now, he's one of the best in the world.

You think Carrick is one of the best midfielders in the world?

finneh · 15th February 2012, 12:29

It's also important to note how every teams' fans massively overrate the player that shields the back four. Every Arsenal fan raves about Song being on another level, every Spurs fan raves about Sandro/Parker, every Liverpool fan now raves about Lucas and every Newcastle fan raves about Tiote.

The truth is Carrick is not one of the best midfielders in the world and never will be, just like Parker & Lucas won't be. When on form as he currently is however he is exceptionally important to the team and could easily be the difference between winning the league and not winning it this year.

Pogue Mahone · 15th February 2012, 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by finneh

It's also important to note how every teams' fans massively overrate the player that shields the back four. Every Arsenal fan raves about Song being on another level, every Spurs fan raves about Sandro/Parker, every Liverpool fan now raves about Lucas and every Newcastle fan raves about Tiote.

The truth is Carrick is not one of the best midfielders in the world and never will be, just like Parker & Lucas won't be. When on form as he currently is however he is exceptionally important to the team and could easily be the difference between winning the league and not winning it this year.

Err... Fans only rave about defensive midfielders who do a good job. Something that all the above have done for their clubs over the last season or two. They're all good players. Carrick the best of the lot. Well, him or Song.

You'll struggle to find fans raving about their deep-lying midfielders when their team is getting humped on a regular basis.

kietotheworld · 15th February 2012, 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood

Fabio Capello ♥ Gareth Barry.

I'll settle for Sir Alex Ferguson's stance on the matter thanks kie.

SAF > Capello

What is Sir Alex Ferguson's stance on Carrick Vs. Barry?

Rado_N · 15th February 2012, 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by finneh

It's also important to note how every teams' fans massively overrate the player that shields the back four. Every Arsenal fan raves about Song being on another level, every Spurs fan raves about Sandro/Parker, every Liverpool fan now raves about Lucas and every Newcastle fan raves about Tiote.

The truth is Carrick is not one of the best midfielders in the world and never will be, just like Parker & Lucas won't be. When on form as he currently is however he is exceptionally important to the team and could easily be the difference between winning the league and not winning it this year.

So he's an exceptionally important midfielder for the biggest club in England, one of the best clubs in the world, and he could easily be the difference between winning the league and not, but he's not one of the best midfielders in the world?

finneh · 15th February 2012, 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Err... Fans only rave about defensive midfielders who do a good job. Something that all the above have done for their clubs over the last season or two. They're all good players. Carrick the best of the lot. Well, him or Song.

You'll struggle to find fans raving about their deep-lying midfielders when their team is getting humped on a regular basis.

Of course they only rave about ones who do a good job, but there is a massive difference between a player who does a good job and a great player.

If you had a winger who merely did a good job they wouldn't receive anywhere near as much recognition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_Nick

So he's an exceptionally important midfielder for the biggest club in England, one of the best clubs in the world, and he could easily be the difference between winning the league and not, but he's not one of the best midfielders in the world?

He's exceptionally important to our team and could be the difference because he is the only one in our squad who can do that job. Without him there is a gaping hole in our already poor central midfield that would need filling. For instance Iniesta is a far, far superior player, but would be less important to Barcelona as if he were injured they have Xavi, Fabregas, Busquets etc to play in the middle.

Only a truly deluded person would say Carrick is one of the best midfielders in the world.

Pogue Mahone · 15th February 2012, 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by finneh

Of course they only rave about ones who do a good job, but there is a massive difference between a player who does a good job and a great player.

If you had a winger who merely did a good job they wouldn't receive anywhere near as much recognition.

You seem to be implying that the role Carrick plays is one that really catches the eye of fans, attracting recognition and praise that players in other, more attacking, positions won't get.

I think you'll find the exact opposite is true.

I'm always right · 15th February 2012, 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by kietotheworld

What is Sir Alex Ferguson's stance on Carrick Vs. Barry?

Well considering he paid how much for Carrick again?

