Alas poor Carrick...forsooth, he's quite good now!

Pexbo · 15th February 2012, 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Uppercut

Don't answer a question with a question.

The rhetoric made it a statement.

amolbhatia100 · 15th February 2012, 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by CnutOfAllCnuts

Dunno whether you are guilty of underrating Carrick or overrating those two.

Alonso is better than Carrick and has always been.

Lance Uppercut · 15th February 2012, 18:23

Quote:

Ballon d'Or 2011:

Éric Abidal (France), Sergio Agüero (Argentina), Karim Benzema (France), Iker Casillas (Spain), Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal), Dani Alves (Brazil), Samuel Eto’o (Cameroon), Cesc Fàbregas (Spain), Diego Forlán (Uruguay), Andrés Iniesta (Spain), Lionel Messi (Argentina), Thomas Müller (Germany), Nani (Portugal), Neymar (Brazil), Mesut Özil (Germany), Gerard Piqué (Spain), Wayne Rooney (England), Bastian Schweinsteiger (Germany), Wesley Sneijder (Netherlands), Luis Suárez (Uruguay), David Villa (Spain), Xabi Alonso (Spain), Xavi (Spain).

Quote:

2010

Xabi Alonso (Spain), Daniel Alves (Brazil), Iker Casillas (Spain), Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal), Didier Drogba (Ivory Coast), Samuel Eto'o (Cameroon), Cesc Fábregas (Spain), Diego Forlán (Uruguay), Asamoah Gyan (Ghana), Andrés Iniesta (Spain), Júlio César (Brazil), Miroslav Klose (Germany), Philipp Lahm (Germany), Maicon (Brazil), Lionel Messi (Argentina), Thomas Müller (Germany), Mesut Ozil (Germany), Carles Puyol (Spain), Arjen Robben (Holland), Bastian Schweinsteiger (Germany), Wesley Sneijder (Holland), David Villa (Spain), Xavi (Spain).

Quote:

2009

Andrey Arshavin (Arsenal), Karim Benzema (Real Madrid), Iker Casillas (Real Madrid), Cristiano Ronaldo (Real Madrid), Diego (Juventus), Didier Drogba (Chelsea), Edin Dzeko (Wolfsburg), Samuel Eto'o (Inter Milan), Cesc Fabregas (Arsenal), Fernando Torres (Liverpool), Diego Forlan (Atletico Madrid), Steven Gerrard (Liverpool), Ryan Giggs (Manchester United), Yoann Gourcuff (Bordeaux), Thierry Henry (Barcelona), Zlatan Ibrahimovic (Barcelona)
Andres Iniesta (Barcelona), Julio Cesar (Inter Milan), Kaka (Real Madrid), Frank Lampard (Chelsea), Maicon (Inter Milan), Lionel Messi (Barcelona), Luis Fabiano (Sevilla), Franck Ribery (Bayern Munich), Wayne Rooney (Manchester United), John Terry (Chelsea), Nemanja Vidic (Manchester United) , David Villa (Valencia), Xavi (Barcelona), Yaya Toure (Barcelona)

Not nominated once, as far as I can see.

amolbhatia100 · 15th February 2012, 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance Uppercut

I don't agree with that logic at all. Nor do I believe Carrick is one of the best midfielders in the world. As has been mentioned, he has been overlooked by three England managers now.

If you said to a non United fan that Carrick is one of the best MF players in the world I think they would laugh in your face.

Agree with this.

Cina · 15th February 2012, 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by CnutOfAllCnuts

Dunno whether you are guilty of underrating Carrick or overrating those two.

Dunno whether you're guilty of overrating Carrick or underrating those 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amolbhatia100

Alonso is better than Carrick and has always been.

Yeah most definitely. In the last 5 years he's been a mile ahead, but I'm sure people will disagree because he's not won what Carrick has.

Lance Uppercut · 15th February 2012, 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pexbo

The rhetoric made it a statement.

No, it didn't. But you clearly don't want to answer me for obvious reasons so we can leave it here, if you like.

I'm always right · 15th February 2012, 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by kietotheworld

Alright, fine, let's accept the proposition that Ferguson had a straight choice between Carrick and Barry, and he selected Barry. All this means is that Ferguson thought Carrick superior to Barry in 2006. Capello is another well respected football manager, in the same bracket as Ferguson in that regard, and since he took over in 2008, he's consistently selected Gareth Barry ahead of Carrick, I think his opinion should certainly be taken into account when looking at this, given his track record.

