Hargreaves - one signing too many?

GusHiddink · 10th December 2007, 21:38

Johnathon the writer....

I do see where you are coming from...but the long and short is thats its just a bit early to say. We've got to see how it pans out over a season.

We should be judging how things are when we come up against the likes of milan not derby. Thats why my doubts will remain on issues like rooney and tevez's effectiveness until we see them do it against real calibre.

for example We had shouts of yorke and cole earlier this season which was totally ridiculous...yorke and cole did it in places like the nou camp over the course of the season....

similarly the time to judge hargreaves and any role in the side is not now.

Sultan · 10th December 2007, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemo

Differing and stating they are completely and totally wrong are two diffrent things. Alot on here are basically saying Fergie and Co were wrong to buy Hagreaves and he was never needed. As if they never watched us crash out of the champions league. Or lose very tamely to Chelsea in the Fa Cup final. With Carrick around. Game in which we lacked energy in midfield, which Anderson and Hargreaves currently provide, and proper ball winner. Able to disrupt he flow of an opponents game. WE may have won the premiership last season. But it was without being that effective vs most big teams and piss poor away from home in Europe. Not to mention struggling with mid level league sides like Pompey and Newcastle away. Yet we were mostly at full strength. Yet since Hargreaves has been in the side, our away from in Europe is much better, we are unbeaten in Europe, we are yet to lose to a big side in the league and we are unbeaten at OT in the league so far. Which wasn't that case at this point last year. Having scored far more goals with a player who allegedly slows down our play in the side, than with Carrick. If that alone can't tell folks on here how wrong they are when it comes to Hargreaves nothing ever will.

Hi Chief

Ruben · 10th December 2007, 22:02

uh oh.

Sultan · 10th December 2007, 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruben

uh oh.

Hey Ruben

How's it going?

He'll come back saying it's his brother...

Ruben · 10th December 2007, 22:08

I`m very well, thank you. You as well I hope?

I hope it`s his brother, a lot of threads would be a lot less entertaining if it hadn`t been for the chief. Are you going to Anfield this weekend btw?

Sultan · 10th December 2007, 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruben

I`m very well, thank you. You as well I hope?

I hope it`s his brother, a lot of threads would be a lot less entertaining if it hadn`t been for the chief. Are you going to Anfield this weekend btw?

No

I don't tend to go to away games.

Feedingseagulls · 11th December 2007, 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by R0N4LD0

in·fer /ɪnˈfɜr/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-fur] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -ferred, -fer·ring.
–verb (used with object)
1. to derive by reasoning; conclude or judge from premises or evidence: They inferred his displeasure from his cool tone of voice.
2. (of facts, circumstances, statements, etc.) to indicate or involve as a conclusion; lead to.
3. to guess; speculate; surmise.
4. to hint; imply; suggest.

Where's this from then?

The fact that they include a 4th meaning which allows you to interpret how the word is now misused would certainly help in understanding what people write - but it doesn't actually reflect the correct meanings in my view.

Look at the sources I quoted earlier.

I will admit that my 1976 edition of Longmans suggests that the use of 'infer' to mean 'hint or imply' exists in 'pop[ular]' usage - but only in that context.

Websters doesn't bother to acknowledge this misuse...

Quote:

Infer

Verb

1. Reason by deduction; establish by deduction.

2. Draw from specific cases for more general cases.

3. Conclude by reasoning; in logic.

4. Guess correctly; solve by guessing; "He guessed the right number of beans in the jar and won the prize".

5. Believe to be the case; "I understand you have no previous experience?".

Source: WordNet 1.7.1 Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University. All rights reserved.
...

Specialty Definition: Inference
(From Wikipedia, the free Encyclopedia)

To infer is to draw a conclusion. To infer that X is to conclude that X is true; an inference is a conclusion drawn from a set of facts or circumstances. Much of the science of logic explores the validity or invalidity of inferences.
The difference between implying and inferring is this: an author who writes that all men are mortal and Socrates is a man implies that Socrates is mortal; a reader who is so subtle as to notice that the author implies that and to consciously think "Therefore Socrates is mortal" infers that Socrates is mortal.

In reading, inferences are made about parts of the text where the meaning is implied but not explicit. Assesments of the ability to make inferences about written text are used to measure reading skill.

I'm fairly sure that if I go to look at the OED or Fowler's English Usage, it will do the same - I'll check if you like.