And he showed how much interest in Barry who went for how much was it?

adexkola · 15th February 2012, 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walrus

Let's get realistic. Carrick has looked good this season but has looked poor for the last two. I can't believe the amount of "class is permanent" type posts we are getting when last summer a lot of people wanted him sold, and pretty much everyone agreed (and still do) that we needed to strengthen central midfield.

Carrick has his role to play and whilst he also relies on having a good partner in the middle, and in a 4-4-2 we can't afford the luxury players like sneijder and nasri in the middle, Carrick was never exactly setting the world alight even within his more limited role in the side. He was in poor form, he is now in good form, not really much cause for debate is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.suave

Dunno what the argument is here because I can't really be bothered to go back and read beyond this page, but are people suggesting that Carrick didn't in fact go through a prolonged spell of awful form?

He was (rightly) criticised by United fans because he was playing way below the standards he set for himself during his first few seasons at Old Trafford. Sure, he usually adds something to the team, even on his off days, but his form was pretty much shite up until about October. Are people disputing this?

Since then, he's looked like the Carrick of old and, once again, actually appears to possess set of bollocks, playing with drive and attempting passes that he was shying away from just a few months ago.

This.

kietotheworld · 15th February 2012, 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood

Well considering he paid how much for Carrick again?

And he showed how much interest in Barry who went for how much was it?

That's hardly a direct choice, like Capello had, is it? Ferguson didn't show interest in Xavi or Iniesta either, that doesn't mean that Carrick is better than them as well. Carrick fit the bill for us because his particular style complemented Scholes', while Barry's wouldn't necessarily have done so as well. Carrick also wanted to move at the time, whereas Barry had been at Villa for 9 years and seemed quite happy to stay.

If Carrick is as good as some people make him out to be on here, pissing on every midfield in Europe bar one, then either Barry is almost as good as him or Capello is a complete fool and moron, which his record suggests he isn't.

finneh · 15th February 2012, 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

You seem to be implying that the role Carrick plays is one that really catches the eye of fans, attracting recognition and praise that players in other, more attacking, positions won't get.

I think you'll find the exact opposite is true.

I'm implying that the job of the likes of Tiote, Lucas, Song, Carrick etc is one that English fans particularly find impressive. The hard-working protector role.

This is why I think that a lot of fans on here can't accept that he wasn't a really good player for 2.5 years. The amount of posts to the effect of "how can a mediocre player win x trophies", or "how come he plays x games for us if he's only average", or "he's always the scapegoat".

The fact is he was never a scapegoat and is now getting all the plaudits that top performances deserve.

Feed Me · 15th February 2012, 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Uppercut

You think Carrick is one of the best midfielders in the world?

When he's at it, there aren't many out there who fulfil the role Carrick does to a better standard.

Lance Uppercut · 15th February 2012, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feed Me

When he's at it, there aren't many out there who fulfil the role Carrick does to a better standard.

I consider him to be a very good player, but I would never claim him to be one of the best in the world. Still, opinions and all that.

I'm always right · 15th February 2012, 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by kietotheworld

That's hardly a direct choice, like Capello had, is it? Ferguson didn't show interest in Xavi or Iniesta either, that doesn't mean that Carrick is better than them as well.

No, that's because:

a) they'd cost at least 5-6 times as much as Carrick
b) their club wouldn't sell
c) they wouldn't come

Quote:

Originally Posted by kietotheworld

Carrick fit the bill for us because his particular style complemented Scholes', while Barry's wouldn't necessarily have done so as well. Carrick also wanted to move at the time, whereas Barry had been at Villa for 9 years and seemed quite happy to stay.

Carrick and Barry play a very similar role, so they would both "fit the bill". Was Barry "happy" at Villa? The first interest shown in him from a half decent team (Liverpool) and he was desperate to leave.

Basically you're talking rubbish. Had SAF rated Barry over Carrick, he would've bought him, certainly, especially as he loves a buy to piss the scousers off.