I should be clear, I'm not seeking to prove that Barry is a better player than Carrick, I actually think Carrick is better than him, but there's an entirely
unfair picture that's been built up here - the picture that Carrick pisses all over virtually every midfield in Europe, but gets over looked because of two poor games. I'd like to know how anyone can square him having such an exceptional level of quality with Capello picking Gareth Barry ahead of him. Is Gareth Barry equally good, is he of a similar level and better suited to the England side, or is Capello just a moron?

My reply....

Chabon · 15th February 2012, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cina

Yeah most definitely. In the last 5 years he's been a mile ahead, but I'm sure people will disagree because he's not won what Carrick has.

Prior to his fantastic last season for Liverpool, Alonso was distinctly crap and had been for a couple of years. Anyone who'd said he was better than Carrick then would have looked mildly mentally disturbed.

Other than that I've no interest in this current nonsensical debate, as it invariably devolves into idiots claiming that David Silva is a better CM than Michael Carrick, which is about as meaningless a comparison as you're likely to see. In the role he plays, Carrick is one of the best in the world. Only Busquets is definitely better than him. and that's really not a very controversial statement. Tbh, it would help these kinds of debates if someone would come up with a big list of comparable players, but I can't be arsed.

edit: Oh and it should go without saying that people mentioning Gareth Barry can fuck right off, there's a reason that clodhopper has only played four times in the champions league despite being 31.

CnutOfAllCnuts · 15th February 2012, 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by amolbhatia100

Alonso is better than Carrick and has always been.

Is he though?

Cina · 15th February 2012, 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chabon

Prior to his fantastic last season for Liverpool, Alonso was distinctly crap and had been for a couple of years. Anyone who'd said he was better than Carrick then would have looked mildly mentally disturbed.

Erm ok then, the last 4 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CnutOfAllCnuts

Is he though?

Yes, though I take your opinions with a pinch of salt seeing as your red tinted specs are bigger than anyone else on this board.

Pogue Mahone · 15th February 2012, 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwned

I'm not really sure whether you're being sarcastic or not? I don't think there's much to separate them in truth, they all have their own fairly distinct styles and strengths which are well suited to the teams they're in but when it comes down to it there's not a whole lot between them. Of all the top clubs the only one that I see that stands out is Busquets. Sandro's got a little bit to go maybe but he's got youth on his side and certainly appears a top-level midfielder, Lucas is still improving year on year and he could easily make himself a key part of a successful Brazil side in the coming years (possibly alongside Sandro), Song's not perfect but is very influential and would improve the majority of sides, Barry's the least impressive of them all but he's really fitted in amongst better players and keeps things ticking along nicely. I don't think I'd complain if we had any of these players to be honest, although naturally I prefer Carrick because of his passing game.

Ah. I misunderstood you.

I thought by "the other players" you meant the other holding midfielders in the league.

Mind you, I would disagree that all the players you just mentioned are on a level. Lucas and Sandros have great engines and bags of potential but nothing like the vision and ability to pick a pass that Carrick and Song have. As for Parker, i just hate watching him play. He's such a negative player. An older, slower, English Mascherano. Effective though.

Who've I forgotten? Oh yeah, Barry. Does most things the others do but not quite as well. Well-rounded, consistent and dull.

KM · 15th February 2012, 19:06

Carrick plays a whole different role to Silva, in his role I think only Alonso and Busquets are better than him.

Pogue Mahone · 15th February 2012, 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by KM

Carrick plays a whole different role to Silva, in his role I think only Alonso and Busquets is better than him.

Yeah, I'd go with that.

Might be random johnny foreigners who are up there but i never watch continental football other than CL games.

gooDevil · 15th February 2012, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cina

Yaya
Schweinstiger
Silva
Busquests (basically a far superior version of Carrick)
Sneijder

That's 10 and I haven't even ventured away from the obvious. No way is he one of the world best. Absolute madness.

Sneijder and Silva aren't central midfielders, the other 3 I probably agree are better than Carrick in that position.

The cut off is a bit arbitrary, but if you want to say Carrick is in the 2nd tier of CMs with Parker, Alonso and Barry beneath 8-10 other guys that's reasonable enough. But you could also put him at the end of the best group. He does have some impressive achievements to his name.