Feedingseagulls · 11th December 2007, 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by R0N4LD0

i think with hargreaves we are talking about someone bought specifically for the big games against the better offensive teams. even though i would rather see us stick to 442 and one day force other teams to change their tactics when we bowl them over, it seems that SAF has thrown in the towel and thinks to win the CL we must play 451 against a few teams to win. 17mil is not too much to pay to win the CL, especially considering what it would mean to SAF and his career. i don't think strategically he would be playing so often if it wasn't to get him used to playing with our squad.

but i have also been a bit disappointed by his performances, as i inferred from his reputation he was a bit more dynamics. but again, i think this is caused by our need to get him games where he is not actually needed, such that his game looks rather useless at time because we don't need a gatusso against wigan and boro. and our need for a 4th striker, and the brilliance of torres makes me think that we would have been much better served to have gotten him, or anyone who could come in and shine as our line leader. but 17mil is not what it used to be, as implied by the sale of darren bent, with all the money from the tv deal prices are soaring, and perhaps 17 is more like 9 mil of 3 years ago.

once hargreaves is settled in i think we will see more of carrick, but that will prolly be more like next year. amazing game, where a player of carrick's talent, who was voted best player in his position last year, would see so little action. as for fletcher, like brown, i don't see them leaving regardless of playing time but obviously that could happen and might.

Bold statements

By the way - Encarta, which allows the misuse - also has this article...

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/featur...=questioninfer

I'd disagree that the misuse is just the 'tiniest bit sloppy' - it's just bad.

Feedingseagulls · 11th December 2007, 00:43

Right - back to the thread topic...

2 points need to be made I feel (though I suspect I've made one of them before).

1 There seems to be a difference in opinion between a group of fans and Fergie regarding whether we need 'Hargo'. I would like to suggest this comes down to differing perspectives on football.

The fans, I suggest, are dedicated to attacking football (score more than them, 4-4-2 in Europe, take the game to them etc.) - Fergie (whilst liking good attacking football) is far more interested in making sure we win. He thinks this is the way to do it - the fans, as in their earlier calls for more adventurous play, disagree. Personally I'd back Fergie's judgement, experience and knowledge over the entire cafe put together.

2 There seems to be this automatic assumption that, because Hargo himself may be a less creative passer than some alternatives, we are necessarily a less creative team when he plays instead of one of those alternatives. Whilst it would be true (if the limited passing thing is true) that we would get less from that particular starting position, it is entirely plausible to suggest that Hargo's increased effectiveness in his defensive duties frees up the other players enough to generate greater creativity overall. In fact the goalscoring exploits of the team with Hargo so far tends to provide slight support for this idea.

'night!

Feedingseagulls · 11th December 2007, 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DA2

You absolute, pedantic, rim-jobbing, hamster inserting, ball gobbler........

Blame Ron4ldo!

e.cantona · 11th December 2007, 01:14

I cant figure out when to use have and has

INF-AMOS · 11th December 2007, 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmashedHombre

I say you're an idiot and if you have nothing useful to say, then just bother. That goes for the rest of you as well. Seriously, whats the point? It was a well constructed post and is exactly what we need in the United forum..

Yes, well said... thats saved me a post.

Although i disagree and think hargreaves will prove his worth to United over the next five years, i appretiate your opinion John.

But dont bother defending your point to dukula any more John as it's surely clear to the majority with an ounce of common sense who the true spastic is.

kemo · 11th December 2007, 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sultan

Hi Chief

What chief where?

kemo · 11th December 2007, 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruben

uh oh.

what are you on about...?

kemo · 11th December 2007, 05:50

I wish all the Hargreaves bashers on here could tell me why the want to bash Hargreaves so desparately? When his presense has not disrupted the team neither have his performances been as bad as one Juan Veron, th last signing that caused a disruption in our teams flow? Is it so hard to give a player like him a fair chance in a United shirt?

lem8sh · 11th December 2007, 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemo

Hands down! Makelele is not a true midfielder. And is a very limited player. He is a third center back. Who can't tackle or pass a ball at all. All he does is sit in between or just infront of his center backs breaking up play. The chief mascott of anti-football. If there ever was one needed. For some one to call Hargreaves a limited player when Makelele exists is strange and hilarious.

Makalele is ten times the midfielder hargreaves is. Superior in everything apart from stamina perhaps,better passer, tackler and def better reader of the game. He's getting old now but hargreaves and makalele at his age is uncomparable.

