ALL issues relating to the bond issue and club finances

Crerand Legend

Don't apologise friend you are totally right what you are saying. The only thing the Glazers are good at is spin and we all know who the spinmasters are

ciderman9000000

I respect Crerand's right to hold an opinion, but once he's given it to me i'm under no obligation to respect that opinion. If he purposely twists my point and calls it pathetic as he did here...

...then he's liable to rouse my anger and be met with abuse; simply human nature dictating the natural reaction to certain provocations in humans.

Last season we were desperately unlucky not to win more than we did; we suffered the worst defensive crisis in memory mid-season and then lost the world's most in-form striker at a crucial point six games from the end; and yet the quality and strength of our squad meant that we still only finished one point behind a very strong Chelsea team. To describe our squad as weak then is ridiculous. The loss of Ronaldo made us weaker, as it would any team, it put is into a state of transition in terms of what strengths the team plays to, but with the addition of Valencia we coped with that rather well, and we certainly didn't appear weak; we pushed Chelsea to the final weekend of the season, weak teams don't do that. Crerand has a very short memory.

What Crerand is saying is just bullshit, he's (predictably) blaming the owners for some poor form in key players for us at this, the start of the new campaign. Rooney, Evra, Carrick, Fletcher, Park and Evans are all good players who are part of a strong squad, they do not need replacing; they're key players for us, and it's unfortunate that they've started the season poorly, but that's just something that football teams have to cope with; when so many key players are experiencing problems with form then it's inevitable that a club's results will suffer, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the club's owners.

As i said earlier in the thread, as soon as Rooney and Evra get back into the groove from their WC hang-over we'll be fluid again and be bowling teams over home and away; will Crerand be praising the owners when the results start coming in? I very much doubt it. But if the owners are to blame when the team plays badly, why are they not deserving of credit when the team plays well? Something just doesn't add up in Crerand's equation.

Our draws away from home this season have come from a few silly defensive errors and a lack of form in certain key players meaning that we've been unable to kill teams off as we normally would do; the owners have fuck all to do with it. Fuck all.

TheMancRedDevil

I'm pretty sure that I said at the outset that no one is saying that they are "good" - just that they are not half as "bad" as we have been led to believe they would be.

I have just tried to explain why they deserve at least some credit for our recent successes. I believe it is grossly unfair to deny them any credit when things go well but hold them up for blame for every little thing that goes "wrong" (like drawing 0-0 away to Sunderland, for example!)

No, they don't pick the team, no they don't actually play themselves but they do pay the wages of the people who do.

They deal with the financial side of things and leave the football to those who know best and don't interfere. That is a "good owner", in my book.

Yes, they have brought the debt but they have also increased revenues to cater for the debt but I would rather the debt wasn't there any day of the week but as it is there, we have to ask what effect it will have on the club.

At the moment, it is impossible to say for a fact that it has had any negative impact on the club in the past because we have continued to be as successful as ever.

What none of us know for certain is what the future holds (and in that regard, we're no different to any other club in the world, if we're being honest).

I just like to believe that my own view of the future is based a little more on the facts at hand rather than a bitter and twisted hatred of a group of businessmen and their controversial method of fund-raising.

Magnus

Fair enough

fredthered

I love how people forget Chelsea two or three seasons ago had one recognised defender to choose from through the whole of December and January and it was a monumental achievement when we won the league. Yet when we get a defensive crisis suddenly thats an excuse for not winning the league.

What we went through last season every other team has suffered just the same. If you cant ride out those bad times then you dont deserve to win the league plain and simple.

What they seem to be missing is what we could be with more funds available to spend.

So Park, Evra, Rooney are having a bad time. Thats where buying decent squad players comes into it.

Where is our back up for Scholes, Giggs, Valencia or Fletcher if one or more get injured.

We should have players that can step into the fray when others are going through bad patches. The Phil Neville, Nicky Butt, John O Shea kind of players. The ones that may not be 100% good enough to get into the first team, but will provide you with a damn good back up if they are called upon.

We have a great first 11. IF they are all fit and ready to play at the same time. If one or more get injured, or hit a bad form then it shows in the rest of the team.