Ash_G · 15th February 2012, 19:09

Alonso is but not by much, I don't think busquets is. I think you could quite easily swap carrick in and not notice a difference except that there was one less cunt on the pitch.

KM · 15th February 2012, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_G

Alonso is but not by much, I don't think busquets is. I think you could quite easily swap carrick in and not notice a difference except that there was one less cunt on the pitch.

Disagree, Busquets is fucking world class. I would love to have him here.

gooDevil · 15th February 2012, 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chabon

Prior to his fantastic last season for Liverpool, Alonso was distinctly crap and had been for a couple of years. Anyone who'd said he was better than Carrick then would have looked mildly mentally disturbed.

I'm not expert on Liverpool but I disagree from what I've seen. It's no wonder they fell apart after he left, I think he was quite good even before that last season there, where he definitely got even better. Players like Alonso and Carrick are highly underrated, imho, because it's so much harder to appreciate a midfielder who dictates play and tempo than a speedster or a power player.

Ash_G · 15th February 2012, 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by KM

Disagree, Busquets is fucking world class. I would love to have him here.

He is quality but I don't think he's any better. That said he is a lot younger so could easily become better. Don't think you could say there's much between them at the moment.

KM · 15th February 2012, 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooDevil

I'm not expert on Liverpool but I disagree from what I've seen. It's no wonder they fell apart after he left, I think he was quite good even before that last season there, where he definitely got even better. Players like Alonso and Carrick are highly underrated, imho, because it's so much harder to appreciate a midfielder who dictates play and tempo than a speedster or a power player.

He is right buddy, Alonso was definitely underwhelming for at least a season which was partially the reason why Rafa tried to flog him off and tried to sign Barry. He was brilliant in the season in which they came second.

Cina · 15th February 2012, 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_G

Alonso is but not by much, I don't think busquets is. I think you could quite easily swap carrick in and not notice a difference except that there was one less cunt on the pitch.

Have you ever seen him play? He's a mile better than Carrick and everyone else in that role. Jesus.

Varun_Utd · 15th February 2012, 19:20

Busquets is quite comfortably the best at the position. Think him being a cunt is clouding judgements here. Alonso 2nd. They are a level above the rest which is where carrick comes in.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 15th February 2012, 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brosstan

Bullshit. He just lacked a proper partner. ......

Dumbest excuse ever. Carrick's effectiveness has never ever relied on the type of partner he has.

Cina · 15th February 2012, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varun_Utd

Busquets is quite comfortably the best at the position. Think him being a cunt is clouding judgements here. Alonso 2nd. They are a level above the rest which is where carrick comes in.

It's genuinely baffling to see people saying Carrick is as good/better than him, this forum has reached a new level of knee-jerking ridiculousness.

Smores · 15th February 2012, 19:27

The problem is there aren't many other midfielders out there that play Carrick's role and when they do they nearly always play in a midfield 3 rather than 2. I find it hard to compare Busquets and Carrick as one plays in a significantly better midfield with extra help from his midfield partners and the defence, in all I don't there's a huge difference.

Our system has it's own requirements and for me Carrick fits what we need in midfield perfectly.

Ash_G · 15th February 2012, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cina

Have you ever seen him play? He's a mile better than Carrick and everyone else in that role. Jesus.

Must be doing something amazing i'm missing then. I don't see him being better, he's definitely playing in a better team, but as for ability and what he brings I don't see it. also I'd take alonso over him in the sitting role.

Cina · 15th February 2012, 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooDevil

Sneijder and Silva aren't central midfielders, the other 3 I probably agree are better than Carrick in that position.

The cut off is a bit arbitrary, but if you want to say Carrick is in the 2nd tier of CMs with Parker, Alonso and Barry beneath 8-10 other guys that's reasonable enough. But you could also put him at the end of the best group. He does have some impressive achievements to his name.

Not this shite again. Just because a player doesn't naturally operate in a 4-4-2 doesn't mean he isn't a central midfielder. It's like saying Rooney isn't a striker because he plays deeper than others.

Cina · 15th February 2012, 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_G

Must be doing something amazing i'm missing then. I don't see him being better, he's definitely playing in a better team, but as for ability and what he brings I don't see it. also I'd take alonso over him in the sitting role.