Brad · 11th December 2007, 10:03

Damn I missed this thread

Hargreaves is class, and with him at the end of last season, I think we might well have added to our European tally. But that's just my speculation. I know this: we don't have another player like him at the club, and despite what some doubters might claim, he's one of the worlds best in his position. As usual, someone is criticised as not good enough after a spell of being injured (and in this case only just bloody arrived at the club). He will get fit again and prove himself. I think he's been excellent when he's played this season, this idea that he doesn't offer enough for a team that likes to attack from all positions is a complete misnomer too. He'd start ahead of Carrick for me in a vital game any day of the week, alongside Scholes if fit. I can't wait for that partnership to unfold. Anderson and Carrick hardly shoddy backup, it's fantastic strength in depth we haven't had for arguably 10 years now

Van Piorsing · 11th December 2007, 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by John the Writer

So what say you, was Hargreaves one signing too many?

I understand, there's a 5 centre midfielders (Hargreaves, Carrick, Scholes, Anderson and Fletcher) which is many, but... United needs a strong depth in the squad, especially in midfield and if we want a titles, the team must have quality backups in case of injuries or suspensions.

The season is long and hard and Hargreaves is giving to Sir Alex new tactical options which is the main thing behind this deal... that's what Fergie said.

I think it's a wonderful situation that United have so many players on midfield positions because manager is using rotation system and nobody of midfielders will get too tired and everyone will have the chance to shine.

choiboyx012 · 11th December 2007, 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lem8sh

Makalele is ten times the midfielder hargreaves is. Superior in everything apart from stamina perhaps,better passer, tackler and def better reader of the game. He's getting old now but hargreaves and makalele at his age is uncomparable.

lem8sh · 11th December 2007, 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by choiboyx012

Insightful post gimp

2cantona · 11th December 2007, 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by crappycraperson

Problem with Hargreaves is simple, people expect him to play like a 18m MF. He is not worth that much.

This is the most sensible post in this thread.

togg · 11th December 2007, 10:57

Hargreaves is a good playe..but totally injury prone. His tendonitis will never completely disappear, so never expect him to play more than 15 games a season!!!!!!

Escobar · 11th December 2007, 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by togg

Hargreaves is a good playe..but totally injury prone. His tendonitis will never completely disappear, so never expect him to play more than 15 games a season!!!!!!

Ok, Nostradamus of the 21 century

John the Writer · 11th December 2007, 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by kemo

I wish all the Hargreaves bashers on here could tell me why the want to bash Hargreaves so desparately? When his presense has not disrupted the team neither have his performances been as bad as one Juan Veron, th last signing that caused a disruption in our teams flow? Is it so hard to give a player like him a fair chance in a United shirt?

It's not about Hargreaves bashing at all. He's a good player. I simply made the point that had we not signed him in the summer, he probably wouldn't have been missed. Of course his signing offers us a fantastically strong midfield, I just feel that had we waited a season, we would be better placed to sign someone younger, less injury prone and cheaper. But we all know Fergie, and when he sets his sights on a man, he usually gets him.

John the Writer · 11th December 2007, 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by GusHiddink

Johnathon the writer....

I do see where you are coming from...but the long and short is thats its just a bit early to say. We've got to see how it pans out over a season.

We should be judging how things are when we come up against the likes of milan not derby. Thats why my doubts will remain on issues like rooney and tevez's effectiveness until we see them do it against real calibre.

for example We had shouts of yorke and cole earlier this season which was totally ridiculous...yorke and cole did it in places like the nou camp over the course of the season....

similarly the time to judge hargreaves and any role in the side is not now.

I totally agree. In fairness to myself though, I have acknowledged that my opinion might well be 'jumping the gun'. But if it wasn't for premature predictions Arsenal wouldn't be the greatest team of all time, Liverpool wouldn't have won the league in October and Essien wouldn't have needed a calculator. Right or wrong, if we didn't have it, we probably wouldn't have anything to talk about.

John the Writer · 11th December 2007, 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

My opinion is you are a blithering idiot. Hargreaves was clearly a needed and excellent signing and won't be making way for anyone new. You buffoon

You make a strong point. The fact you speak like a 1930s cad only serves to reinforce said strong point.

John the Writer · 11th December 2007, 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by INF-AMOS

Yes, well said... thats saved me a post.

Although i disagree and think hargreaves will prove his worth to United over the next five years, i appretiate your opinion John.

