Fergie on Fletcher...

Brad

Football is a 'squad game', it has been for years with the Champions League as it is, and the increased pace and demands of a 90 minute match. What's changed is our squad, it's becoming stronger than ever. We have players in every position that can genuinely challenge for a starting place. If Fletcher is starting regularly for United, there's a big problem. Perhaps the current situation is ideal. He gets 11 starts a season, that way better players represent United on the pitch for longer, and those who think the sun shines out of his arse can go on about how excellent and under-rated he is.

People said the same about Smith regarding Newcastle, and he very much isn't a starting player since Keegan has come in. It was virtually this same arguement actually with United supporters who loved him. Yes you get behind him when he wears the shirt, yes he might be a nice guy, yes he works hard and gives his all. But that's not necessarily good enough when you're competing to be the best in the country and the best in Europe. You need to be one of the very best in your position, or be working towards that with potential. If anyone thinks Fletcher fits in that category, they're deluded

p.s I couldn't give a crap what he does for Scotland. If he's the best they've got... oh dear

reelworld

I'm confused.
What are you trying to say? Because you didn't actually argue my points.
Squad players isn't supposed to play every game. They're supposed to provide cover when injuries, tiredness and suspension comes. And guess what? Considering the factors that I already mentioned in my previous post, that'll happen a lot in a season. Hence we will need someone like Fletcher to come in.
If Fletcher starts regularly for us, then either we have an injury crisis, or he magically become good enough to dispose the players in front of him.
Either way, I trusted Fergie whatever his decision will be.


Did I said I like him because he works hard and gives his all?
Your Smith comparison hardly hold because Fletcher is already a better midfielder than Smith as a striker.

Bullshit.
Is Wes Brown one of the very best right back in Europe? Is Ji Sung Park is one of the very best winger in Europe?
You just don't get this whole squad player thing do you?

You said he looked better because he played with Scholes, Giggs, etc.
I refuted this opinion because he, in fact, has performed well when he played with the likes of Steven Pearson and Christian Dailly.

Brad

Once again, I couldn't give a crap what he does for Scotland

Actually, yes I think Wes Brown is a top quality right back, that's why he's been able to play as first choice all season in this United team and be so successful, our defence has been immensely strong. Ji Sung Park has become a regular first choice towards the end of the season, and is a fine player indeed, who puts in the yards as well as having the quality to beat his man and play good football. Perhaps he isn't one of the best in the world, but he's a far better player than Fletcher is. And that's the point, yes you have squad players, but at this club, to compete for the top trophies, you need the best squad players. And that means top quality players pushing for starts. Which is why Fergie went out and bought the likes of Nani, Anderson and Tevez has summer. I don't think Fletcher is of that standard, and as such should be lowest down that pecking order. And he is, hence his mere 11 starts this season. I'd be very suprised if he makes the final 18 for the Champions League final personally

And I don't just go with what ever Fergie decides as gospel. He's human and makes mistakes too. It's right to be constructively critical about our own team and players, and not settle for being second best. That's how you stay at the top

MadDogg

You do need players competing for a starting place, or at least breathing down the necks of the starting players. But every player in the squad can't be at that level, else the ones who aren't starting very often will get upset and leave, quite likely hurting team morale in the meantime. We have a squad of what, about 25 players? It's impossible that all 25 would be truly challenging for starting positions, unless every season you want to sell the 5-8 players who have got jack of barely playing, and trying to replace them with other players of the same quality (good luck finding ones who know they probably won't play much).

You need some squad players as well, players who are happy being on the bench (or not even that) a fair bit, and who are capable of coming in when needed and performing quite well. And that is simply a description of Fletcher. O'Shea too I guess, although the level of his performances can be questioned a bit more.

golden_blunder

what problem is that then?

sorry Brad but you're in a minority on this one. Generally i tend to agree with what you say football wise but on this you are so wrong now that its making you look silly. Its like you harbour this pent up hatred of Fletcher for years and have become so blinkered that you cannot recognise how much he has improved.

And to dismiss how he plays for Scotland is nonsense. It shows that he can step up, on the world stage, accept responsibility and run games.