Better touch, better pass, better tackler, better interceptor, better control, never ever makes mistakes. Just because he doesn't play the creative balls like Xavi/Iniesta doesn't mean he lacks skills. He's far superior. The best in the world at what he does, Alonso included.

Ash_G · 15th February 2012, 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smores

The problem is there aren't many other midfielders out there that play Carrick's role and when they do they nearly always play in a midfield 3 rather than 2. I find it hard to compare Busquets and Carrick as one plays in a significantly better midfield with extra help from his midfield partners and the defence, in all I don't there's a huge difference.

Our system has it's own requirements and for me Carrick fits what we need in midfield perfectly.

Exactly when you're comparing between formations it's always hard. I don't think carrick would look any worse than busquets or any less capable playing in the system and team that busquets does. I've not see lots of busquets going forward but I'm sure if he was given a similar role to carrick he would do as well too. But I don't think he would do it better.

Varun_Utd · 15th February 2012, 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cina

It's genuinely baffling to see people saying Carrick is as good/better than him, this forum has reached a new level of knee-jerking ridiculousness.

I said this in my first response to pogue bumping the thread.

The bashing and the praise by most fans, not just on this forum, is always quite ridiculous.

He's not better than busquets now when he's having a great spell and he was never not good enough for us when he was having a bad patch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smores

The problem is there aren't many other midfielders out there that play Carrick's role and when they do they nearly always play in a midfield 3 rather than 2. I find it hard to compare Busquets and Carrick as one plays in a significantly better midfield with extra help from his midfield partners and the defence, in all I don't there's a huge difference.

Our system has it's own requirements and for me Carrick fits what we need in midfield perfectly.

Naah, not really. the help carrick gets in our midfield isnt in any way less than what busquets gets at barca. Its not just about us playing a middle 2 and them a middle 3, look at how both teams set up. We defend as a unit, even the wingers tucking in to help out.

Its just that busquets is quite simply a younger and better version of carrick. no shame in that though as he's the best in the world at the position. Carrick would come in the 2nd tier quite some way behind busquets and a bit behind alonso. None other comes to mind as being better than him.

Varun_Utd · 15th February 2012, 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_G

Exactly when you're comparing between formations it's always hard. I don't think carrick would look any worse than busquets or any less capable playing in the system and team that busquets does. I've not see lots of busquets going forward but I'm sure if he was given a similar role to carrick he would do as well too. But I don't think he would do it better.

He'd both protect our defense better and start up quick attacks better than carrick imo. see him as the more intelligent player and also the better dribbler, interceptor and has the better touch too. Just the better player for me.

Cina · 15th February 2012, 19:36

I'd take Busquets ahead of Carrick in a heartbeat (if he wasn't such a cunt)

Ash_G · 15th February 2012, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cina

Better touch, better pass, better tackler, better interceptor, better control, never ever makes mistakes. Just because he doesn't play the creative balls like Xavi/Iniesta doesn't mean he lacks skills. He's far superior. The best in the world at what he does, Alonso included.

I just don't agree. Touch I'll give you he's excellent technically. I don't see him as a better interceptor but then we've rarely seen carrick in that role. All I can say is playing in a two carrick makes fantastic interceptions and if he was playing in that same system as busquets I think he could do it superbly. Passing I don't see it at all. Attacking wise i'd give it to carrick purely cause I can't recall that much of busquets going forward. He is though a lot more consistent.

Brwned · 15th February 2012, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cina

It's genuinely baffling to see people saying Carrick is as good/better than him, this forum has reached a new level of knee-jerking ridiculousness.

That's not kneejerk that's what the same posters were saying before Carrick's great form this year. It's just a difference of opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cina

Not this shite again. Just because a player doesn't naturally operate in a 4-4-2 doesn't mean he isn't a central midfielder. It's like saying Rooney isn't a striker because he plays deeper than others.

It's more like saying Rooney's a midfielder, surely? Silva plays in the same position and has always played ahead of the midfield just like Rooney is now.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 15th February 2012, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooDevil

I'm sorry, but I'll never understand how Capello starts Barry ahead of Carrick. Not only that, Capello rarely has Carrick on the bench!.....

Carrick never did enough to ever deserved being picked ahead of Barry during Capello's reign. Even when handed the chance.

That was also all down to Carrick's form at the time.

amolbhatia100 · 15th February 2012, 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by CnutOfAllCnuts

Is he though?

