Berbatov

Randall Flagg

Its hardly a surprise he is not content. I suggested he should be annoyed about his situation and got shot down for it.

His interview seems entirely understandable to me and he does not say anything too bad at all.

For his own sake he should hand in a transfer request in the summer

Indeed

Simon Adebesi

This is exactly how I feel about it. As I have said numerous times before in this thread, the blame for this whole SNAFU lies squarely with SAF, who is responsible for figuring out who is going to fit well into the system. You cant legislate for people failing to deliver as expected once they arrive at a club of this size, but when someone comes and does exactly what he has always done but just doesnt fit into the system then the manager has fucked up. C'est la vie.

Is that correct? Or are you just making the point that he tends to score non vital goals? If this is backed up by the stats then that is quite amazing. Still rate him though. Sometimes you just want to sit back and marvel at what someone can do with a football. That's Berbs.

Randall Flagg

It is up to the player to adapt to the club and not the other way around. Dont be silly.

Simon Adebesi

I dont think it is silly at all. Why pursue a player relentlessly for a year if once he arrives you are going to try and change him? I am not talking about the whole laziness thing, which seems to be something of a myth anyway, as SAF himself as argued. If it was a case of not playing him because he wasnt working hard enough then yes, itd be down to Berbs. But this is a case of round holes and square pegs. There are plenty of other players out there, SAF wasnt interested, he wanted Berbs and Berbs alone.

finneh

His goal actually against Basle got us a point actually, but I pretty much dismissed that as we would have still qualified in 3rd without it so it was essentially meaningless.

In the League/Cups his goals have been meaningless in terms of the final result, which I think has always been the problem with Berbatov. When everyone's playing well and the team are flowing he looks majestic, but these are the games you win irrespective. He certainly isn't someone who performs when you are in the trenches and need to find a result a goal or two down.

amolbhatia100

Responsibility lies with both. The player is responsible for moving to the club and the manager is responsible for making the signing. So a player not adapting or not working out is a failure for both he manager and the player.

As for Berbatov, he's simply too good to be 4th choice at any club. I wouldn't blame him for wanting out if he does at the end of the season. He would be a first choice at a majority of clubs but his style of play isn't completely suited to ours.

Simon Adebesi

I completely agree with that, above.

"His style of play isnt completely suited to ours."

As the manager, SAF is responsible for assessing the style of play of prospective targets, and then bringing the ones he thinks will suit and enhance the team. If he brings someone in who cant get a game because, though brilliant, he doesnt suit us, then surely that is a cock up by SAF.

It isnt a character assassination or a call for him to be sacked as manager or a denial of his brilliance. It is just me saying, on this occasion he fucked up. Which is a shame given he was the last of his kind, before the policy about maximum ages and resale values was formalised.

And yes, maybe Berbs should have tried to adapt more to suit us, but the gulf seems to be pretty big. I just find it strange. This was not an opportunistic signing, or buying a young player who had all this potential and could be developed, this was buying the finished article, a man at his peak. If you want a Ferrari, dont buy a Porsche and then take it apart and try and build a Ferrari, buy a fucking Ferrari.

Pogue Mahone

This is complete bollox, to be fair.

EDIT; Oh right, you're talking about this season. Still an absurd point. He's hardly played and it would be crazy to hold it against a striker that when he has played we've usually won comfortably.

I'm always right

tbf, I think that was the point he was making.

finneh

I was originally responding to a post that was stating his goal contribution (per minute) this season as better than RVP's and last season second only to RVP. Which also included the statement "so basically he scores every game," which I found very disingenuous (to paint 1 of 3 goals vs Aldershot, 1 in 5 vs Fulham, 3 in 5 vs Wigan, goals when we lost the game anyway vs Blackburn and a penalty against Stoke in the same light as the top striker this season).

We can agree that he hardly plays (in my opinion for the aforementioned reason). My point was that his scoring has been frequent per minute this season, but also pretty insignificant.