Finally, quit with the "world cup" hangover bullshit. There are countless players in the league who went to the world cup and they arent "suffering a hangover"

What we have a case of here, is simpletons who will look for any excuse to explain why our form is patchy. It was patchy for much of last season and the only reason we stayed in touch with CHelsea is because they too were equally inconsistent. If they'd played last season like they are this season the title would have been won by christmas. Some people conveniently forget that fact.

Last season we didnt show anything that could match what Chelsea proved they were capable of at the end of the season. They have followed on in that rich vein of form this season, and the fact we're dropping behind so early on is evidence we are not strong enough to keep up with them. Anyone who thinks we are is living in fucking cuckoo land.

our biggest worry this season isnt whether we are going to be the best team in England, its whether we are going to be the best team in Manchester...

Magnus

I completely agree. I will never blame the Glazers when our team put on a poor show just as I will never give them credit for us winning any match. I will only blame them for putting our club in a debt that costs our club millions and millions year after year just in rents. I´d rather that money went to lowering the ticketprices so that it wouldnt cost a fortune for a man in Salford (just an excample) to take his two kids to the theatre of dreams. If they had bought our club without borrowing money I´d probably think of them as good owners

Magnus

Oh common Fred it isn´t that bad. We are a better team than manchester City so I have no worries about them. It might be hard to beat Chelsea to the title but I´m confident we can do it.

ciderman9000000

Injuries can dictate the outcome of a season; big news.

We didn't deserve to win the league, Chelsea did, that doesn't mean we are a weak side.

City?

Buy who? Who are these 'decent squad players' we sould have bought?

Nani, Carrick, O'Shea, Park, Gibson, Bebe, Obertan.

Yeah, if only we had a John O'Shea kind of player

Obviously, as it would any team.

I'm sure someone could count the players in the league that went to the world cup, and yes, some of them too are out of form. Torres anyone?

Chelsea started last season just as well as they have this, and their squad has got weaker over the summer, not stronger.

Writing off United? Yeah, like nobody's made that mistake before

Ooh scary.

UnitedRoadRed

Quality, you're even making words up now.

Scholes >>>> Fletcher.

Carrick has been ahead of the pecking order for most of his time here too.

TheMancRedDevil

This gets better and better...

cider says Fletch is the first on the teamsheet and you gave four players that you put before him but neither of you has mentioned Rooney yet so I'm going to stick him in too so now we're up to six players who could all arguably be the first on the team-sheet and now you come in with Carrick - that's seven names out of eleven that could be "first on the team-sheet".

Shit squad we've got, isn't it?

ciderman9000000

I don't get it. Fletcher's been one of the team's most outstanding and consistent performers for three seasons now; are you underestimating his value because it suits your argument, or are you really just blind to his contribution towards our trophy haul over the last few years?

lynchie

Apparently he's having trouble selecting a first choice central midfield from the embarrassment of riches we have available. An understandable problem.

ciderman9000000

It doesn't make any sense, TMRD, i'm as baffled as you are.

Our midfield four at the moment picks itself:

Giggs-Scholes-Fletcher-Nani

We then have Carrick, Anderson, Gibson and maybe Hargreaves to act as back-up in the position that we're supposedly the weakest; that's £50m worth of central midfield players possibly sat on the bench.

We rely on Scholes and Giggs because they're two of the best players in the world who have proven track records of reliability; they're not young anymore, but they're not injury prone players either and each very rarely suffer from dips in form; when they retire one would assume that they'd be replaced with new signings, but whilst they're at the club and performing then it'd be stupid not to utilise them.

