Just how shite do Scousers feel right now?

sammsky1

Do we have some older fans (45+) who can remember what it was like in the 70s and having gone through that, what it felt like in about 1985 when we were approaching 20 years without a league win. Was the club a mess? Could you see how it might be possible to simultaneously get out of the vicious cycle of underachievement and break Liverpool's seemingly omnipotent grasp on success.

Im asking because i want to get an insight into just how hopeless it must be to be a Liverpool fan right now. Should they fail to get into the CL next year and as a result sack Rafa, lose Torres or Gerrard (or both), just where does one start to resurrect the club?! Do you get a new manger, or try and build the new stadium but with what money? And what about the team, do you try and build through young talent or spend £400 million just to get back into the top 4 but with what money? And who will own the club? Its a vicious cycle that even the likes of Mckinsey would struggle with.

Were our problems as deep? Just how bad was it to know about our illustrious history but not be able to see the wood from the trees and find a way to realise that heritage?

Red Pavan

They'll probably end up finishing fourth and act as nothing has happened like they have been doing for the past 4 years.

Crumpsall Red

When we finished second in 1979 we felt there was some hope, a bit like "it's our yeAr next year" type of thing. Then we finished fourth for what seemed like the next 10 yeArs and yes in answer to the title it did feel very very shit! In the late eighties you really couldn't see it ever ending.

Pronewbie

I really don't see them finishing 4th this season.

sammsky1

So did you think that maybe we would never ever win the title again? What was worse: Not being able to see how we could become champions or knowing that the Scouse along the M62 were just so much better and winning everything in sight and rubbing your face in it?

I only started supporting United when Big Fat Ron took over so there was abit of quasi glamour and hope and we did win the odd tin cup and also signed some great players like Robbo, Olsen & Webb. But even with that context, I remember feeling very inferior to the many many glory hunting Liverpool fans that were at my school in London.

Actually as an aside, thats a good reference point about the claim that its only United that have glory hunters. At my school in London in the 1980s, I was the only boy I think in the entire school (1200+ boys) who supported United but there were 100s of Liverpool fans.

charleysurf

Do you really trust Villa and City to finish ahead of them?

sammsky1

I do. i really do.

charleysurf

The history of both clubs suggests otherwise. And Spurs as well. They'll bottle it in the end, and Liverpool will scramble together just enough good form to get into the top 4.

Ruud_boy_10

I dont. They'll F*** it up somehow.

evil_geko

Things change.

EricaNo7

i remember 1985 very well indeed - and the sad inevitability that they would win eventually, while we wouldn't.

i also remember wondering just when they would show signs of cracking, and sure enough in the early nineties chinks began to appear - i always thought dalglish was a crap manager, he'd inherited the team after all, and when he signed players like david speedie, i was convinced of it.

RK

Some super-rich person will come in and buy the club one way or another.

They won't struggle too much in the future.

sammsky1

But they have said that every year for the past 10 years. Im sure our fans did for many of the years between our 10th and 20th year of not winning the league.

At some point one must lose hope. Im sure Liverpool fans who were around in the late 80s are approaching that stage, especially given the recent problems that have had this season after last years signs of hope.

Robbo

Fuck em'..the most horrible gloating fuckers when they win..second only to celtic for triumphilism....I hope I'm dead before I have to suffer them winning the league again..the CL was bad enuff

Sarni

I think they don't even have enough quality to finish top 4. It's not the same as it was with Arsenal last year, who were 7 points behind Villa at some point as well, because Arsenal were still clearly the better side. It's not the case here as I believe that both Villa and City have at least as good squads as Liverpool, and both are some way ahead of Scousers in the league as well.

AlwaysRedwood

Maybe. But this Liverpool team is very, very poor. And the manager is deluded. The bench is shockingly weak.

I just don't see them doing it. They are looking at a Leeds type situation right now. They surely be bought, but they are not going to make the CL and after losing in the early stages this year, it will bring financial ruin.

Devilton

This. Ultimately it is the experience that will begin to tell. I expect Villa to drop points against Arsenal today, and then lose to the dippers on Tuesday. That should begin their slide...and spuds, well they're spuds aren't they. They'll win one, then lose one, then win 2, and draw 5. In the end they'll end up 5 or 6th.

As much as I'm enjoying the dippers fail in the end they will finish 4th because other teams will bottle it.

Sarni

I really find it hard to see that Liverpool will win at Villa's ground. They will be lucky to get a draw there.

Experience? Experience in what exactly does give Liverpool that edge? Last time they were in a similar position, they failed to qualify.

Sarni

Think Rafa will walk at the end of season after failing to finish in top 4, and then blame everything on the lack of money. That will divide Liverpool supporters, some of whom will agree with Rafa and the rest will blame him for poor transfer deals made and dragging them down the ladder. Nevertheless, he will get another big job, possibly in Spain or Italy, and screw up another football club.

SecondFig

And that's the key, you don't need Spurs, City and Villa to finish ahead of Liverpool - any one of them will be enough to keep Liverpool out of next years CL - and I can't see Liverpool finishing ahead of all 3

ralphie88

You don't have to be 45+ to remember United being in a mess and Liverpool being on top.

1989 and 1990 United finished 13th while Liverpool finished 1st and 2nd and won the FA Cup. In the second of those seasons United were in a relegation fight until about March. We were in much more serious trouble than Liverpool are now. Yes it was very depressing.

How did we get out? We spent our way out - bought virtually an entire new team over a couple of seasons.

Nistelrooy10

I don't think there is such thing as losing hope. You watch the team because they're your club, winning the league is secondary, but always in the back of your mind.