Hernandez' goals on the other hand, despite not having the best season, have contributed 7 points. I don't know how much more he has played than Berbatov but I'd definitely prefer a player who scores when we are playing mediocre to win 2-1 rather than a player who scores the 4th and 5th in a 5-0 hammering, when we are playing exceptionally.

Treble

Well, 3 of his goals - vs Benfica and Blackburn - were scored when we were trailing the game. It wasn't his fault that we failed to win those games. And wins in them would have been quite important, especialy the game vs Benfica. We didn't get good results in those two games but Berbatov was one of our top performers in them.

The only game in which he started and was poor was the game vs Newcastle away. The service he got in that game was dire though. The other forwards didn't perform much better, the whole team was poor.

A main reason for his situation is that he's 31 whereas Chicharito and Welbeck are young, the future is theirs. Fergie has the intention to build another great team before retiring. Berbatov doesn't feature in his plans not only because of his style of play but due to his age as well.

We cannot beat the likes of Barcelona and Real by techically outperforming them. That's quite obvious. What we are supposed to do better than them is playing with more power and pace. Fergie seems to think that's the only possible way to win another CL and his signings sort of prove it. We are signing players who can run a lot, play with great intensity and pace. The likes of Welbeck, Chicharito, Cleverly, Jones etc. fit that picture pretty well. By contrast, Berbatov doesn't fit in well. He is at his best when the team enjoys a lot of possession, both at home and away. However, our tactics seems to be based mainly on fast movement of the ball and lightning attacks, not on possession of the ball.

The fact that Swansea have had more possession than United speaks volumes of the kind of football Fergie wants United to play. Naturally, it's not the type of football Berbatov is great at. Still, when we play at home we can play in a way that can make Berbatov quite useful for us. He has scored 23 goals from 21 starts at Old Trafford since the start of the previous season. So, it's not true that he doesn't suit our style per se. Rather, he doesn't suit our style in games in which we struggle to dominate possession, i.e. mostly in games vs good teams or away games.

Pogue Mahone

And the point I was making is that our strikers deserve credit, not criticism, for being part of a team that wins comfortably.

FlawlessThaw

Feel a bit sorry for Berbatov to some extent, if we had beaten Benfica and Blackburn, he would be deemed a hero. Instead most people want to forget both matches and thus his contribution.

Red Pavan

He needs more games, he deserves it on the form he has showed when he has been called up on this season. I am pleased that he given an interview about his intentions on wanting to play. Sometimes, Fergie just seems to have a thing against him not starting or even bringing him off the bench.

Simon Adebesi

Sometimes when I am walking down the street I remember that he was dropped from the bench in a CL final in favour of MICHAEL FUCKING OWEN and I have to grab hold of a lamp post or a railing or something to stop myself from falling over from the utter disbelief of it.

kietotheworld

What the fuck? We were two goals down against Blackburn and he scored twice to get us back into the game. It's hardly his fault that De Gea made a hash of it, is it?

FlawlessThaw

Well historically he's never been the most effective when he has come off the bench particularly when we are chasing the game. Hernandez is more likely to grab us a goal off the bench than say Berbatov will.

Also I reckon Fergie believes and I share the same view that Welbeck and Hernandez are much better to start with for Rooney who is practically a guaranteed starter. Our worst performance this season has been with Rooney and Berbatov up front and while in the years past Berbatov has done well, I don't think Rooney has in the partnership. If Fergie persists on starting with Rooney whether he is in form or not then Berbatov will play second fiddle to the other strikers.

Simon Adebesi

Yes, kind of tramples on the whole "not a man you want with you down in the trenches" theory.

Varun_Utd

I've never got these bollocks about some goals being meaningless just because they aint the winner or the equaliser.

Say we're 2-0 down in a game and player X scores to make it 2-1 and then Y comes along to make it 2-2. How is the 1st goal any less important than the 2nd in the bigger picture?

Its just like in cricket where everybody hugs and praises the guy who scores a last ball six to win the game but you cannot forget someone else who scored a crucial 50 nonetheless.