I'm always right · 15th February 2012, 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by finneh

This is why I think that a lot of fans on here can't accept that he wasn't a really good player for 2.5 years.

2.5 years

Rado_N · 15th February 2012, 13:30

It's comments like that that make discussing Carrick incredibly frustrating.

Brwned · 15th February 2012, 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by finneh

It's also important to note how every teams' fans massively overrate the player that shields the back four. Every Arsenal fan raves about Song being on another level, every Spurs fan raves about Sandro/Parker, every Liverpool fan now raves about Lucas and every Newcastle fan raves about Tiote.

I don't agree they massively overrate them nor do I believe them to be the kind of player that English fans find particularly impressive, but I agree with the general point; Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, City and United fans generally think they have the best defensive midfielder in the league while they're happy to dismiss the idea that the other players are as good or better, when really they're all at a similar level.

KM · 15th February 2012, 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by kietotheworld

That's hardly a direct choice, like Capello had, is it? Ferguson didn't show interest in Xavi or Iniesta either, that doesn't mean that Carrick is better than them as well. Carrick fit the bill for us because his particular style complemented Scholes', while Barry's wouldn't necessarily have done so as well. Carrick also wanted to move at the time, whereas Barry had been at Villa for 9 years and seemed quite happy to stay.

If Carrick is as good as some people make him out to be on here, pissing on every midfield in Europe bar one, then either Barry is almost as good as him or Capello is a complete fool and moron, which his record suggests he isn't.

So not trying to sign Barry(when he was available and was clearly looking to move to a CL club)= Not trying to sign Xavi or Iniesta.

Well done.

KM · 15th February 2012, 14:58

I think as the time moves on, people will argue that Carrick has never performed above an average level ever since he has been here. 2.5 years

Smores · 15th February 2012, 15:02

The amount of bullshit people will spout just so they don't have to admit they were wrong

Widnes · 15th February 2012, 15:05

I'm sure I read a quote from Xavi once that he was close to signing for us but decided to stay at Barca, was probably before carrick though.

Cina · 15th February 2012, 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feed Me

At his best, as he is now, he's one of the best in the world.

for fuck sake

Eriku · 15th February 2012, 15:59

Who the hell would rather have Barry?!

Pogue Mahone · 15th February 2012, 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwned

I don't agree they massively overrate them nor do I believe them to be the kind of player that English fans find particularly impressive, but I agree with the general point; Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, City and United fans generally think they have the best defensive midfielder in the league while they're happy to dismiss the idea that the other players are as good or better, when really they're all at a similar level.

You think?

CnutOfAllCnuts · 15th February 2012, 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Uppercut

You think Carrick is one of the best midfielders in the world?

I don't, but one of the most underrated.

Always said there isn't much between Carrick and Alonso for example.

RedDevilCanuck · 15th February 2012, 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by kietotheworld

That's just not true at all, the vast majority of the criticism came before the 2nd CL Final, and had dried up in the months leading up to it, coincidentally when he actually started to play well. I agree that he took perhaps too much stick after the first one, but it did show beyond any serious doubt that he's not a player in the very top bracket of central midfielders. If we accept that he took too much criticism though, that's not a reason to shield him from everything else, or ignore the other performances that he's been criticised for.

Rather than a Champions League Final though, there was a lot of criticism of him last year, not for failing to best Xavi and Iniesta, but for failing to best Barry Bannan and Jonathan Hogg, for being poor against Southampton, for having a shocker against Gerrard, Lucas and Meireles. The previous season he was appalling against Bayern Munich in the Champions League Quarter Final, not to mention an awful performance against Milan in the previous round which culminated in a dismissal.

Saying that, your theory might be accurate, if you hold that it is, there are still a couple of things that puzzle me though, maybe you can help. Why, if Carrick has pissed on every other midfield he's faced in Europe, has he been constantly overlooked as a top player? Not just by the media, not just by football fans, but by Fabio Capello? Let's not forget, Capello is one of the world's foremost football managers, with a list of honours as long as your arm. Did this managerial great ignore Carrick for the vast majority of his England career purely because of one game in Rome, despite him dominating against virtually every midfield he faced?

