All change of ownership and Red Knights related posts here please

Gunnar · 30th January 2010, 13:36

Renowned football finance expert Keith Harris is working with disgruntled Manchester United fans to try and broker a takeover of the club that would end the mounting debt problems imposed by the Glazer family.

Harris, a United fan who has been involved in several takeovers involving Premier League clubs, claims to have spoken to several interested parties as he attempts to put together a takeover proposal to put to the Glazers.

The executive chairman of investment bank Seymour Pierce began working on the project after being contacted by members of the Manchester United Supporters Trust.

"Yes, we have been approached," Harris told the BBC's Football Focus. "We can lend our weight to doing something for the good of United and for the good of football - none of the takeovers that I have been involved in have involved any debt.

"They've been takeovers by people who've wanted to be involved for reasons other than money."

Harris declined to name any of the people who have approached him, identifying them only as "The Red Knights".

"A number of people have been to see me and I've had long chats with them," he said.

"I know there are one or two people in senior positions in the financial services that have access to capital.

"We don't know if the Glazers can be made to listen, but there is serious intent on the part of people who have support in their hearts. The time feels right."

United hold debts of more than £700million - debts which are growing - as a result of the Glazers highly-leveraged takeover of the club in 2005.

While nothing new, the debts have recently re-emerged as a hot-button topic among supporters after the full extent of the growing problems were revealed when the club issued £500million worth of bonds in a re-financing effort.

Harris shares the anger of his fellow United supporters.

"(The Glazers) are playing with an icon of football, one of the most respected brands in the world, and it is in danger," he said.

"Seventy-five pence of every pound (fans) are spending is now going to the Glazers either for themselves or to pay debts."

"If these rumblings become a revolution and (fans) stop going - as difficult as it is for them not to go - and the pounds stop coming in, there is real peril."

When asked for comment by Football Focus, United issued a statement denying there are problems, stating that the club is "most profitable football club in the world".

A spokesman for the Glazer family told the programme they have no interest in selling.

But Harris believes they could be persuaded if the price was right.

"It depends on the Glazers' attitude but we've got to think that their businesses in America haven't done well - nobody's businesses in America have done well - and they're probably highly geared to those businesses.

"If this is an opportunity for them to take money and go then you have to think they would listen to that."

Crerand Legend · 30th January 2010, 13:39

Is there light at the end of the tunnel, lets hope so

RedMist99 · 30th January 2010, 13:48

Sounds quite promising.

Won't hold my breath though....

Clique · 30th January 2010, 13:52

So how much do you except this group has to come up for the Glazers to leave?

EdWeatherall · 30th January 2010, 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clique

So how much do you except this group has to come up for the Glazers to leave?

Noone really knows, I've always thought £1.2bn would be the figure

Clique · 30th January 2010, 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdWeatherall

Noone really knows, I've always thought £1.2bn would be the figure

a 450 million profit for them? considering the situation isn't that a bit much? most businessmen prefer to be quiet for it gets a lot more troubled if the finance is out.

i'm a optimistic fecker and i'm hoping 900 million does it.

GaryLifo · 30th January 2010, 14:03

I hate to be all negative, but there is no way the Glazers will sell the club unless there is a massive profit in it for them.

For this reason, this consortium is likely to fail as to be a non-debt takeoverthey will only be able to pay a sensible price.

esmufc12 · 30th January 2010, 14:04

Interview is here BBC Sport - Football - Keith Harris reveals interest in Man Utd takeover

Very good interview, and I agree with him that the time does feel right and momentum is building very quickly. If enough people can get on board and if we can be United in our efforts, we can make a difference. I've got a good feeling about this.

ralphie88 · 30th January 2010, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clique

So how much do you except this group has to come up for the Glazers to leave?

Who says there's only one consortium?

esmufc12 · 30th January 2010, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryLifo

I hate to be all negative, but there is no way the Glazers will sell the club unless there is a massive profit in it for them.

For this reason, this consortium is likely to fail as to be a non-debt takeoverthey will only be able to pay a sensible price.

I think it's fair to say the Global Financial Crisis is something the Glazer's never anticipated and is something that has cost them tens, if not hundreds, of millions of pounds. If they can get out with a small profit then they should, and probably will, accept.

As Harris said, their business in the US aren't doing too well at the moment. The money they'd get from the sale of United could help them with their businesses in the US.

WireRed · 30th January 2010, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clique

a 450 million profit for them? considering the situation isn't that a bit much? most businessmen prefer to be quiet for it gets a lot more troubled if the finance is out.

i'm a optimistic fecker and i'm hoping 900 million does it.