Brad

Playing for Scotland is a step down from playing for United GB, it shows nothing

I have no hatred for Fletcher at all. I'm sure he's a likeable lad too. And I've been quite clear that I think he's a better player now than he was a couple of years ago, so I'm not sure how you consider that I'm blinkered. All I'm saying is actually what has proven to be the case. He isn't good enough to start at United regularly, and we have much better players and options than him in our squad already. Hence he's only made 11 starts this season in all competitions. And I think it will be the case again next year, certainly if we strengthen with a new signing or two

golden_blunder

He has 'only' made 11 starts because Carrick-Scholes is the first choice partnership

We'll see how that works out when Scholesy retires in a few years time. IF Fletch and the others are still around then.

But till then, I have utmost faith in him every time he takes the pitch

Brad

Yes 'only'. Danny Simpson made 4 starts for us this season. Ten players made over 30 starts in all competitions. Ferdinand played 50

Carrick and Scholes are first choice because they are far better players GB. And then you have Anderson and Hargreaves, again better players. And that is precisely the point GB, he's 5th choice. And often Fergie prefers O'Shea. You don't need 6 players covering 2 positions. He's surplus to requirements, if he wants to further his career and have a chance of becoming a better player, he needs to find regular football elsewhere. If not, fair enough, it doesn't bother me so much anymore because he plays relatively few games a season. And it's not like the old days, he doesn't look completely out of place. But he's an edges of the fringe player. And that's all he'll ever be here

golden_blunder

you are looking at it in a very black and white way though Brad. Everyone of those players offer different things. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Im glad at least to see that you haven't trotted out the "its because he's scottish" line. Very disrespectful

Brad

I don't dismiss that his nationality played a role in his selection in the past GB. That's how Darren Ferguson got games at United. That's how Valdes remains in goal for Barca. These ties do bring a bearing. It'd be ridiculous to suggest he's played only because of that, but I think it's earned him slightly more time and opportunities than would have been the case had he come from Barnsley. So I guess I might have dissapointed you after all

I don't think it's black and white GB, of course different players bring different traits and qualities to the side. But personally I think anything Fletcher brings is bettered by other players already at the club. I think O'Shea and Park are fantastic players, they are adaptable, and they bring something particular to the game. Perhaps not the worlds best, but as people so often say, you need that player type. I don't even consider Fletcher to be better than Phil Neville, and I think they play a similar role. But thats football, we all have our judgements and opinions, and I see no problem disagreeing on such issues

FranklyVulgar

I honestly think Fletcher is more than "just on the fringes" yes United had a great season but you can't say that Scholes and Carrick have been bang in form all season.
Scholes struggled after injury and hasn't been as good as he was last season.

Carrick started off very poorly indeed but once he got his form back has been class.

Anderson showed everyone what he can do but naturally couldnt sustain that level and can't last a full match yet.

Hargreaves had a very difficult start to his United career with injuries and became a bit of a scapegoat himself on these very boards for a while, has had a decent debut season considering.

And Brad you have to remember that Scholes is a club legend and one of the greatest midfield players in United history. Anderson, Carrick and Hargreaves have all been purchased for close to 20million pounds each. That is almost 60million on central midfielders in 2 years and to be honest when i think about it like that it is a miracle that Fletch is still at the club!

But with players naturally drifting in and out of form or picking up injuries i would think United fans (most are) would be delighted to have a player like Fletcher as back up. I mean the game he played against Arsenal after being out for months injured was outstanding and he has never put a foot wrong when played this season and has been an integral part of so many important games for United that it is no wonder Fergie still holds him in such high regard.

If anything i can see Fletch get more games next season and step up once again proving people wrong once again.

golden_blunder

disagree on the Darren Ferguson bit. Remember reading an article where Fergie didn't want to sign him because everyone would say it was just because it was his son. It was the coaches at the time, led by Brian Kidd that said Fergie Jnr was a talent and insisted that Fergie give him a chance. In fact, he did have a decent left peg but it was soon apparent that he wasn't really good enough. SAF to his credit shipped him out.

Bilbo

Surprised that anyone still needs to be convinced by Fletcher. Considering how rarely he gets on the pitch, he consistently performs at a fairly high level.