But dont bother defending your point to dukula any more John as it's surely clear to the majority with an ounce of common sense who the true spastic is.

That is all I could ask for in fairness. You don't have to agree with me, but there's no reason not to apply a bit of respect. Maybe my observation will be proved to have been completely off the mark (I hope it is), but at this moment it remains valid.

Personally, insults directed towards me on an internet forum concern me very little. I could however understand intelligent posters being put off. It took me a year of dipping in and out before I realised there was some intelligent discussion taking place.

10th December 2007, 21:38	#201 (permalink)
GusHiddink Alex Ferguson will not win another champions league for this club - Gus Hiddink 29/05/2007 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: In the berbatov thread trying to push the deal through Posts: 5,705	Johnathon the writer.... I do see where you are coming from...but the long and short is thats its just a bit early to say. We've got to see how it pans out over a season. We should be judging how things are when we come up against the likes of milan not derby. Thats why my doubts will remain on issues like rooney and tevez's effectiveness until we see them do it against real calibre. for example We had shouts of yorke and cole earlier this season which was totally ridiculous...yorke and cole did it in places like the nou camp over the course of the season.... similarly the time to judge hargreaves and any role in the side is not now.

10th December 2007, 22:02	#203 (permalink)
Ruben First Team Sub Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Oslo Posts: 5,091	uh oh.

10th December 2007, 22:08	#205 (permalink)
Ruben First Team Sub Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Oslo Posts: 5,091	I`m very well, thank you. You as well I hope? I hope it`s his brother, a lot of threads would be a lot less entertaining if it hadn`t been for the chief. Are you going to Anfield this weekend btw?

11th December 2007, 00:43	#209 (permalink)
Feedingseagulls Still looking for the seriousness of a child at play Join Date: May 2004 Location: Beyond Good & Evil Posts: 8,591	Right - back to the thread topic... 2 points need to be made I feel (though I suspect I've made one of them before). 1 There seems to be a difference in opinion between a group of fans and Fergie regarding whether we need 'Hargo'. I would like to suggest this comes down to differing perspectives on football. The fans, I suggest, are dedicated to attacking football (score more than them, 4-4-2 in Europe, take the game to them etc.) - Fergie (whilst liking good attacking football) is far more interested in making sure we win. He thinks this is the way to do it - the fans, as in their earlier calls for more adventurous play, disagree. Personally I'd back Fergie's judgement, experience and knowledge over the entire cafe put together. 2 There seems to be this automatic assumption that, because Hargo himself may be a less creative passer than some alternatives, we are necessarily a less creative team when he plays instead of one of those alternatives. Whilst it would be true (if the limited passing thing is true) that we would get less from that particular starting position, it is entirely plausible to suggest that Hargo's increased effectiveness in his defensive duties frees up the other players enough to generate greater creativity overall. In fact the goalscoring exploits of the team with Hargo so far tends to provide slight support for this idea. 'night!

11th December 2007, 01:14	#211 (permalink)
e.cantona Reserve Team Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,031	I cant figure out when to use have and has

11th December 2007, 05:50	#215 (permalink)
kemo Banned Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Uganda Posts: 1,480	I wish all the Hargreaves bashers on here could tell me why the want to bash Hargreaves so desparately? When his presense has not disrupted the team neither have his performances been as bad as one Juan Veron, th last signing that caused a disruption in our teams flow? Is it so hard to give a player like him a fair chance in a United shirt?

11th December 2007, 10:03	#217 (permalink)
Brad The Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Stockholm Posts: 19,121	Damn I missed this thread Hargreaves is class, and with him at the end of last season, I think we might well have added to our European tally. But that's just my speculation. I know this: we don't have another player like him at the club, and despite what some doubters might claim, he's one of the worlds best in his position. As usual, someone is criticised as not good enough after a spell of being injured (and in this case only just bloody arrived at the club). He will get fit again and prove himself. I think he's been excellent when he's played this season, this idea that he doesn't offer enough for a team that likes to attack from all positions is a complete misnomer too. He'd start ahead of Carrick for me in a vital game any day of the week, alongside Scholes if fit. I can't wait for that partnership to unfold. Anderson and Carrick hardly shoddy backup, it's fantastic strength in depth we haven't had for arguably 10 years now

11th December 2007, 10:57	#222 (permalink)
togg Reserve Team Player Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: London Posts: 730	Hargreaves is a good playe..but totally injury prone. His tendonitis will never completely disappear, so never expect him to play more than 15 games a season!!!!!!