Le Havre pissed with United

Cal?

If the French don't like it, they can always withdraw from the EU.

Forever Red

What disturbs me about the whole matter is its not that we're talking about rational adults making an informed decision, its kids .

The clubs approach the parents with promises of money etc and its they who they turn. Who gives a toss if the player is happy at his academy and being coached well and will develop anyway. So long as the the buying club get a bargain and the parents get a new kitchen is all that matters.

RedPhil1957

The status quo was not built on the players in the academy wherever they are garnered. United was a more attractive proposition to players than Barnsely long before young players started moving to the club from abroad

The real increase in power of the big clubs started with the ending of the minimum wage and set in concrete with the Bosman ruling.

Sonny Feehan

Agreed, especially in the case of Edwards who was pursued by every club in the country and who we snatched from under the nose of Wolves who were arguably a bigger club than United at the time.
The huge difference between then and now was that United were the first club to have an actual youth policy with consideration for the all round welfare of the young player, a huge plus when dealing with parents. ( No agents in those days)

Obviously we now live in a different world but I think the excellence of the youth culture at Old Trafford has been passed down and still stands us in good stead.

RedPhil1957

How do you know any of that is true? Not many clubs would want to waste money and time on an unhappy kid who hated the club!

Forever Red

I have had 1st hand experience of it and know that it happens

Alwyn

Pretty shameful tbh. Just hope it's worth it!

Striker10

but as you will acknowledge it isn't always like that. It's not like everyone has the same thought process

Therefore what can people do?

There could perhaps be something implimented where if it doesn't work out the club that lost the player had sole rights to bringing him back - perhaps for the amount they got compensated.

I'm sure we would be annoyed if it happened to us but we had work permit frustrations for years. We have this 90 minute rule in place. Everyone has frustrations

If we offered them 5 million compensation...even 1 million probably - I doubt these clubs would be talking about the ethics of it.

devilish

Its not finger pointing its just the way things are. You can't go against freedom of movement since its a law shared by all EU nations. On the other hand its possible to give more money to the small sides to survive. Im sure that those who wants to teach us morals will do just that.

Forever Red

We can stop approaching children and not allow them to sign a pro contract until they are 18 years old . Just because everyone does it doesn't make it right. United should be bigger than this

jdmufc

however much i disagree with the practice, we just cant afford to be "bigger" than this

samabachan

Right. So all the parents are shit and that is someone's fault. Makes sense.

moses

There are many ways to combat the problem. Bringing Italian laws into line with British laws would stop young Italians leaving except those who really wanted to and not contravene EU law.

Working at reducing the wealth and quality gap beetween the top and bottom clubs and regions is not the same as restricting movement.

I wonder if all the people on here arguing for 'freedom' defended madrid in their summer of pursuits, especially of our player. We got 80m and some were still accusing madrid of lacking in ethics.

moses

Exactly, this is what I'm trying to say, it's not really anything to do with United, it's to do with the structure of the game. Nobdody expects United alone to try and fix the problem, but some here are unable to be objective.

Not saying that all who disagree with me are bias either btw.

devilish

But why should we do that? I mean why should a player be kept in a substandard youth academy when they can join the best at a very young age and be shaped at top level standard? We all heard that Macheda would probably had stopped from playing football if Manchester United didn't stepped in. Luckily we stepped in and now the kid can enjoy a decent career in football.

Few months ago there were a discussion about this on the Italian media. Some experienced head got up and said look, Italian clubs tend to be conservative with kids. They pay them peanuts, they send them on loan to the Serie C clubs for years to then end up inserting them like pawns into some money + players deal for some local star. If that kid is lucky he may end up at a big club but that's just one step closer to stardom because managers change regularly and a player may easily end up relegated in the reserves once again. Let me remind you that we are talking about the lucky ones here. Those who can actually afford sticking to football.

Now considering that from the 4 italian kids United had, one is currently leading Villareal's forwards and the other one is featuring in Manchester United's team at 17 years of age, who could blame these kids for going there? Would we even hear about Macheda if United didn't stepped in?

I think that he was right.

Cal?

Let the likes of Arsenal & Chelsea pick up all the talented youngsters. What a great idea.

If the French or Italians aren't happy, it's up to them to change their policies, not whinge about it.

devilish

What you don't understand is that youth talent will do what is best for them. There had been players who had refused to join us in the past. Santon and Ramsey are two of them.