Yes. He's quality. And consistent.

Cina · 15th February 2012, 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_G

I just don't agree. Touch I'll give you he's excellent technically. I don't see him as a better interceptor but then we've rarely seen carrick in that role. All I can say is playing in a two carrick makes fantastic interceptions and if he was playing in that same system as busquets I think he could do it superbly. Passing I don't see it at all. Attacking wise i'd give it to carrick purely cause I can't recall that much of busquets going forward. He is though a lot more consistent.

They key fabric above all else, consistency.

Also what? Never see Carrick in that role?

You must not even watch him play.

You're so wrong though, you really are. Watch the final last year or any game against Real and you'll see the difference. 95% of football fans across the globe would say Busquets is miles better, as would any pundit out there. It's just a fucking facade to claim Carrick as being better than him, or even in any way as good as him.

Cina · 15th February 2012, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwned

That's not kneejerk that's what the same posters were saying before Carrick's great form this year. It's just a difference of opinion.

People actually said Carrick was better than Busquets? I struggle to believe more than 2 or 3 people did. Do you think he's as good as him Bwned?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwned

It's more like saying Rooney's a midfielder, surely? Silva plays in the same position and has always played ahead of the midfield just like Rooney is now.

Same thing, different phrasing. Silva is a central midfielder who operates in an attacking role.

Ash_G · 15th February 2012, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varun_Utd

He'd both protect our defense better and start up quick attacks better than carrick imo. see him as the more intelligent player and also the better dribbler, interceptor and has the better touch too. Just the better player for me.

I don't think he would. Remember carricks role for us demands him to be. Lot more adventurous then busquets role does. As I said its hard to compare as they play different systems but I don't think busquets is in any way a much better player. Like I said I think carrick could comfortably play in the same role busquets does at barca. Just cause he plays for barca doesn't make him in a different class. He is undoubtedly a great player but I don't think he's better and if he is better then I don't think it's enough that you could say he's different class. He does however have time on his side and will likely become a better player.

Cina · 15th February 2012, 19:47

You can't judge a player based on the team he plays in. Judge him on the way he plays. It's purely hypothetical to suggest Carrick would be as good as Busquets at Barca or vice-versa.

Ash_G · 15th February 2012, 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cina

People actually said Carrick was better than Busquets? I struggle to believe more than 2 or 3 people did. Do you think he's as good as him Bwned?

Same thing, different phrasing. Silva is a central midfielder who operates in an attacking role.

Carricks role isn't purely as an interceptorl though that's the point. And he doesn't have another defensively savvy midfielder like xavi next to him. Makes a big difference.

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15th February 2012, 19:06	#4412 (permalink)
KM Coach Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 24,152	Carrick plays a whole different role to Silva, in his role I think only Alonso and Busquets are better than him.

15th February 2012, 19:09	#4415 (permalink)
Ash_G Reserve Team Player Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 4,631	Alonso is but not by much, I don't think busquets is. I think you could quite easily swap carrick in and not notice a difference except that there was one less cunt on the pitch.

15th February 2012, 19:20	#4421 (permalink)
Varun_Utd First Team Sub Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: New Delhi Posts: 9,009	Busquets is quite comfortably the best at the position. Think him being a cunt is clouding judgements here. Alonso 2nd. They are a level above the rest which is where carrick comes in.

15th February 2012, 19:27	#4424 (permalink)
Smores First Team Sub Join Date: May 2011 Location: Dark side of the moon Posts: 6,960	The problem is there aren't many other midfielders out there that play Carrick's role and when they do they nearly always play in a midfield 3 rather than 2. I find it hard to compare Busquets and Carrick as one plays in a significantly better midfield with extra help from his midfield partners and the defence, in all I don't there's a huge difference. Our system has it's own requirements and for me Carrick fits what we need in midfield perfectly.

15th February 2012, 19:36	#4431 (permalink)
Cina Love Nani, Hate Ando Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Bandwagon Posts: 24,148	I'd take Busquets ahead of Carrick in a heartbeat (if he wasn't such a cunt)

15th February 2012, 19:47	#4439 (permalink)
Cina Love Nani, Hate Ando Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Bandwagon Posts: 24,148	You can't judge a player based on the team he plays in. Judge him on the way he plays. It's purely hypothetical to suggest Carrick would be as good as Busquets at Barca or vice-versa.