Liverpool are still in a good position and can make a run for top 4.

WeasteDevil

Our problems were never really that deep because there wasn't the big money in the game that there is now, and we were a rich club at the time. Everything just came together for us at exactly the right time, the youth, the Sky money, going back into Europe, etc. You really didn't need to throw big money at the problem back then. Now you do, and if you haven't got it, you face a problem. The loss of CL football for Liverpool could end up being a total disaster.

EdWeatherall

Or a godsend, as it will drive the price down as the owners could be forced to sell. But yeh, the CL revenue is very important to them

Shane Bluck

Let me tell you about the Scousers during the 80s.. I was bang in the middle of them and had it first hand.

I grew up in St.Helens which was swallowed up by the new borough of Merseyside when it was created in 1974.. I grew up on an estate full of scouse twats and I was the one and only Man. United fan on my estate..

I'd have stacks of bother with them, I hated them, they hated me.. it was game on.

Every year they would win trophies, every year we'd win fuck all.. except we'd win against them when we played them... and there was the glorious 77 final and even better the final of 85 when we nailed the filth in the semis and the blues in the final...

I even recall the Liverpool v Everton cup finals where they would all sing 'Merseyside' together and be proclaimed as such great fans.. but i knew better.. I'd seen them at Old Trafford where they spent the whole 90 minutes with arms stretched wide, singing Munich 58, I'd witnessed the hatred of them... and I will never forgive or forget.

During my school days I could never have dreamed of such a turnaround, it's fucking brilliant that we have caught and are about to totally eclipse the cunts.. they've now also had their taste of tragedy and for many years their aeroplane arms went away.. but the new younger generation are back with them.. like the scummy cunts they are.

Denis' cuff

I think most of us got sick to the teeth of mouthy twats like Emlyn Hughes gobbing off on Granada Reports as they did their weekly Liverpool Worship.

Although most of us thought it was almost our right (a legacy of the Busby years) to be winning titles as they were now doing, we were brought down to earth with a bump when we got relegated in 74. Promotion with Doc's Tartan Army was like a breath of fresh air through the club and the Stret was at it's best. Although we weren't shy when it came to spending on players, Doc brought a few through the yoofs and a few players like Coppell, Pearson and Hill from the lower divisions for very modest fees. Yep, it was painful watching them clean up every year, but I reckon it's worse for them now because they had a greater degree of success from the mid 70s and a whole generation grew up knowing nothing but success there. (familiar?) Hard for us to believe there are people in their early 20s who don't ever remember them winning the title and I'm sure this makes a lot of us who remember, very wary of Fergie retiring.

OldRed1

In the 88/89 season united finished 11th, Liverpool won the cup and were 2nd in the league which was won by the Arse. In the 89/90 season United were 13th in the league and won the cup, going on to win the EUFA cup-winners cup, and Liverpool won the league. I believe that those cup wins were the start of everything that came later. In the EUFA side there were 3 home grown (Hughes, Sharpe and Blackmore) and 2 sustitutes (Walsh and Robins).

Great Hat

Losing hope and losing support are different things. I think after losing the title after the ten game unbeaten run in 85/86, or blowing the league with some awful results (West Ham, Notts Forest) towards the end of 91/92 would have made some Reds wonder if we'd ever win the league, but that doesn't mean you don't support United as much. And winning the league isn't 'secondary' as such. Reds went to watch United even if we weren't great, but it still hurt watching the dippers or whoever else lift the title in the '70s and '80s.

ralphie88

11th, I stand corrected. Still not a season to write home about, or one that is even comparable to the current run of form Liverpool are in. In spring 1990 we were fighting a relegation battle, we'd not won a trophy for 5 years and not won the league for 23 years. But you never give up hope - the hope for us that season was a stay up and to win the cup. We did both.

No idea what the EUFA cup thing you talk of is, but I remember us winning the European Cup-Winners' Cup.

anver

They've turned the corner after the win against the Wolves. It is a win win from now on.

sammsky1

Sure, Im in my mid 30s and remember Big Rons era very clearly and so remember 1989 & 1990 very well!! This thread is trying to pinpoint the feeling and emotions just before that era ... as in my opinion, before Ron was appointed, things looked very bleak?

The similarity between our situation then and Liverpool's now seems almost identical... certainly when i manage to speak rationally with my Liverpool supporting friends, they seem to have no answers, have no idea how they can ever get out of this rut. It must be a terrible feeling!!

sammsky1

one could argue Liverpool have the same advantages now and so are in a similar situation. Sure they cant match out finances but they are hardly poor given that that they still get 40k+ attendances to every game and lots of TV money, and as we all now, the belief that Rafa has been hindered in the transfer market is a Rafa created myth created to divert blame for his failures.

I think the reasons for their very dodgy balance sheet right now is extremely poor return on investment by Rafa in the considerable investments made by the board. In his grand plan, Im sure he predicted he would have own the league by now and have created a stable and winning team, so that the club could now divert funds towards building the new stadium that is so desperately required. Not being successful at football puts all the other plans on hold ... which is why not getting into the CL will be such a catastrophe.

Despite the win vs Wolves yesterday, was interesting to see die hards on Sky like Jamie Redknapp and Phil Thompson still being very unsure if Rafa could dleiver on his promise that they will finish 4th.

sammsky1

I remember being told by older non United fans that our club was a joke, much like Newcastle is derided today. Kudos to all our match going fans from those days though who still turned up every week packing out Old Trafford and making us easily the best supported club in the land despite the shoddy returns from the pitch