Its unfortunate that he is surrounded by four other very talented midfielders, as he would definitely improve most of the teams in the PL.

ronnie dazzler

he's a god player, but he was hyped as the messiah of English fooball as a teenager & Maradona X2

Brad

Yes I've heard the same actually. Fergies instinct was definately right on that one though! Remember the story about Kidd wanting to sign John Hartson? Fergie put him in his place that time

Still, I doubt Darren Ferguson would have been considered by the coaches if he wasn't Fergies son, it just so happens they were eventually proved wrong. Further to Ferguson seniors credit, not only did he ship him out, he left him out of the squad for the 91 cup winners cup final. That can't have been an easy thing to do. I fear for Fletcher the same fate awaits him Wednesday week

Name Changed

Fletcher did really well when he played this season. He was immense in the big games. I think he should play more regularly. Quality underrated player.

Brad

Quite a lot of this big game talk for Fletcher. In truth he didn't actually play in that many this season, which makes that declaration a bit mystifying. Here are his starts:

Kiev away w4-2
Kiev home w4-0
Sporting home w2-1
Roma away D1-1
Sunderland away w4-0
West Ham away L1-2
Arsenal home w4-0
Newcastle away w5-1
Lyon home w2-1
Bolton home w2-0
Chelsea away L1-2

Five appearances in the Champions League, although not until we'd won our first two games away at Sporting and home to Roma, which took all the pressure out of the group. He did however play, and well, in the home game against Lyon. He played against Arsenal in a magnificent 4-0 victory in the cup, there are arguements to be made about the quality of their line up that day. The only other 'big' game I see there is Chelsea away, in which we weren't particularly good until later in the second half, and lost the game.

Of the 5 games we lost in the league this season, Fletcher started in two, despite only making 5 league starts. That's not to blame him for the defeats, but it's not a good statistic now. In contrast, Rooney started 25 league games, and he lost once. And that when he'd been taken off injured with the scores level

I find it slightly suprising to hear a player has 'been excellent' and had a 'fantastic season' when he's only started 5 league games. I suspect much like some go overboard with the Fletcher 'hating' as some put it, others go overboard with the standard of his contribution. He's had a decent season, playing well, but rarely being called upon to play significant periods during games. There is notable improvement, but he's still nowhere near breaking the United first team consistantly. And he never will because he simply isn't good enough, and we have far better players

reelworld

Then how can you say he's only good when he's around better players when you won't see examples that he's actually good with lesser players?
Brown and Park wasn't one of the best players in Europe for their position. They're like Fletcher, who fill in because better players (first team players) were injured and unavailable. If Hargreaves or Carrick were unavailable for a certain period of time, I have no problem seeing Fletcher starts. The way I see it, since we often played with 3 in the middle, then 5 central midfielders competing for 3 spots is about right.
Eh, isn't that what Fergie has done for 20 years? And so far, he thinks that Fletcher's worth keeping around.

reelworld

And for the record Brad, I don't think Fletcher is going to be 1st choice for United, but considering injuries, suspension, 3 competitions that we'll be competing, he'll be more than handy to keep around.

Squad players who are good enough to push first choice players aren't going to accept being squad players for long. We can't expect all our squad players to be like Solskjaer.

Players like Fletcher who so far accepts that he's not first choice and did a job when he's asked have a right to stay at Old Trafford in my book. Especially if one of the job he did was help United spanked Arsenal 4-0.

Chris H

Park was first choice in the last few Champions League and league games. No one was injured, Fergie just thought he'd be the most effective choice. And he was quite good.

reelworld

If I'm not mistaken, Roma games Nani was injured. Against Barca it's Rooney who's unavailable.

Brad

I'm not aware that I've said anything of the sort?

Incidently regarding Park, consider that he was out injured until he appeared against Sunderland on the 26th December 2007, half the season. Since when he's made 14 starts, nearly half the amount of games United have played since. Clearly he is someone considered good enough to be a regular first teamer, and I agree, he's a cracking little player. Compare to Fletchers 11 starts, missing a mere month of the season to injury

I think the most ominous thing for Fletcher is that hargreaves only made 22 starts in all competitions this season. If he gets himself fit for the majority of next season, that statistic will rise markedly. And I think it's a fairly safe bet to suggest they won't feature in the same team often (indeed, they started together twice this season, once both in the same midfield in defeat away at West Ham; once with Hargreaves filling in at right back at home to Bolton, a position he won't normally play with a fit Neville and Brown)

reelworld

....

Chris H

At the Neu Camp, Park played alongside Rooney, and Nani came off the bench late on...for Rooney. In the return leg, Rooney was injured, with Nani getting a game.

Ferguson wanted Park on the pitch, and Park delivered.