Has Evra lost something in defence?

amolbhatia100

Well that's because back then the bad displays against the likes of Lennon were rare exceptions. I don't think he's been back to his best at all. There have definitely been signs of improvement but when right after those signs he performs so poorly in big matches you have to question whether those signs were part of a genuine progress or rather misleading. I'll disagree with you completely regarding him being close to being back to his best because all I've seen are minor signs to suggest the same sandwiched between more uncharacteristic (by old standards at least in terms of frequency) mistakes.

And to be fair, you can pick out silly comments like that on any topic and mock them. It's pointless.

Also, it has to be pointed out that many of the comments and opinions on Evra that are negative about him are based on a lot more than the last 2 matches and do take into account his decent/good performances as well.

Pogue Mahone

What other "big matches" has he "performed so poorly" in this season?

Annihilate Now!

I would post in this thread to comment that, whilst Evra has had some poor showings and has been at fault for some of the goals we've conceded, I think a lot of people are over exaggerating his decline, and in-turn look to blame Evra for almost every single goal we concede these days, which is utterly utterly ridiculous... I would post to comment all that, but I'm afraid brewlio might shout at me again.

So all I will say is that I appreciate the fact that we have a defender who never ever misses a sodding game.

Ramshock

Next time we play a decent footballing side look at what wing they concentrate their attacks on almost everytime and this against a team with an unsettled RB position. I appreciate Evra but it sad to be said he has been caught out too many times.

Annihilate Now!

Another way to look at that is, when you're playing with Sturridge on one wing, and Florent fucking Malouda on another wing... which winger are you going to use more then the other??

I take your point though, but I would suggest it's hardly that black and white.

antohan

Yes, he's lost something.

His man.

Several times.

Love Paddy though.

marjen

It's not that he's caught out of position so often, I think he's improved his positioning this season compared to last time around.

It's more a case of him being so easily done one-on-one. It's something he needs to rectify, because it used to be his biggest asset as a defender.

Why has it happened? There's no apparent reason to someone suddenly deciding to put in half-arsed attempts at stopping people from skinning them, when two years ago he was probably the best full back in these situations around.

Still ill

A bit strange, alright. Seems to be choosing the wrong moment to commit. Makes the challenge, sells himself, then he's out of the equation. Always told to stand up when I was a kid. Jockey. Paddy could do a bit more jockeying.

marjen

I think he stands on his heels, as I've explained before. He should backtrack, and try and anticipate the feint of the winger. Fair enough if he's simply done by a great piece of skill, but when there's only one place for the winger to go, unless he's Antonio Valencia, I expect a full back to at the very least block him from crossing.

Evra's still got the pace to cope with most wingers in those situations, and he's strong as hell, so there's no reason he shouldn't still be dominating wingers one-on-one like he used to. Has to be a mental issue.

amolbhatia100

He performed poorly against Liverpool and Chelsea after showing some signs of improvement. Those would be "big matches", wouldn't you say?

cw1984

Thanks but I'm not much of a gardener.

Shimo

Made 1 mistake against Chelsea - hardly a case of performing poorly in a big match when on the other hand he also won the team a crucial penalty.

Every game a defender will at least lose once against an opposing player, sometimes that one time ends up costing the team a goal but, that one moment does not make a poor performance. It would be if he was in the Chelsea game he was constantly being skinned and putting us in harms way - which was hardly the case.

Varun_Utd

Agreed, wont call his performance against Chelsea poor at all..

marjen

He was caught badly out of position for Mata's goal. Sucked infield and left Torres to pick his cross, which in turn led to us getting outnumbered in the box.

Pexbo

the fact his performances are being questioned at all these days is evidence he is not as consistent as he was. I'm a firm believer that every player no matter how self motivated they are, need someone to compete with on a personal level in order to keep their game sharp.

We have it in every other position but left back and I think Evra suffers because of it.

Shimo

This is the problem with looking to assign blame to a player. First your argument doesn't make sense, if he was sucked in, then he can't be guilty of us being outnumbered - as a player has been left out on his own.

Second - watch the play unfold again, he follows his player, Sturridge in, while Torres who Rio is tracking goes out. Rio follows him out and that leaves a big gap behind Rio - guess who moves into filling that gap? Yes, Evra. Evans then comes and makes a tackle which doesn't result us in winning the ball and it's quickly played out to Torres. Evra hasn't had a chance in this time to get back to get to the wide player after filling the gap.

To blame Evra for Torres being open to get his cross in reeks of desperation to assign blame to Evra in whatever way possible. Blame for the goal can't be assigned to just a single player - it was just a series that resulted in a fantastic cross and an excellent finish.

As to his performances being questioned - it's been happening for a while now, pretty much any time we get scored against and he has some part in it - the question is asked if he is done.

marjen

Evra shouldn't follow Sturridge in, that's why we've got a midfielder screening our defense. Evra should have talked him over and stayed in position, meaning he would've been able to close down Torres if needed.