I dont understand the agenda some have against him at all. he plays whenever given the chance, does not moan about shit in the press and handles himself very well off the pitch, never a word against the club or the manager. I dont understand at all the shit thrown at him. He was never a fast pacy striker who ran around a lot, not even at his pomp at Spurs, all of us knew that right from the off. Yet, somehow he's supposedly to be blamed for not being the player we wanted him to be.

Reminds me of the shit thrown at carrick for not being like keano when we all knew all along that he never had the same style.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

I've never seen a meaningless goal. Even a mere consolation in a hiding is meaningful.

Varun_Utd

Apparently his goals against blackburn were meaningless because De Gea fucked up. Also his goals vs Basel.

kietotheworld

The argument is more applicable in cases where he's scored the 4th or 5th goal against an opponent who has already been soundly beaten.

Varun_Utd

How often has that happened though? Specially this season?

Its just usual bollocks from those who seem to have some kind of an agenda against him. Ridiculous to say he's had 0 meaningful goals for us this season like someone did top of the page;..

Randall Flagg

Saying which goals people feel are important or not is completely pointless.

This is all about the player and how he has failed to fit in with Utd, proven by the fact Fergie uses him as a bit part player.

He did very well last season and has come in and done well when called upon this season. He has managed to make me at least forget about his rotten first 2 years and now it looks as though he will be leaving at the end of the season. But at the end of the day he has not worked out the way we all hoped he would. It’s no major surprise if he leaves in the summer, just like it would not have been if he had left last summer. His comments in the paper are completely understandable, he is in a difficult predicament.

I hope he doesn’t go to that Russian side, instead I would like to see him move to Germany or Italy

Varun_Utd

Yes, all of that is fair Randall.. I dont think there's any chance he'd move to Russia though. He'l still be very good in any of the other 3 leagues and he's definitely not someone who'd go for the money.

Sw33t

Wasn't there an article around either this morning or yesterday which said that Berbatov himself said he was not happy, but he is not looking to move on in the summer and would like to continue his time here?

If that's true, top marks to the man, I think he's a great player who oozes class in everything he does or says. We're lucky to have him in our squad, even if he is 4th choice he is an incredible talent to have as a 4th choice striker for feck sake. If he does want to stay, I'll be more than happy to have him. As they say, haters guna hate..

kietotheworld

5th against Fulham, 2nd, 3rd and 5th against Wigan, all in 5-0 wins. I agree that it's an unusual and unfair way of judging him though, especially given how few appearances he's made.

Varun_Utd

Twice then. Enough to discount everything else he did? Games against basel? Blackburn?

Anyways, i see you agree with me so that aint really aimed at you..

finneh

It seems someone has made a comment that was never actually stated and everyone else has ran with it... Happens quite a lot on this forum.

I never said his goals against Blackburn were meaningless, I said "they were meaningless in terms of the final result", which is 100% true. I also never said that it was Berbatov's fault that his goals were meaningless, again implying something that isn't there. The fact remains however that come the end of the season they will be meaningless.

I did say that often when you are in the trenches, Berbatov is not a player you want to dig you out. I never used the Blackburn game as an example of this, this is an observation throughout during his time as a Man Utd player. I've always felt that he is more upbeat when everyone around him is firing on all cylinders. I've also always felt that when we go a goal or 2 down his head often drops and he starts blaming everyone around him.

I was responding to a post essentially comparing his contribution per game/minute to V.Persie, which in my opinion is ludicrous.

As above I wasn't saying it was Berbatov's fault.

But for what it's worth I thought he played poor-mediocre against Stoke, Otelul, Crystal Palace and Newcastle. I thought he played well against Leeds, Aldershot, Benfica, Wigan, Blackburn and Stoke.

I believe the reason he doesn't play is largely down to his contribution when in difficult situations. He doesn't get played in the bigger games particularly because these are often games where you have to dig in and come back from 1 or 2 (even 3 ala Chelsea) goals down or be resilient and hold onto a draw.

kietotheworld

You said that his goals in the League have been meaningless in terms of the final result, factually it is true but the implication of saying that this has always been the problem with him is that this is in some way his fault. This is grossly unfair. More importantly, his goals last season were often essential in terms of the final result, gaining us 8 points just off the top of my head from wins against Blackpool, Bolton and Liverpool, so how can it have always been the problem?