As stated if they really give a damn about small teams, the first thing that they should be doing is offering them a decent share of the media money. Smaller clubs in Italy struggle to make ends meet not because we take one or two kids from them but because of that.

And let us not make them look like victims or champions of morals because that is not the case. What we do to them, they do it to African and South American clubs with the only difference that we don't encourage unlicenced agents who wouldn't mind to throw kids in the streets if things doesn't work out.

devilish

But that would mean showing some commitment to these kids and offering them a contract which would also means giving them rights and money. They don't want that. What they do want is to keep on exploiting these kids without showing them any commitment at all + without others being able to do that too.

devilish

Is it always the case though? Manchester United had allowed 2 Italian kids to play in the CL in the past few years (Rossi and Macheda). Ill give you a challenge. Pls name me at least 4 other 17 - 19 year old italian strikers in the past 3 - 4 years who had not trained at the United academy and had played in the CL. Kids are coming to United not just because of the money but because they have a chance of making it at top level and at a fairly young age. There are clubs out there who believe that one of the finest talent in the nation (Giovinco) shouldnt even be considered for a first team place because he is too young. We are talking about a 22 years old for god's sake.

sdb4884

Anyone know anything about Paul Pogba?

moses

It doesn't matter how it was 'built', but that it doesn't become static and things are allowed to develop and not stop.

moses

Disgreeing and not understanding are not the same thanks.

And the fact we are not alone doing it and the people we do it to do it other people is irrelevant.

And if you read my arguments, which you seem to be arguing against, I have all big clubs pooled together, so using Ramsay as an example is irrelevant, he would only be relevant if he stayed put.

I have said this is not solely about United countless times, so maybe it's not me having trouble understanding.

devilish

The smaller clubs are doing the same I am afraid. Unfortunately its attracts more interest in naming Manchester United rather then Le Haivre and Udinese.

moses

That is true, but the bigger the club the more extensive the scouting, and say what you will , be it Barca or Udinese, scouring the world for kids weakens the quality of the game at grass roots level, but some modern United fans don't seem to give a shit about that. No 'glory' at grass roots maybe?

In it's logical conclusion, It's SKY tv's wet dream. Get all the talent in one league, get some swishy graphics and sell it globally, and everyone will watch it because the local produce is shit. It's worse now than 10 or 15 years ago and I dread what it will be like 10 years hence. I'd also like to hear the arguments for and against on here if our scouting system fell to shit and the dippers and gooners were getting all the talent.

RedPhil1957

[QUOTE=moses;6653308]That is true, but the bigger the club the more extensive the scouting, and say what you will , be it Barca or Udinese, scouring the world for kids weakens the quality of the game at grass roots level, but some modern United fans don't seem to give a shit about that. No 'glory' at grass roots maybe?

In it's logical conclusion, It's SKY tv's wet dream. Get all the talent in one league, get some swishy graphics and sell it globally, and everyone will watch it because the local produce is shit. It's worse now than 10 or 15 years ago and I dread what it will be like 10 years hence. I'd also like to hear the arguments for and against on here if our scouting system fell to shit and the dippers and gooners were getting all the talent.[/QUOTE



I just don't buy into your theory or conclusion. How the hell does it weaken the grass roots league? Do you for one minute think that two extra years at a small club in Africa or South America is going to greatly enhance that countries football; rubbish!
In fact I would say the result of youngsters moving to one of the big european clubs has an opposite effect to damaging their home league. Every player from these so called lesser leagues that makes it at a United or Barca etc inspires 100's of young kids to play the game back home and strive for the same.

RedPhil1957

The fact there are bad parents has nothing to do with football its part of the world we live in.

We had an example of a player who moved at a much younger age from his parents to follow the dream of getting to the top, Ronaldo.

Nistelrooy10

I don't think we have to be like other clubs, I'd rather keep our image clean. Kiko thing was somewhat different but I don't know details about him. This thing with La Havre is a bit wrong. The way I understand it we didn't even tell them we're talking to his parents? I don't often criticize United off the pitch, but this is a bit low class, even though it's legal.