I think it'd take a bit more than that for them to sling their hook. They would want a significant profit in on their investment(I use that term loosely with them) and enough to cover their debts with a fair slice left for them to play with.

Clique · 30th January 2010, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryLifo

I hate to be all negative, but there is no way the Glazers will sell the club unless there is a massive profit in it for them.

For this reason, this consortium is likely to fail as to be a non-debt takeoverthey will only be able to pay a sensible price.

Thats were the fans come in. A disgruntled business consumer is a consumer not worth having. Surely the green and gold is the start of something bigger.

Clique · 30th January 2010, 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphie88

Who says there's only one consortium?

This group of consortium then. The question still stands though, how much do you think will make the Glazers grab and run, ralphie?

EdWeatherall · 30th January 2010, 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Aye, that's the harsh truth.

Probably

Especially if the Glazer stance persists that they aren't willing to sell.

And if it can be shown that the potential investors that MUST are bringing to the table are a clear improvement and the club will be in a significantly stronger financial position, then it will be the only real way the fans can show the Glazers that they want them to sell.

I guess the sooner an offer could materialise the better, as I'm sure some fans wouldn't go to the games, and ok, they've paid their money, so it doesn't really affect the Glazers right away, just shows that there would be a willingness to not renew season tickets...and that wouldn't be good for them

Crerand Legend · 30th January 2010, 14:21

Keith Harris's interview was obviously the opening shots to a take over bid. He knows however that getting the yanks to move may be the problem but he obviously has his finger on the pulse of the mood of the fans and he is prepared to use it

Moriarty · 30th January 2010, 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by WireRed

I think it'd take a bit more than that for them to sling their hook. They would want a significant profit in on their investment(I use that term loosely with them) and enough to cover their debts with a fair slice left for them to play with.

I know little about English company law but if the Glazers could take control the club with a leveraged takeover, why can't a similar action be taken against them? Can somebody please give me an answer in layman's terms? Thanks.

Twigginater · 30th January 2010, 14:27

This... sounds very promising.

Crerand Legend · 30th January 2010, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moriarty

I know little about English company law but if the Glazers could take control the club with a leveraged takeover, why can't a similar action be taken against them? Can somebody please give me an answer in layman's terms? Thanks.

When the Glazers took us over we were a PLC, the Glazers made us a privately owned company which is harder to buy out if the owners dont want that to happen. The only people that could force their hand would be the banks if they were worried

Pogue Mahone · 30th January 2010, 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moriarty

I know little about English company law but if the Glazers could take control the club with a leveraged takeover, why can't a similar action be taken against them? Can somebody please give me an answer in layman's terms? Thanks.

The leveraged bit is just about raising funds through borrowing.

The big difference between buying the club now and the Glazer takeover is that they could buy it out, but by bit, from lots of different shareholders at a number of different share prices. There was no one person, or group of people, with an ultimate decision on the value of the club.

Any takeover now would need to raise a lump sum which the Glazers would be willing to accept. Chances are it will need to be fecking huge, for them to make any profit.

Clique · 30th January 2010, 14:35

Ok this might sound a bit idiotic. But a question never the less.

Suppose the team which wants to takes over pays off the glazers profit whatever it may be. 300 million perhaps and then tackle the loans themselves at a later date.

It would if i'm correct need the loans to be transfered to the club.

Is that possible?

Reddevill · 30th January 2010, 14:50

Fingers crossed things will happen.

JayWalker · 30th January 2010, 14:59

Wasnt there a chinese consortium who bid 1.2 billion pounds (Or willing to bid) only to be rejected/shunned by the glazers ?

beardsleybob · 30th January 2010, 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clique

Ok this might sound a bit idiotic. But a question never the less.

Suppose the team which wants to takes over pays off the glazers profit whatever it may be. 300 million perhaps and then tackle the loans themselves at a later date.

It would if i'm correct need the loans to be transfered to the club.

Is that possible?

The club already has the loans in it's name. It's more a case of just repaying the debt to relieve the pressure. As who's to say this new consortium could handle the loans in a more efficient way than the Glazers.

EdWeatherall · 30th January 2010, 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayWalker

Wasnt there a chinese consortium willing to bid 1.2 billion pounds only to be rejected by the glazers ?

That was in the News of the World

Escobar · 30th January 2010, 15:07

Right now, anything than the Glazers sounds better. And since the investors are supposed to be United fans, I hope they will also act only in the best way for the club

I hope the Glazers sell. They wanna make a profit out of that? Get the fuck outta here!!! For what? Making 700M debt? Taking millions out of the club?

