Darren f*cking Fletcher

All 3 United · 7th January 2009, 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwned

I don't think so either, I think we'd have been losing games that we were grafting.

It's always the case - Anderson and Nani are always going to be favoured over Fletcher and Park, not on merit, but because they're more flashy and play 'sexy football'.

With the back 4 we normally have and the tactics opposition employ i.e. 10 behind the ball. We should be able to play the likes of Anderson and Nani against the lower teams. Certainly at OT.

Brwned · 7th January 2009, 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by All 3 United

With the back 4 we normally have and the tactics opposition employ i.e. 10 behind the ball. We should be able to play the likes of Anderson and Nani against the lower teams. Certainly at OT.

We have done, and they haven't performed as well as Fletcher when they've been given the chance to.

All 3 United · 7th January 2009, 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Aye, we looked fucking lethal against the scousers, didn't we?

As I recall we were away from home and Berbatov, Rooney and Tevez started.

Mozza · 7th January 2009, 11:56

There is a serious case of the Heinzers with Fletcher, he's worked hard but he's not been that good

Anduin · 7th January 2009, 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by All 3 United

With the back 4 we normally have and the tactics opposition employ i.e. 10 behind the ball. We should be able to play the likes of Anderson and Nani against the lower teams. Certainly at OT.

I think there is plenty of room for both, we need to keep our options open. So far I've got the feeling both are at their best whenever they play in a midfield three. Carrick, Fletcher, Anderson - it doesn't get much better than that, especially when Scholes retires.
Both players are very good examples that you need experience in the middle of the park. Anderson has the pace, technical skills and football intelligence to run the show, but he is 20 years old and it will take time to mature - probably two, three or four more years before he knows how to handle his defensive responsibilities better. Skill-wise Fletcher IMHO offers less than Anderson, but his experience and of course his eye for the goal take him ahead of Anderson in the pecking order.

Pogue Mahone · 7th January 2009, 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mozza

There is a serious case of the Heinzers with Fletcher, he's worked hard but he's not been that good

Brwned · 7th January 2009, 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mozza

There is a serious case of the Heinzers with Fletcher, he's worked hard but he's not been that good

He's been one of our top three performers this season.

Is our defensive record with and without him just a coincidence?

All 3 United · 7th January 2009, 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwned

We have done, and they haven't performed as well as Fletcher when they've been given the chance to.

Recent games with little creativity from the midfield. Grafting out results against pretty shit opposition. Where are the chances for Anderson and Nani. Over Fletcher and Park???

Boro (home) 1-0

1 Van der Sar
21 Rafael
15 Vidic
23 Evans
22 O'Shea
7 Ronaldo
16 Carrick
24 Fletcher
13 Park
10 Rooney
9 Berbatov

Stoke (away) 0-1

1 Van der Sar
2 Neville
15 Vidic
23 Evans
22 O'Shea
7 Ronaldo
24 Fletcher
18 Scholes
11 Giggs
10 Rooney
32 Tevez

Spurs (away) 0-0

1 Van der Sar
21 Rafael
5 Ferdinand
15 Vidic
22 O'Shea
7 Ronaldo
24 Fletcher
16 Carrick
13 Park
9 Berbatov
32 Tevez

Sunderland (home) 1-0

1 Van der Sar
21 Rafael
5 Ferdinand
15 Vidic
3 Evra
7 Ronaldo
16 Carrick
24 Fletcher
13 Park 32
10 Rooney
9 Berbatov

Man City (away) 0-1

1 Van der Sar
21 Rafael
5 Ferdinand
15 Vidic
3 Evra
7 Ronaldo
16 Carrick
24 Fletcher
13 Park
9 Berbatov
10 Rooney

UnitedRoadRed · 7th January 2009, 12:05

Midfield three. Hmmm, reminds me of when we when to 4-5-1 to cater for an ageing Keano who could only last full games with two more midfielders there with him. The Keane-Scholes partnership of the late 90s would piss on the three of Carrick, Anderson and Fletcher so it's costing us an extra man to be worse in midfield than we were ten years ago. Yes, we were blessed but if you believe SAF/Gill and see how much we've spent recently then surely we can do better than that?