Capello picked Heskey to go to a World Cup. Capello made some catastrophic selelctions and not picking Carrick was one of them.

Who cares if the media over looks him as a top player. The media are a bunch of idiots. Fergie rates Carrick as a top player because he plays him ini every-single fuckin big game we have.

And if you do value media praise well Carrick has gotten great praise by the Italian media after his countless top performances against Italian sides.

Carrick was patchy last season. But you failed to mention his midfield partners during this time - Scholes on his last legs, Fletcher playing with an absolutely terrible disease, Hargreaves not being there, Anderson being injured/inconsistent. Then he gets settled with Giggs and dominates Chelsea 3 times and helps us to a league title and yet another CL Final.

We have dominated Europe since Carrick got here. This is not a coincidence. Carrick is a World Class midfielder.

He is just easy to pick on due to his painfully average personality and calm and collective approach to his game. If he ran around like Gattuso many fans on here would see him as some cult hero or something.

Carrick is a fantastic talent, just too bad his talents don't resonate that much in England.

gooDevil · 15th February 2012, 16:30

How many central midfielders are clearly better than Carrick?

Xavi
Iniesta
Fabregas
Modric...
Alonso?

If Carrick is somewhere in the 5-8 that makes him one of the best midfielders in the world, no?

Adebesi · 15th February 2012, 16:31

It is interesting though that it isnt just Capello that has overlooked him for England, is it?

But I am sure if it was a choice between having the recognition of the last 3 England managers, England fans in general and the media on the one hand, or his collection of medals and the trust of SAF on the other, he is happy with what he has got.

Brwned · 15th February 2012, 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

You think?

I'm not really sure whether you're being sarcastic or not? I don't think there's much to separate them in truth, they all have their own fairly distinct styles and strengths which are well suited to the teams they're in but when it comes down to it there's not a whole lot between them. Of all the top clubs the only one that I see that stands out is Busquets. Sandro's got a little bit to go maybe but he's got youth on his side and certainly appears a top-level midfielder, Lucas is still improving year on year and he could easily make himself a key part of a successful Brazil side in the coming years (possibly alongside Sandro), Song's not perfect but is very influential and would improve the majority of sides, Barry's the least impressive of them all but he's really fitted in amongst better players and keeps things ticking along nicely. I don't think I'd complain if we had any of these players to be honest, although naturally I prefer Carrick because of his passing game.

Interval Level · 15th February 2012, 16:33

Surprise. People can't differentiate between periods of poor form and poor quality. All through the last 'average' 2 years, he has had some good spells and some poor.

This, post Ronaldo era when our team wasn't as glamorous. Focus went to midfield and surprisingly a player who doesn't wow the fans was made a scapegoat. Such that, everytime he had a bad spell, spastics came out in full force conveniently erasing his good spell.

Lance Uppercut · 15th February 2012, 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooDevil

How many central midfielders are clearly better than Carrick?

Xavi
Iniesta
Fabregas
Modric...
Alonso?

If Carrick is somewhere in the 5-8 that makes him one of the best midfielders in the world, no?

In world football, those are the only names you could come up with that are clearly better than Carrick?

Cina · 15th February 2012, 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooDevil

How many central midfielders are clearly better than Carrick?

Xavi
Iniesta
Fabregas
Modric...
Alonso?

If Carrick is somewhere in the 5-8 that makes him one of the best midfielders in the world, no?

Yaya
Schweinstiger
Silva
Busquests (basically a far superior version of Carrick)
Sneijder

That's 10 and I haven't even ventured away from the obvious. No way is he one of the world best. Absolute madness.

Pexbo · 15th February 2012, 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Uppercut

In world football, those are the only names you could come up with that are clearly better than Carrick?

I think "proven" better would be a better turn of phrase.