Rood · 30th January 2010, 15:34

Potential 'Red Knights':

1. Jim O'Neill
"Goldman Sachs' chief economist Jim O'Neill, a fan and former director of Manchester United, today said the £500 million of bonds the club issued last week were an unattractive investment."
Goldman Sachs' Jim O'Neill slams Glazer family's Manchester United bonds | Business

2. Paul Marshall
"Paul Marshall, co-founder of hedge fund Marshall Wace and a Manchester United fan, says its time for supporters to combine forces to return the club to the community - debt free."
Manchester United fans should buy the club, says hedge fund star Paul Marshall - Telegraph

3. Fred Done
"Fred Done, one of Manchester United's biggest fans in the business community, says he believes the club is too deep in debt and has declared that he will not be investing in the £500m bond issue launched by owners the Glazer family.
Done the 4th richest man in the North West along with brother Peter made his £510m fortune through the Betfred franchise, which is Manchester United's former official betting partner."
Fred Done: I wouldn't touch Manchester United bond issue with a barge pole - Crain's Manchester Business

To be honest, the fans can protest as much as they want but the Glazers probably dont give a shit. The only way to get them to go is for someone to come up with an offer that they can't refuse (probably £1bn+) so it is very encouraging to hear that some serious businessmen who are also fans might be looking to get involved.

charleysurf · 30th January 2010, 15:46

I'm probably being my usual pessimist self, but if something like this has not happened for Liverpool, who would be half the price of United, why would it happen for United? Between paying off the Glazers, and taking on the debt, it'll cost more than one and half billion to take over the club. And no fan-based consortium will get that together I'm afraid.

The Glazers are here until their hand is forced by the banks, and the bond issue probably gives them breathing space for another couple of years.

It's going to take the club going into administration, and being available at a knockdown price, to get rid of them IMO.

KingMinger22 · 30th January 2010, 16:05

If a bid was made, a good one, it would take a fans boycott and maybe the support of Fergie could help.

Also, I doubt the banks are that happy with the finances of the club. They could force the Glazers hand.

A 200 million profit for the Glazers and they would be insane not to take it.

KingMinger22 · 30th January 2010, 16:09

The club could be bought for 600 million if the 500 million debt is took on

KingMinger22 · 30th January 2010, 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by beardsleybob

The club already has the loans in it's name. It's more a case of just repaying the debt to relieve the pressure. As who's to say this new consortium could handle the loans in a more efficient way than the Glazers.

Well if the PIKs were gone the 500 million is manageable

ralphie88 · 30th January 2010, 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by charleysurf

I'm probably being my usual pessimist self, but if something like this has not happened for Liverpool, who would be half the price of United, why would it happen for United?

Well ShareLiverpool and SOS don't have the experience, contacts or media impact that MUST does.

theimperialinn · 30th January 2010, 17:30

I reckon if this consortium offered the Glazers an exit strategy where they could cut and run with a modest profit they may take it.

Crerand Legend · 30th January 2010, 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by theimperialinn

I reckon if this consortium offered the Glazers an exit strategy where they could cut and run with a modest profit they may take it.

Dont know they are thick skinned buggers

theimperialinn · 30th January 2010, 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crerand Legend

Dont know they are thick skinned buggers

We can but dream!

charleysurf · 30th January 2010, 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphie88

Well ShareLiverpool and SOS don't have the experience, contacts or media impact that MUST does.

We'll see what comes of it. It'd be really cool if it did happen, and its well worth trying, but it just sounds unlikely. Where were these mega-rich guys with Uniteds interests at heart when the Glazers were trying to take the club over in the first place?

charleysurf · 30th January 2010, 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by theimperialinn

I reckon if this consortium offered the Glazers an exit strategy where they could cut and run with a modest profit they may take it.

These jokers won't just accept that unless they are pushed into a corner by the banks and it looks like they will lose control. If somebody comes and offers them a 100m profit today they'll just say that they'll be squeezing that out of the club for the next few years anyway. So why sell when there is still the hope of getting an even bigger buyer and an even bigger profit?

If the bond issue has given them a few more years to cling on to the club, then they will use those years IMO.

theimperialinn · 30th January 2010, 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by charleysurf

These jokers won't just accept that unless they are pushed into a corner by the banks and it looks like they will lose control. If somebody comes and offers them a 100m profit today they'll just say that they'll be squeezing that out of the club for the next few years anyway. So why sell when there is still the hope of getting an even bigger buyer and an even bigger profit?

If the bond issue has given them a few more years to cling on to the club, then they will use those years IMO.

There are better ways to churn cash off 100m than keep it in a football club, far better ways.