That's why you operate with zonal marking in a back four, because you stay close to players in your zone.

Gazza

I'm with this. Evra's last 2 months have been, overall, encouraging. He seems to have some of that vigour back, and his runs forward from left back have been really helpful in the games at Emirates and Etihad especially. But it's equally true that he's a) still a bit slow to get back in position, and b) still looking ropey in 1-on-1 situations.

I don't think that's unfair on him or knee-jerk. I also don't think it's wrong to wonder if his physical attributes might be on the wane (understandable though it is, he plays more football than anyone), which would be further detrimental to his defensive work. However he's still vital for us in an attacking sense, no one would deny that.

Gazza

This. It is a bit puzzling that Fergie, who sees squad rotation as essential and tends to change the team in at least 3 positions every match, has not really done the same for Evra over the past 2 years, despite the demanding schedule he's had with Utd and France.

amolbhatia100

Firstly, I have to say that I am talking about his defensive performances. Evra always is a big contributor with his ability to drive forward of course.

But I think, regarding the chelsea game, you have to take everything in context. Chelsea were pretty rubbish overall. It would have been miraculous for them to have had a player skinning our fullback consistently. So you have to see it in the context of their overall potency as a team on the day as well as our overall quality as a title challenging and current title holding team. When do we ever have defenders constantly getting skinned? It happens very rarely. Even when Jones has put in nervy displays at cb its been through moments of poor play.

So having kept all of that in mind, evra was most definitely poor defensively. He was really poor for the first goal, left our defense disadvantaged for the second and I may be mistaken but also conceded the foul for the third. And its not just about yesterday. It's the fact that this has been a recurring theme with him. While I have acknowledged that hes shown signs of solidarity but to say that with complete clarity I need to see more than a few good outings followed by poor ones.

The more relevant point is that I don't attach any blame on evra. Players go through bad spells. Hopefully he's on his way out of a prolonged one. But we really need to have some backup for him. A little competition and sometimes even rest may do him wonders and allow us an alternative if he is off color, as with every other player.

Shimo

And am guessing if Sturridge had gone on to receive the ball and create/score a goal it would have been a case of Evra should not have left his man to just roam freely.

Zonal marking and staying in your zone is well and good but, United's players have the freedom to leave their zones as needed. At that moment following Sturridge probably seemed the right thing to do to Evra on how he read the play forming. In fact if you follow the play, Sturridge was getting into a central position while Rio was being pulled out by Torres, so it was probably the right move. Evra covered the gap left centrally as he should have done since Rio got pulled out wide - Evans tackle not resulting in us winning the ball centrally and them being able to quickly get the ball out resulted in the cross.

It's as easy as it is lazy to put blame on Evra for that goal but, it was no one person's fault. Heck if Valencia was the target of scapegoating, am sure we'd be hearing people say it was his fault for not providing cover on the back post.

Shimo

I guess then we disagree because while the first was definitely his mistake, the other 2 can be argued were not and other than that didn't put a foot wrong defensively. When you talk about a fullback being tormented, you think of the leftbacks that Valencia torments but, while Chelsea may have tried to target Evra with the impressive Sturridge, there was really only 1 or 2 moments that Evra was troubled defensively.

R_Kelly

Apparently we should sell him and buy Baines, but we'd be lucky to get £5m. Shame.

Annihilate Now!

Agree with all this, and I've said it myself countless times.

Evra followed Sturridge correctly, him and Rio decided to switch at what seemed to be a decent moment with Torres on the touchline and not exactly renowned for his crossing...

If you want to be super critical you could possibly say that Evra should have remained with Sturridge and Rio on Torres... but considering where the ball was, and considering who had possession of the ball, it was no suprise to see them decide to switch when they did... and thus can hardly be lambasted for it.

As for the 3rd goal, well, if we can't defend a bog-standard free-kick even remotely competantly, then Patrice Evra is the least of our concerns.

tintedsepia

His defending is ok i.e. tackles and stuff. But his positioning sucks and some of his decision-making in relation to his positioning.

And it's leaving our left flank just gaping wide open at times - so teams are choosing to attack us there.

Annihilate Now!

So we're upset about Evra's poor defensive work... and buying Assou Ekotto will remedy that??? Riiiiiiiight.

Also, going forward, Evra is better then all of those left backs for my money... I know it's not neccesarily the primary facet you require from a defender, but it's something worth thinking about.

Relevated

Some people in this place are acting like Evra has a life worrying problem which is preventing him from playing football! He doesnt need to be sold at all and can still recover his form, please dont hype the issue because its not what you are making it out to be. He needs a rest and will get it soon and thats about it. He has suffered a lot and noone can blame him on that part but yeah his defending does need to improve but attacking wise he is great! He struggles to get back into his position at times but hes experienced and will pull through.