An Essien-Carrick partnership, for example, in a 4-4-2 would be excellent when coupled with Ronaldo down the right and, should he prove his worth, Tosic down the left. The other option up for consideration is "doing a Whiteside" and dropping Rooney back into midfield.

Anduin · 7th January 2009, 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by All 3 United

Recent games with little creativity from the midfield. Grafting out results against pretty shit opposition. Where are the chances for Anderson and Nani. Over Fletcher and Park???

Boro (home) 1-0

1 Van der Sar
21 Rafael
15 Vidic
23 Evans
22 O'Shea
7 Ronaldo
16 Carrick
24 Fletcher
13 Park
10 Rooney
9 Berbatov

Stoke (away) 0-1

1 Van der Sar
2 Neville
15 Vidic
23 Evans
22 O'Shea
7 Ronaldo
24 Fletcher
18 Scholes
11 Giggs
10 Rooney
32 Tevez

Spurs (away) 0-0

1 Van der Sar
21 Rafael
5 Ferdinand
15 Vidic
22 O'Shea
7 Ronaldo
24 Fletcher
16 Carrick
13 Park
9 Berbatov
32 Tevez

Sunderland (home) 1-0

1 Van der Sar
21 Rafael
5 Ferdinand
15 Vidic
3 Evra
7 Ronaldo
16 Carrick
24 Fletcher
13 Park 32
10 Rooney
9 Berbatov

Man City (away) 0-1

1 Van der Sar
21 Rafael
5 Ferdinand
15 Vidic
3 Evra
7 Ronaldo
16 Carrick
24 Fletcher
13 Park
9 Berbatov
10 Rooney

Five games, 13 points, no goal conceded. Coincidence?
We battered Boro but were unable to score (Fletcher's hardly to blame), played City off the park in the first half, had enough chances to score at White Hart Lane as well. Stoke was a difficult game, half of the squad probably was tired and we luckily got away with it. You do have a point about the Sunderland game, we lacked creativity in that one. But it was one game and they defended superbly.

Brwned · 7th January 2009, 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by All 3 United

Recent games with little creativity from the midfield. Grafting out results against pretty shit opposition. Where are the chances for Anderson and Nani. Over Fletcher and Park???

Starts for Nani - Community shield, 0-0.

Super Cup 2-1 loss.

Villareal - 0-0.

Celtic - 1-1.

Villareal - 0-0.

Aalborg - 2-2.

Among others. I'd rather 'graft'(a gross overstatement IMO) out good results than draw playing nice football.

Brwned · 7th January 2009, 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnitedRoadRed

Midfield three. Hmmm, reminds me of when we when to 4-5-1 to cater for an ageing Keano who could only last full games with two more midfielders there with him. The Keane-Scholes partnership of the late 90s would piss on the three of Carrick, Anderson and Fletcher so it's costing us an extra man to be worse in midfield than we were ten years ago. Yes, we were blessed but if you believe SAF/Gill and see how much we've spent recently then surely we can do better than that?

An Essien-Carrick partnership, for example, in a 4-4-2 would be excellent when coupled with Ronaldo down the right and, should he prove his worth, Tosic down the left. The other option up for consideration is "doing a Whiteside" and dropping Rooney back into midfield.

You'd rather have Tosic on the left than Nani?

UnitedRoadRed · 7th January 2009, 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwned

You'd rather have Tosic on the left than Nani?

I don't know. If he's better then yes. Not seen enough of the lad, but I did add the caveat "should he prove his worth".