Even without those two - and the point is that we do have those two - our midfield is adequately covered. Aside from the unfortunate and unforeseable side-lining of Valencia we still could line up:

Park-Anderson-Carrick-Nani
Park-Anderson-Fletcher-Nani
Park-Anderson-Gibson-Nani
Park-Carrick-Fletcher-Nani
Park-Carrick-Gibson-Nani
Park-Gibson-Fletcher-Nani
Rooney-Anderson-Carrick-Nani
Rooney-Anderson-Fletcher-Nani
Rooney-Anderson-Gibson-Nani
Rooney-Carrick-Fletcher-Nani
Rooney-Carrick-Gibson-Nani
Rooney-Gibson-Fletcher-Nani
Bebe-Anderson-Carrick-Nani
Bebe-Anderson-Fletcher-Nani
Bebe-Anderson-Gibson-Nani
Bebe-Carrick-Fletcher-Nani
Bebe-Carrick-Gibson-Nani
Bebe-Gibson-Fletcher-Nani
Obertan-Anderson-Carrick-Nani
Obertan-Anderson-Fletcher-Nani
Obertan-Anderson-Gibson-Nani
Obertan-Carrick-Fletcher-Nani
Obertan-Carrick-Gibson-Nani
Obertan-Gibson-Fletcher-Nani

That's without even considering a five-man midfield, John O'Shea in center, Fletcher on the right or Hargreaves' potential return.

Sure we'd probably be weaker without Scholes and Giggs in the side, but so would any team if they lost two key players; and, as i've mentioned, they are in the side. If SAF couldn't pick a workable midfield four our of the many combinations above then he's just not doing his job properly; they're good players, good 'squad' players as fredthered might say, and we have a good squad.

Rood

I think you could do with reposting that in the several other threads where people are questioning our midfield options and banging on about fecking Van Der Vaart as if he is the new messiah !

TheMancRedDevil

I honestly can't believe you typed all that out!

Yeah, the permutations without a massive loss in quality are enormous but as Rood says, Van der Vaart is apparently the missing piece of the jigsaw according to some in other threads and some people simply cannot understand why we haven't bought him!

We're well off topic now though aren't we? Where's anders and his spreadsheets when you need him?

ciderman9000000

Well, i like VDV and he would have been a good option for us, but i just don't see the point in having another central midfield option in the team. You'd imagine that signing a CM in the summer would have meant one leaving the club, but who would get the chop?

Anderson has so much potential and is five years younger than VDV. SAF sees a big future for Gibson as a proper goalscoring midfielder. Scholes is in great form and is a club legend. Carrick when his form returns will be very valuable and is a calming and experienced playmaker. Fletcher plays his role better than anyone else in the league. Hargreaves is a totally different player again to VDV and hopefully will make a much welcomed return to the first team this season. Where would Van Der Vaart have fit into that group? I'm not saying that he wouldn't have improved us, but would he have been nailed-on to have improved us enough to warrent the sale of one of the above players? I'm not so sure.

Sometimes you've just got to stick instead of twist; a muppet might tell you otherwise, but then muppets don't generally manage football clubs, so who gives a fuck?

UnitedRoadRed

Which three seasons?

Erm, Rooney's carrying a niggle and a lot of personal stress at the moment, that's why I'd not included him.

But you obviously missed Cider pointing out that he was talking about the midfield too, so I'll let you off.

TheMancRedDevil

Rooney would make a better midfielder than VDS!

ciderman9000000

Look, if you don't rate Fletcher then more fool you, but don't start acting dumb and pretending as if 99% of the footballing world is equally as blind to his qualities as you obviously are. Convince yourself that Fletch hasn't been a driving force in our trophy-winning side for a number of years if it suits your argument, but don't be a dick and make crap attempts to convince anyone else, because it's just not gonna happen.

ciderman9000000

Crerand Legend

Cider likes to get heavy when he losing the debate. Having stood in court to give evidence against a top paramilitary and condeming him to a long stretch I can assure you Cider's name calling does not annoy me, in fact I find it hilarious

ciderman9000000

You may have stood in court and given evidence against a top paramilitary and condemned him to a long stretch, you grass, but i've stood in front of a team of highly trained and organised crack ignorinators and made them each and every one cry tears of insanity as my incessant name-calling fused their slashing-edge water-off-a-duck's-back glands into one big, puss-filled and rapidly pulsating incandescent lump of bio-mechanical infuriation. You're no match for me, Crerand; no mere human is match for me for i am the 9millionth and best incarnation of what you squirming grubs in your stunted little language call God! Consider this a warning.

UnitedRoadRed

Oh stop being a complete twat.