RK · 30th January 2010, 17:49

Just give me and my fellowship time.

Crerand Legend · 30th January 2010, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by theimperialinn

We can but dream!

Well the good news is I am more confident than I was yesterday

Number7 · 30th January 2010, 17:55

Even if this doesn't come off we must congratulate MUST for positive action they are taking in rallying the so called RedKnights.

I know after all that's gone on I'm unlikely to tip the balance of persuasion, but I think now is the time more than ever for supporters to really get behind MUST, through joining if you haven't done so. They're doing great work, and may be our best hope.

30th January 2010, 13:36	#1 (permalink)
Gunnar Reserve Team Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: theres only one place to live ''MANCHESTER'' Posts: 589	All change of ownership and Red Knights related posts here please Renowned football finance expert Keith Harris is working with disgruntled Manchester United fans to try and broker a takeover of the club that would end the mounting debt problems imposed by the Glazer family. Harris, a United fan who has been involved in several takeovers involving Premier League clubs, claims to have spoken to several interested parties as he attempts to put together a takeover proposal to put to the Glazers. The executive chairman of investment bank Seymour Pierce began working on the project after being contacted by members of the Manchester United Supporters Trust. "Yes, we have been approached," Harris told the BBC's Football Focus. "We can lend our weight to doing something for the good of United and for the good of football - none of the takeovers that I have been involved in have involved any debt. "They've been takeovers by people who've wanted to be involved for reasons other than money." Harris declined to name any of the people who have approached him, identifying them only as "The Red Knights". "A number of people have been to see me and I've had long chats with them," he said. "I know there are one or two people in senior positions in the financial services that have access to capital. "We don't know if the Glazers can be made to listen, but there is serious intent on the part of people who have support in their hearts. The time feels right." United hold debts of more than £700million - debts which are growing - as a result of the Glazers highly-leveraged takeover of the club in 2005. While nothing new, the debts have recently re-emerged as a hot-button topic among supporters after the full extent of the growing problems were revealed when the club issued £500million worth of bonds in a re-financing effort. Harris shares the anger of his fellow United supporters. "(The Glazers) are playing with an icon of football, one of the most respected brands in the world, and it is in danger," he said. "Seventy-five pence of every pound (fans) are spending is now going to the Glazers either for themselves or to pay debts." "If these rumblings become a revolution and (fans) stop going - as difficult as it is for them not to go - and the pounds stop coming in, there is real peril." When asked for comment by Football Focus, United issued a statement denying there are problems, stating that the club is "most profitable football club in the world". A spokesman for the Glazer family told the programme they have no interest in selling. But Harris believes they could be persuaded if the price was right. "It depends on the Glazers' attitude but we've got to think that their businesses in America haven't done well - nobody's businesses in America have done well - and they're probably highly geared to those businesses. "If this is an opportunity for them to take money and go then you have to think they would listen to that."

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30th January 2010, 13:39	#2 (permalink)
Crerand Legend Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 7,865	Is there light at the end of the tunnel, lets hope so

30th January 2010, 13:48	#3 (permalink)
RedMist99 Reserve Team Player Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: South Manchester Posts: 3,350	Sounds quite promising. Won't hold my breath though....

30th January 2010, 13:52	#4 (permalink)
Clique First Team Sub Join Date: May 2009 Location: Mermania Rulez!!!...Merms come back!!! Posts: 5,125	So how much do you except this group has to come up for the Glazers to leave?

30th January 2010, 14:03	#7 (permalink)
GaryLifo Nice Bloke Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Davo thinks I'm weird Posts: 4,122	I hate to be all negative, but there is no way the Glazers will sell the club unless there is a massive profit in it for them. For this reason, this consortium is likely to fail as to be a non-debt takeoverthey will only be able to pay a sensible price.

30th January 2010, 14:04	#8 (permalink)
esmufc12 Unclean Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,477	Interview is here BBC Sport - Football - Keith Harris reveals interest in Man Utd takeover Very good interview, and I agree with him that the time does feel right and momentum is building very quickly. If enough people can get on board and if we can be United in our efforts, we can make a difference. I've got a good feeling about this.

30th January 2010, 14:21	#15 (permalink)
Crerand Legend Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 7,865	Keith Harris's interview was obviously the opening shots to a take over bid. He knows however that getting the yanks to move may be the problem but he obviously has his finger on the pulse of the mood of the fans and he is prepared to use it

30th January 2010, 14:27	#17 (permalink)
Twigginater WUM Alert! Join Date: May 2008 Location: Obertans #1 fan. Posts: 5,585	This... sounds very promising.