Pogue Mahone · 7th January 2009, 12:22

At this point in the debate it's usually useful to introduce some league stats from the season so far. Turns out that Fletcher has scored more goals, been stronger in the tackle and has passed the ball more accurately (86% pass completion vs 85%) than than Mozza's idol, Michael Carrick.

Bear in mind that pretty much everyone agrees that Carrick has been immense this season. Which makes it absolutely fecking mental to claim that Fletcher has been "not that good".

Carrick

Code:

Goals           2
Goal assist	0
Fouls Conceded	9
Fouls won	9
Tackles lost	14
Tackles won	16
Shot on target	8
Total shot	12
Appearances	12
Att. created	17
Total Passes	620
Acc. Passes	527
Minutes played	794

Fletcher

Code:

Goals           3
Goal assist	0			
Fouls Conceded	14	
Fouls won	10
Tackles lost	3	
Tackles won	15
Shot on target	4
Total shot	12
Appearances	14
Att. created	16
Total Passes	808
Acc. Passes	695
Minutes played	1130

Brwned · 7th January 2009, 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnitedRoadRed

I don't know. If he's better then yes. Not seen enough of the lad, but I did add the caveat "should he prove his worth".

Aye but shouldn't the same caveat be used for Nani?

Tosic's worth less then £10m, Nani's worth £17m.

I don't think anyone believes Tosic has as much potential as Nani.

Pogue Mahone · 7th January 2009, 12:29

And some food for thought for the Anderson fan-boys.

Code:

Goals 0 
Goal assist 0 
Red card 0 
Yellow card 0 
Fouls Conceded 10 
Fouls won 7 
Tackles lost 10 
Tackles won 12 
Shot on target 4 
Total shot 10 
Appearances 10 
Att. created 14 
Total Passes 409 
Acc. Passes 351 
Minutes played 619

Not as strong in the tackle as the other two. Passing on a par with Fletcher (86%) no objective evidence of being much more creative and the less said about his goal-threat the better.

UnitedRoadRed · 7th January 2009, 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwned

Starts for Nani - Community shield, 0-0.

Super Cup 2-1 loss.

Villareal - 0-0.

Celtic - 1-1.

Villareal - 0-0.

Aalborg - 2-2.

Among others. I'd rather 'graft'(a gross overstatement IMO) out good results than draw playing nice football.

Conveniently ignoring the 1-1 v Newcastle that Fletcher played in but Nani didn't, the dour 0-0 with Spurs that again Fletcher played in but Nani didn't. Stats can be tweaked however you want, apart from getting Gerrard a Premier League title. Whatever you do, don't mention Macedonia!

UnitedRoadRed · 7th January 2009, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwned

Aye but shouldn't the same caveat be used for Nani?

Tosic's worth less then £10m, Nani's worth £17m.

I don't think anyone believes Tosic has as much potential as Nani.

Stan Collymore had potential.

Pogue Mahone · 7th January 2009, 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnitedRoadRed

Conveniently ignoring the 1-1 v Newcastle that Fletcher played in but Nani didn't, the dour 0-0 with Spurs that again Fletcher played in but Nani didn't. Stats can be tweaked however you want, apart from getting Gerrard a Premier League title. Whatever you do, don't mention Macedonia!

It's lunacy to try and judge individual players on team results. Absolute madness.

You can make a case for clean sheets being evidence of a good performance by our back four, or a shit-load of goals being evidence of our wingers/forwards playing well but it's quite possible for an individual defender to have a shocker while the team, as a whole, manages to keep a clean sheet. And strikers/wingers are frequently anonymous, despite their team-mates tearing the opposition to shreds.

If the result is in any way close, though, it's downright retarded to try and appportion blame/credit on individuals.

Brwned · 7th January 2009, 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

At this point in the debate it's usually useful to introduce some league stats from the season so far. Turns out that Fletcher has scored more goals, been stronger in the tackle and has passed the ball more accurately (86% pass completion vs 85%) than than Mozza's idol, Michael Carrick.