As a first choice centre mid with us, Carrick has won 4 Premier League medals, a European Cup along with 2 Runnerup Medals, a World Club Cup and a League Cup.

You don't win all that over 5 seasons, as a first choice midfielder without being one of the best in the world.

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15th February 2012, 10:40	#4324 (permalink)
mr.suave Reserve Team Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Seoul via Manchester Posts: 1,701	Ha OK... then this time we'll have to agree to disagree.

15th February 2012, 10:41	#4325 (permalink)
ben_foster On Loan to Watford Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,256	op....your mate looks a bit of a twat doesnt he? dont think tosic has played in 3 champions league finals, winning one. nor does he have 4 out of 5 league titles (potentially 5 out of 6) nor is a he a front runner for player of the year this year. always said our midfield problem is eased by carrick and not caused by him. imagine how could he can be with a top qaulity partner........as he was in 2007 with scholesy.

15th February 2012, 11:53	#4327 (permalink)
I'm always right Banned Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Mêlée Island Posts: 15,933	Fabio Capello ♥ Gareth Barry. I'll settle for Sir Alex Ferguson's stance on the matter thanks kie. SAF > Capello

15th February 2012, 12:29	#4329 (permalink)
finneh Reserve Team Player Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,371	It's also important to note how every teams' fans massively overrate the player that shields the back four. Every Arsenal fan raves about Song being on another level, every Spurs fan raves about Sandro/Parker, every Liverpool fan now raves about Lucas and every Newcastle fan raves about Tiote. The truth is Carrick is not one of the best midfielders in the world and never will be, just like Parker & Lucas won't be. When on form as he currently is however he is exceptionally important to the team and could easily be the difference between winning the league and not winning it this year.

15th February 2012, 13:30	#4343 (permalink)
Rado_N Came from nowhere, yet still a better modmin than Weaste ever was Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: mishy gishy gushy gushy mishy meshy mushy, motherfucker Posts: 45,364	It's comments like that that make discussing Carrick incredibly frustrating.

15th February 2012, 14:58	#4346 (permalink)
KM Coach Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 24,082	I think as the time moves on, people will argue that Carrick has never performed above an average level ever since he has been here. 2.5 years

15th February 2012, 15:02	#4347 (permalink)
Smores First Team Sub Join Date: May 2011 Location: Dark side of the moon Posts: 6,960	The amount of bullshit people will spout just so they don't have to admit they were wrong

15th February 2012, 15:05	#4348 (permalink)
Widnes Reserve Team Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Widnes Posts: 2,536	I'm sure I read a quote from Xavi once that he was close to signing for us but decided to stay at Barca, was probably before carrick though.

15th February 2012, 15:59	#4350 (permalink)
Eriku First Team Sub Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Ørsta, Norway Posts: 8,659	Who the hell would rather have Barry?!

15th February 2012, 16:30	#4354 (permalink)
gooDevil Worst scout ever Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: The Kids are the Future Posts: 16,950	How many central midfielders are clearly better than Carrick? Xavi Iniesta Fabregas Modric... Alonso? If Carrick is somewhere in the 5-8 that makes him one of the best midfielders in the world, no?

15th February 2012, 16:31	#4355 (permalink)
Adebesi First Team Sub Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Sanctity, like a cat, abhors filth. Posts: 8,420	It is interesting though that it isnt just Capello that has overlooked him for England, is it? But I am sure if it was a choice between having the recognition of the last 3 England managers, England fans in general and the media on the one hand, or his collection of medals and the trust of SAF on the other, he is happy with what he has got.

15th February 2012, 16:33	#4357 (permalink)
Interval Level First Team Sub Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Oh Teddy Teddy Posts: 7,085	Surprise. People can't differentiate between periods of poor form and poor quality. All through the last 'average' 2 years, he has had some good spells and some poor. This, post Ronaldo era when our team wasn't as glamorous. Focus went to midfield and surprisingly a player who doesn't wow the fans was made a scapegoat. Such that, everytime he had a bad spell, spastics came out in full force conveniently erasing his good spell.