30th January 2010, 14:35	#20 (permalink)
Clique First Team Sub Join Date: May 2009 Location: Mermania Rulez!!!...Merms come back!!! Posts: 5,125	Ok this might sound a bit idiotic. But a question never the less. Suppose the team which wants to takes over pays off the glazers profit whatever it may be. 300 million perhaps and then tackle the loans themselves at a later date. It would if i'm correct need the loans to be transfered to the club. Is that possible?

30th January 2010, 14:50	#21 (permalink)
Reddevill Reserve Team Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 2,214	Fingers crossed things will happen.

30th January 2010, 14:59	#22 (permalink)
JayWalker Ball Spotter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Still got the blues for you.. RIP The Loner. Hull City. Posts: 25,558	Wasnt there a chinese consortium who bid 1.2 billion pounds (Or willing to bid) only to be rejected/shunned by the glazers ?

30th January 2010, 15:07	#25 (permalink)
Escobar Poster originally known as Michel04 Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: "Collar turned up, back straight, chest stuck out, he glided into the arena as if he owned the fucking place" Posts: 16,490	Right now, anything than the Glazers sounds better. And since the investors are supposed to be United fans, I hope they will also act only in the best way for the club I hope the Glazers sell. They wanna make a profit out of that? Get the fuck outta here!!! For what? Making 700M debt? Taking millions out of the club?

30th January 2010, 15:34	#26 (permalink)
Rood nostradamus like gloater Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Republik Of Mancunia Posts: 12,999	Potential 'Red Knights': 1. Jim O'Neill "Goldman Sachs' chief economist Jim O'Neill, a fan and former director of Manchester United, today said the £500 million of bonds the club issued last week were an unattractive investment." Goldman Sachs' Jim O'Neill slams Glazer family's Manchester United bonds \| Business 2. Paul Marshall "Paul Marshall, co-founder of hedge fund Marshall Wace and a Manchester United fan, says its time for supporters to combine forces to return the club to the community - debt free." Manchester United fans should buy the club, says hedge fund star Paul Marshall - Telegraph 3. Fred Done "Fred Done, one of Manchester United's biggest fans in the business community, says he believes the club is too deep in debt and has declared that he will not be investing in the £500m bond issue launched by owners the Glazer family. Done the 4th richest man in the North West along with brother Peter made his £510m fortune through the Betfred franchise, which is Manchester United's former official betting partner." Fred Done: I wouldn't touch Manchester United bond issue with a barge pole - Crain's Manchester Business To be honest, the fans can protest as much as they want but the Glazers probably dont give a shit. The only way to get them to go is for someone to come up with an offer that they can't refuse (probably £1bn+) so it is very encouraging to hear that some serious businessmen who are also fans might be looking to get involved.

30th January 2010, 15:46	#27 (permalink)
charleysurf Talks sense Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 9,612	I'm probably being my usual pessimist self, but if something like this has not happened for Liverpool, who would be half the price of United, why would it happen for United? Between paying off the Glazers, and taking on the debt, it'll cost more than one and half billion to take over the club. And no fan-based consortium will get that together I'm afraid. The Glazers are here until their hand is forced by the banks, and the bond issue probably gives them breathing space for another couple of years. It's going to take the club going into administration, and being available at a knockdown price, to get rid of them IMO.

30th January 2010, 16:05	#28 (permalink)
KingMinger22 City >>> United Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Banbury Posts: 2,882	If a bid was made, a good one, it would take a fans boycott and maybe the support of Fergie could help. Also, I doubt the banks are that happy with the finances of the club. They could force the Glazers hand. A 200 million profit for the Glazers and they would be insane not to take it.

30th January 2010, 16:09	#29 (permalink)
KingMinger22 City >>> United Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Banbury Posts: 2,882	The club could be bought for 600 million if the 500 million debt is took on

30th January 2010, 17:30	#32 (permalink)
theimperialinn First Team Regular Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Paddy's gonna trip you up, Paddy's gonna mow you down, then he's gonna get the ball and desert you!! Posts: 11,190	I reckon if this consortium offered the Glazers an exit strategy where they could cut and run with a modest profit they may take it.

30th January 2010, 17:49	#38 (permalink)
RK First Team Regular Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 13,933	Just give me and my fellowship time.

30th January 2010, 17:55	#40 (permalink)
Number7 Ret's Slave Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: I am very enjoy Posts: 28,165	Even if this doesn't come off we must congratulate MUST for positive action they are taking in rallying the so called RedKnights. I know after all that's gone on I'm unlikely to tip the balance of persuasion, but I think now is the time more than ever for supporters to really get behind MUST, through joining if you haven't done so. They're doing great work, and may be our best hope.