PJ

So this is why we don't kill teams off more, because it'd be meaningless.

Fucking hell.

Kelvin

he didn't say he wants to leave, he said he wants more playing time, nothing wrong in that, come on fergie you got to give him a better treatment than just a part-time player for us.

towcester_red

In place of who?

Sure he will get games in the Europa League.

Kelvin

i don't think he is inferior to welbeck or hernandez, its obvious rooney is authomatic first-choice.

Varun_Utd

Gotta think long term am afraid. has to be one of welbeck and hernandez for 90% of our games.

RedDevilCanuck

I still don't understand why Berbatov can't play as the furthest forward striker with Rooney behind.

Berbatov is a big man with great hold up play and has great vision to pick out passes.

I know we like to play a pacey striker with Rooney and it has worked really well for us. But Berbatov is ridiculously classy with the ball, experienced, and has scored many goals for us and his previous clubs.

I want more Berbatov and I was one that was against the signing in the first place.

towcester_red

I do like Berba, but he misses a lot of chances. For that reason id play Hernandez at home.

Welbeck is more of a handful for centre halves so id play him away from home.

Its harsh on him, but he is definitely 4th choice at the moment.

Snow

What a bizarre thing to say finneh. What if Berbatov wouldn't have scored the 2nd and 3rd goal and we'd be winning 1-0 the whole time with pressure on us?

The sad thing is that he doesn't fit our system. He's done very well for us overall but I think it's really down to the manager at the end of the day who decided to purchase him when he wasn't going to be using him full time. It was a panic buy after all. I've been happy with Berbatov here. Overall I think he's been very good. He's been better than Hernandez and Welbeck this season (not by much) because I find Welbeck to be wasteful in front of goal. Javier and Dimitar quite clearly aren't.
I don't really think that Welbeck+Rooney is better than Berbatov+Rooney. I think it's all based on three games at the beginning of the season. Same three games that have built Cleverley up way too much. Fact is we score a lot of goals with Berbatov on the pitch and to say that our attack is better without him just doesn't hold up.

Difference is that Welbeck is very young and quite the capable striker. He's also homegrown so no wonder he's starting games.

There really aren't many negatives to be had from our forwards. Rooney is still our top scorers despite these holes in his form and the other three generally play well when they are played. It's the good kind of selection head ache. What ever the case someone is going to be left out even though he deserves not to be.

finneh

I said it has always been a problem because (as I stated) I feel his head tends to drop when we are behind and not playing well. I think it is this mentality that leads to him being benched for many of the big games, because the going often gets tough more often in big games than "smaller" ones. Again I am not saying that he never performs in big games (Liverpool last year) or that he never performs when the going gets tough (Blackburn the other week), but over the course of his United career there is a definite trend.

In my opinion it isn't his fault that he hasn't consistantly got the mentality to perform often enough during big games or in tough situations. Many players have faltered in these situations despite having exceptional ability. It is just my personal belief that a player who performs on the big stage and against adversity is much more valuable than one that frequently doesn't (I'd assert than Sir Alex must feel the same).

I don't know whether it is the pressure of his price tag, the pressure of playing for a club like United or the pressure of knowing a few bad games and he has 2-3 players breathing down his neck.

/edit @ Snow: If you think mismanagement or panic buying is the reason behind Berbatov not thriving you are sadly mistaken. Fergie did not buy him and "not intend to use him full time", him consistently being picked over his first few seasons proves this. Him not playing full time is because of his form, his form is not down to not playing full time.

I also think saying he has been better than Welbeck/Hernandez this year is wrong, unless you mean purely on goals per minute.

Randall Flagg

Panic buy? We were European champions with a lot of options. It was far from a panic buy. I think Fergie saw him as a final piece.

The reason why we score lots of goals with him in the team is generally because we are at home to the weakest sides when he features.

And he certainly has not been better than Welbeck this season. Clearly the manager doesnt think so either