Chris H

Depends on what variety of English you speak. Both mean the same thing in my part of the world.

devilish

Its not always the case though. Ajax may not have the resources of Madrid but they still have one of the finest scouting nets in the world, while Udinese has the finest foreign based scouting net in the Serie A. These things had been going on for decades. Italian, French, Belgian and Spanish clubs had been poaching kids (both at European level but expecially for abroad) for free for decades. They had used the fact that they couldn't give them pro contracts to avoid giving them rights and offloading them easily (ie much of the time to the streets) whenever something doesn't work out. You wont hear FIFA/UEFA complaining about this back then. Its now that the English clubs are taking some of these kids that the panic button had been pushed.

jojojo

The whole contract issue in football is bad and getting worse. There's something like a thousand footballers leaving Brazil each year for "contracts" in Europe. Some of them after compensation to their clubs (like the Da Silvas), some of them owned by agencies, some of them paying go-betweens for trials with clubs. The position of young African players is even worse.

Globalisation and big money makes it inevitable, but so do the success stories. Messi left home at 13 to go to Barcelona; Ronaldo went to Lisbon at the same age (1400km - we're not talking about a 90min commuting radius here).

For the Pogba case. I don't know if it's fundamentally different to us nicking Giggs off City. At 16, the lad and his parents have probably thought about it a few times - who knows what they said to Le Havre and what promises they did/didn't get.

Some of the clubs say we shouldn't be allowed to sign players until they're 18but at 17 a player can be in our first team - that's rare in European football. Free movement of labour in the EU is a legal right. It's up to the FAs to set rules for contracts and conduct that work for the clubs and the players.

Meanwhile as Le Havre recruits younger kids from a not-90 minute radius, suggesting that United are "trading in minors" for recruiting a 16 year old is ridiculous. All they mean is they'd like a slice of the action.

Chris H

United responds.

redpie

It may be morally wrong but United are just doing what every English club is entitled to do under current law. The only difference is if it is United it gets flagged and made into a story. The rest of the Prem clubs do the same and nothing is said.

RedPhil1957

Good post as usual, some are talking about 16 year olds as if they were 8 or 9. They can start work, marry and have kids of their own at sixteen for fecks sake (younger in many counties) so it is certainly not too young to start a career.

My daughter left home at 16 because she wanted to be a professional in her profession and has had a fantastic 10 years; at the time she left school in her class there was one girl with a baby and another 4 girls pregnant (that everybody knew about) and you lot are worried about a Kid going to Old Trafford at 16 --------Jesus unbelievable!!

Striker10

Sadly we don't hear the kids view on this. I don't think he's sat at home thinking it's a step down.

He'll see all the kids we have in our squad - and be over the moon I imagine.

This big money talk - we don't know what's been offered but maybe the money is to buy a house in England because his parents are clearly not going to stay in France.

This is football. It's part of the game sadly. Some people love to moan.

Don't Kill Bill

If he stays at Le Havre and does well he gets to play in the French league being paid next to fuck all. If he comes to united and does well he will be blooded into a Champions League team and paid huge money. On what basis if offered those choices would you choose to stay?

Watching the Serbian under 19's the other day it occurred to me that the sooner our new signing gets on a pitch with players of the same level the more he will benefit.

No doubt plans are already in place to stop the terrible uprooting of 16 year old players, to come to United, who would have nurtured and trained them and looked after them probably better than any other club. Mean while those clubs who are horrified by our behaviour will be offering the chance without contract or rights to thousands of young hopefuls to earn a living thousands of miles from home. If they don't make it, tough luck and move on to the next desperate teenage.

This of course will not be stopped because it is happening at clubs who are not as high profile as united nor are they English.

kouroux

I know the wages here are much inferior to the ones in England but seriously you cannot say that.If the players is good he'll earn well enough and will possibly look to move abroad to even earn more.

kklm05

I agree with you. I think we all will be against this if it's the other way round.

kouroux

What do you exactly mean ?

Don't Kill Bill

And if he isn't good enough?

From his point of view why take the risk. If he is good enough he will make it at United and that is about as good as it gets in football. If he isn't good enough he could always do a Bellion and go back to France.

In the mean time he is earning money on a contract which he can't earn elsewhere in the EU and has better players to play with, which every coach and player I have heard speak on the issue, says aids development.
.

kouroux

Easy there my friend, don't turn this into something else.I just said it's not like he was gonna struggle with life if he stayed in France, that's all.