England1966

it is true that he didn't play very well in the last month, but to whom you are going to replace him?! Let's give some credit to the lad and I'm sure he will not disappoint the boss..I think his current form is affected by Suarez scandal...as any abuse the victim is affected a lot

puNANI

I think he is still class. He contributes a lot going forward and has improved his final ball and decision making going forward this season. There are still a few defensive lapses but that's expected by a 30 year old back who bombs up the wing all game long. He has improved defensively from last season as well and I think he is still one of the best left backs in the world.

gbgary

i'd just be repeating myself.

Shimo

Wasn't he in the top 3 on overall MOTM rankings here on The Caf last month? Hardly scientific but, a pretty good indicator I'd say that claims that he hasn't played well in the last month are bit of a reach.

marjen

Rule of thumbs - you don't want to switch so that your CB is forced out wide to defend a cross, and in any case, Evra following Sturridge so far out forced Rio out - as can be seen by the fact that Rio didn't want to get out to the touchline, and as such Torres had acres of space.

Sturridge was running infield, straight into our most congested area.

Shimo

You are stuck on this because you need a reason to assign blame to Evra - this sort of thing happens repeatedly with our fullbacks, with our wingers - heck all of our players. They see the play unfolding and make a decision. Your stipulation that they should stick to their zone is ludicrous because it's never just that simple.

Rio not wanting to go out and cover Torres is reason enough for the blame to be Evra's? It's part of Rio's job to track the striker for goodness sake, well unless you prescribe to stay in your little zone and don't take a step outside it.

marjen

Look, this is probably a trap and I shouldn't bother to discuss this after the Rafael-debacle that went completely out of hand yesterday, where I almost certainly managed to be correct while simultaneously was entirely in the wrong.

But what you do, is shepherd the striker in-field, then leave him to the CM if he goes to far. Then you get your arse back to the full-back area.

You're not supposed to track the striker all the way into central areas unless you two are the only players in the half, basically.

Garethw

He hasn't been the same since the world cup a couple of years ago.

Still a wonderful player, but we should be looking at a replacement sooner rather than later.

Shimo

Well he didn't track him all the way to central area. He went with the play ever so briefly and in the mean time Rio had tracked Torres out wide. If you watch the play again you will see that Evra does the right thing in covering the wide open space behind Rio and does not just track Sturridge.

There were 24 second gone on the clock when the goal was scored. Evra hardly had a chance to get back in position after the Evans' tackle not resulting in breaking up the play and in fact allowed for the ball to be played quickly to an open Torres.

Defensively there isn't a lot I can find fault in watching the play unfold except in hindsight it worked out poorly. Evans tackle results in us winning the ball and his decisions look great - doesn't leave a dangerous player to roam freely and also recognizes big gap in our backline and fills it.

Decotron

He's an important player for us and will continue to be for a couple of years yet. The defensive thing gets far too much focus imo, its always been there.

He will never be a natural defender/full back that much should be clear to people by now. Doesnt make him a bad player. Look at the worlds "best" left back's. Not very many outstanding defenders is there?

Cheesy

You see, once upon a time he had a very good defensive game. His attacking game has always been his strongest point, however he used to be quite solid defending as well.

Now though, he's incredibly incompetent as a defender, and seems to have lost the knack for doing any sort of defending at all.

What do you mean he has never been a natural full back? That's where he's been playing for his whole career. It's the position where he made his name, as well. A few years ago there weren't many better than him there.

There are quite a few left backs out there who are very good at their defensive duties. Enrique has been a perfect example of that. He's been solid at the back for Liverpool.

Shimo

Over exaggerate much ? Starts every game for United, still selected for France ahead of Clichy. If he is completely incompetent sure, Fabio, Rafael, Evans, Fryers or someone else would be playing ahead of him for us. If he can't defend at all, surely we'd have chance after chance being created against us every time a team goes down the right side.

I mean all those interceptions and headed balls couldn't have happened if he was completely incompetent and unable to defend.

the 5-2 against Spurs a few years ago when Lennon had the beating of him - is no different to Evra today - he isn't infallible as a defender but, he is one of the best out there.

Cheesy

By incompetent, I obviously don't mean that he literally cannot defend at all. I'm simply stating that it's a massive weakness of his game, which it is. Admittedly, his defensive game has never been as strong as his attacking game, but it was once a lot more solid.

Being picked for France ahead of Clichy isn't really saying much when you look at Clichy, to be honest. Also, you can't just judge players in that way. Heskey was once a regular for England, but most of the strikers behind him in the pecking order were a lot better.

He is still starting for us most of the time, but that's because he doesn't have a lot of competition available. Fryers isn't ready to be thrown into the first team, while Fabio is hardly ever fit.