He's had two good seasons.
He's been poor this season.
He only had 16 league appearances 3 seasons ago.

You talk bollocks then act the big I am, patronise and ridicule but ultimately you're a lying wanker who tries to deflect attention from the fact that you were wrong.

Crerand Legend

Where is that box of tissues? All this laughing the tears are running down my face. Go and do your homework Cider

ciderman9000000

Another one with retardedly short memory when it suits!

Ok, Fletcher's shit and the SAF would have replaced him in the summer had it not been for the Glazers and their evil penny-pinching.

Happy now?

Get a grip.

TheMancRedDevil

I'm sure there's a point to all this but I'm damned if I know what it is...

ciderman9000000

Ahh you're making an effort to insult me; by your logic that must mean you're losing the argument.

ciderman9000000

I think it started when Crerand decided that Malcolm Glazer is so evil that like some kind of Harry Potter baddy he stripped Rooney of his form and is making us lose matches.

ralphie88

I've not read through the last 20 pages of drivel in this increasingly inane thread, but I would guess his point was that the Glazers haven't invested in the squad and that as a result we're starting to see the effects on the pitch. Just a wild stab in the dark, like...

ciderman9000000

Something like that yeah.

The team draw a match... "The Glazers did it!"

Stupid, i know.

TheMancRedDevil

Oh yes, I remember now... it's all coming back to me. I had tried to stuff it away deep into my subconscious like a bad memory.

Sometimes I think we'd do best to remember that we're actually arguing with people who believe that three consecutive PLs followed by a 2nd place represents a decline in standards.

Crerand Legend

Just thought I would point out we have not lost any

ciderman9000000

We've already lost the league; you're in dreamland if you think United can win the league apparently.

Crerand Legend

Have we? Perhaps it would be an idea for us both to leave it there as Im sure a verbal sparring match between us with only a slight relevance to the thread is bound to be boring readers

ciderman9000000

Not if we do it in rhyme!

Crerand, oh Crerand
Your posts make me cringe like my mouth got lemon'd
Your IQ is half that of Richard Hammond
And you're full of more shit than a bear all salmon'd
Crerand, you're a mong
You're brain aches 'cus your two thick planks aren't long
You've got a pie stuck in your think-pipe line
You make Danny Dyer look like Albert Einstein
Crerand, you're always so sensitive
You type like your OD'd on sedative
There's only so much Crerand a man can take
One'd get a better debate from a wet corn-flake
And yet you're always there trying your best
You blame the Glazers for world hunger; who'd o' guessed?
You think you've won Connect Four when you connect just two
And they're not even the same colour; one's green, one's blue
Where the fuck did you get green and blue Connect Four chips?
I'm bored of this rhyme now, it's getting on my tits.

golden_blunder

yes, both of you should leave it there

None of us want to be reading this crap, consistently taking threads off course.

I know i've replied to your post, but this is aimed at you and Cider, as well as those who use this thread to throw petty insults at each other.

MacMUFC

I'd love to take part in discussion in an important thread like this, but for fuck sake, the posts/posters in here just make it so fucking boring.

TheMancRedDevil

The problem is that it has now all been said and done really and we're waiting for some new news on the financials to come out so we can all start all over again.

In the meantime, we just throw petty insults at each other for a few pages.

Like a retarded dwarf walking past a clock, it isn't big and it isn't clever but it passes the time.

I suggest you come back when the next financial reports are published (should be available before the end of the month) because it will be in full swing by then.

And if you thought the last few pages were bad, wait til anders brings his spreadsheets!

ciderman9000000

This is the only Glazer related thread left, all our other ones got closed down; it's impossible to stick to any topic because the threads concerning the various facets of the ownership issues got closed and now we're all bottled up in this one. We're not allowed to mention Glazer in any other threads, so it's just inevitable that this single thread (which should just be for finance issues) is going off on a mad 'un. We've got e-cabin fever.

Crerand Legend

I think you will find that if I did any petty insulting it was minimal, the abuse I received was far from minimal. Out of respect to yourself I wont respond to post 4036 but it is typical of what happens if you oppose cider and it is out of order especially after I attempted to end what was becoming a petty dispute.