Bear in mind that pretty much everyone agrees that Carrick has been immense this season. Which makes it absolutely fecking mental to claim that Fletcher has been "not that good".

Carrick

Code:

Goals           2
Goal assist	0
Fouls Conceded	9
Fouls won	9
Tackles lost	14
Tackles won	16
Shot on target	8
Total shot	12
Appearances	12
Att. created	17
Total Passes	620
Acc. Passes	527
Minutes played	794

Fletcher

Code:

Goals           3
Goal assist	0			
Fouls Conceded	14	
Fouls won	10
Tackles lost	3	
Tackles won	15
Shot on target	4
Total shot	12
Appearances	14
Att. created	16
Total Passes	808
Acc. Passes	695
Minutes played	1130

It's also worth noting that Fletcher's conceded 6 goals in those 1130 minutes whereas Carrick's conceded 5 in the 794.

So that's one goal in ever 159 minutes for Carrick and one in every 188 in for Fletcher.

So for all the praise that Carrick rightfully gets for his defensive exploits, Fletcher doesn't get enough. In the four league and Champions League games we conceded more than 1 goal, Fletcher was missing for all of them, I think that's more than a coincidence.

Brwned · 7th January 2009, 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnitedRoadRed

Conveniently ignoring the 1-1 v Newcastle that Fletcher played in but Nani didn't, the dour 0-0 with Spurs that again Fletcher played in but Nani didn't. Stats can be tweaked however you want, apart from getting Gerrard a Premier League title. Whatever you do, don't mention Macedonia!

Ignoring it?

Why would I bother pointing it out?

I'm not even sure the argument you're trying to make, but Fletcher's been very good this season and if we had've sold him in the summer I reckon we wouldn't have been as high up the league table as we are now.

UnitedRoadRed · 7th January 2009, 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

It's lunacy to try and judge individual players on team results. Absolute madness.

You can make a case for clean sheets being evidence of a good performance by our back four, or a shit-load of goals being evidence of our wingers/forwards playing well but it's quite possible for an individual defender to have a shocker while the team, as a whole, manages to keep a clean sheet. And strikers/wingers are frequently anonymous, despite their team-mates tearing the opposition to shreds.

If the result is in any way close, though, it's downright retarded to try and appportion blame/credit on individuals.

Have a go at Brwned then - I was showing up what results can do based on it. Although people were quite happy to roll out the "we never lose with Rooney" mantra despite Ronaldo scoring 42 goals.

If we're looking at performances then great. Let's take the Boro game as an example. Fletcher was shit. He completed two forward passes further than five yards all game. He's about as positive as the Pope's HIV test. He's been over-egged this year big style. Yes, he's played better but that's like saying the Nagasaki bomb was good because it killed less people than the Hiroshima bomb.

As for your last point, are you vindicating Park's miss at 1-0?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwned

Ignoring it?

Why would I bother pointing it out?

I'm not even sure the argument you're trying to make, but Fletcher's been very good this season and if we had've sold him in the summer I reckon we wouldn't have been as high up the league table as we are now.

My point is the same as Pogue made to me - you can't necessarily judge a player based on a team's results.

Pogue Mahone · 7th January 2009, 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnitedRoadRed

Have a go at Brwned then - I was showing up what results can do based on it. Although people were quite happy to roll out the "we never lose with Rooney" mantra despite Ronaldo scoring 42 goals.

That comment was aimed at everyone in general. Might have been a tad harsh to quote your post but there you go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnitedRoadRed

If we're looking at performances then great. Let's take the Boro game as an example. Fletcher was shit. He completed two forward passes further than five yards all game. He's about as positive as the Pope's HIV test. He's been over-egged this year big style. Yes, he's played better but that's like saying the Nagasaki bomb was good because it killed less people than the Hiroshima bomb.

As for your last point, are you vindicating Park's miss at 1-0?

This nonsense makes me feel a little less guilty about quoting your post, then using words like "retarded"

Obviously there's a difference of opinion about Fletcher's form this season but look at the stats, FFS, if you want to see an objective assessment of the respective contributions of our midfielders. He's been arguably our most effective central midfielder, both in attack and defence. How the fuck does this make the praise he has received "over-egged"?

And yes, he was poor against Boro. Name me one single player who has played well in every single game they featured in this season? In your own time. If anything, Fletch has been poor in a lower proportion of games than anyone else in our squad.

Brwned · 7th January 2009, 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnitedRoadRed

My point is the same as Pogue made to me - you can't necessarily judge a player based on a team's results.

I agree with that, but if you look at what I was replying to the lad did exactly that, so I thought it was entirely relevant to do the same in this case. That's the only reason I listed those results.

I don't judge players by our team's results in any sense. I judge them on performances.

In terms of performances, Fletcher's been up there with Vidic and Evra as the best. On the other hand Nani's been right down at the bottom. Anderson and Park are somewhere in the middle.

Park deserves to start ahead of Nani right now and Fletcher has deserved to start ahead of Anderson, but once Scholes is fully it Fletcher will be right back to being on the bench.

peterstorey · 7th January 2009, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mozza

There is a serious case of the Heinzers with Fletcher, he's worked hard but he's not been that good

That's what I've seen, he's put in a few workmanlike performances (and scored one very tasty goal) but he's still he same fairly limited player.

Pogue Mahone · 7th January 2009, 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterstorey

That's what I've seen, he's put in a few workmanlike performances (and scored one very tasty goal) but he's still he same fairly limited player.

Have you watched every United game involving Fletcher this season?

peterstorey · 7th January 2009, 13:23

Most of them I'd say.

Brwned · 7th January 2009, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterstorey

That's what I've seen, he's put in a few workmanlike performances (and scored one very tasty goal) but he's still he same fairly limited player.

He's this season's Flamini.

peterstorey · 7th January 2009, 13:26

He's this season's Tevez (overhyped and out the door the next one).

Pogue Mahone · 7th January 2009, 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterstorey

Most of them I'd say.

I've watched them all. The improvement in his all-round game has been dramatic. Anyone who says otherwise is either blinkered by their previous dislike (and a reluctance to eat their own words) or not watching closely enough.

He's had two, maybe three mediocre to poor performances all season (a couple of them fairly recently). Apart from those games he's been absolutely superb.

Pogue Mahone · 7th January 2009, 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterstorey

He's this season's Tevez (overhyped and out the door the next one).

Try not to be so bitter about our recent success, Peter, it causes your usually sensible facade to slip something rotten.

Brwned · 7th January 2009, 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterstorey

He's this season's Tevez (overhyped and out the door the next one).

Sounds a bit like Flamini there as well.

Pogue Mahone · 7th January 2009, 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwned

Sounds a bit like Flamini there as well.

Top · 7th January 2009, 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

He's had two, maybe three mediocre to poor performances all season (a couple of them fairly recently). Apart from those games he's been absolutely superb.

Yup, it is a bit of a worry the way he seems to have gone back to his old Fletcher-ways the last month or so.
Where as Anderson on the other hand has been great in the same month.

But if we know Fletcher right, then he'll step it up again against Chelsea, if given the chance.

7th January 2009, 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brwned

Sounds a bit like Flamini there as well.

Chris H · 7th January 2009, 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnitedRoadRed

I don't know. If he's better then yes. Not seen enough of the lad, but I did add the caveat "should he prove his worth".

Next time add the caveat "Though I don't even know his first name", it will be more relevant.

UnitedRoadRed · 7th January 2009, 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris H

Next time add the caveat "Though I don't even know his first name", it will be more relevant.

So because I couldn't be bothered typing Zoran it makes the comment worthless? Sorry H.

Chris H · 7th January 2009, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnitedRoadRed

So because I couldn't be bothered typing Zoran it makes the comment worthless? Sorry H.

Shit, I didn't know it. Just figured everyone else here is as thick as me, and has no idea if he's any good.

UnitedRoadRed · 7th January 2009, 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris H

Shit, I didn't know it. Just figured everyone else here is as thick as me, and has no idea if he's any good.

Come on Chris, think. We've paid around £10m for a young Serb international. Therefore if he proves his worth is a reasonable caveat. If he's not as greedy and wasteful as Nani has been so far then it's a decent start.

Godfather · 7th January 2009, 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnitedRoadRed

I don't know. If he's better then yes. Not seen enough of the lad, but I did add the caveat "should he prove his worth".

Whole Caf going nuts it seems.

Tosic instead of Nani

Good lord...

7th January 2009, 12:22	#454 (permalink)
Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: "like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons from a deckchair" Posts: 59,522	At this point in the debate it's usually useful to introduce some league stats from the season so far. Turns out that Fletcher has scored more goals, been stronger in the tackle and has passed the ball more accurately (86% pass completion vs 85%) than than Mozza's idol, Michael Carrick. Bear in mind that pretty much everyone agrees that Carrick has been immense this season. Which makes it absolutely fecking mental to claim that Fletcher has been "not that good". Carrick Code: Goals 2 Goal assist 0 Fouls Conceded 9 Fouls won 9 Tackles lost 14 Tackles won 16 Shot on target 8 Total shot 12 Appearances 12 Att. created 17 Total Passes 620 Acc. Passes 527 Minutes played 794 Fletcher Code: Goals 3 Goal assist 0 Fouls Conceded 14 Fouls won 10 Tackles lost 3 Tackles won 15 Shot on target 4 Total shot 12 Appearances 14 Att. created 16 Total Passes 808 Acc. Passes 695 Minutes played 1130

7th January 2009, 12:29	#456 (permalink)
Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: "like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons from a deckchair" Posts: 59,522	And some food for thought for the Anderson fan-boys. Code: Goals 0 Goal assist 0 Red card 0 Yellow card 0 Fouls Conceded 10 Fouls won 7 Tackles lost 10 Tackles won 12 Shot on target 4 Total shot 10 Appearances 10 Att. created 14 Total Passes 409 Acc. Passes 351 Minutes played 619 Not as strong in the tackle as the other two. Passing on a par with Fletcher (86%) no objective evidence of being much more creative and the less said about his goal-threat the better.

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7th January 2009, 11:56	#444 (permalink)
Mozza Mrs Carrick Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Let Rooney be Rooney Posts: 19,805	There is a serious case of the Heinzers with Fletcher, he's worked hard but he's not been that good

7th January 2009, 12:05	#449 (permalink)
UnitedRoadRed First Team Sub Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Manchester Posts: 5,619	Midfield three. Hmmm, reminds me of when we when to 4-5-1 to cater for an ageing Keano who could only last full games with two more midfielders there with him. The Keane-Scholes partnership of the late 90s would piss on the three of Carrick, Anderson and Fletcher so it's costing us an extra man to be worse in midfield than we were ten years ago. Yes, we were blessed but if you believe SAF/Gill and see how much we've spent recently then surely we can do better than that? An Essien-Carrick partnership, for example, in a 4-4-2 would be excellent when coupled with Ronaldo down the right and, should he prove his worth, Tosic down the left. The other option up for consideration is "doing a Whiteside" and dropping Rooney back into midfield.

7th January 2009, 13:23	#467 (permalink)
peterstorey Bitter Arse hole Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Happy those, who can remain at Highbury! Posts: 26,001	Most of them I'd say.

7th January 2009, 13:26	#469 (permalink)
peterstorey Bitter Arse hole Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Happy those, who can remain at Highbury! Posts: 26,001	He's this season's Tevez (overhyped and out the door the next one).