Our tactics in the first leg

amolbhatia100

I thought the first leg was the most enjoyable United game for a really long time due to being the meeting such big clubs and in general being a really really entertaining game, but does anyone here feel that for a club of our magnitude (in terms of player pulling power and financial power) we maybe shouldn't have to play such a workman like fashion, even against one of the best teams around? Rooney stuck on the left, Cleverley dropped, Phil Jones in the middle who can't really pass, it's not exactly taking the opposition on on your own terms.

I realize we went to Madrid to win and were incredibly efficient. We should have scored more than one and that's quite a feat away at the bernabau. But for some reason, I personally want to see a bit more "class" from a United side so littered with quality. I mean there was barely any quality passing interchanges by us. We pretty much abandoned that completely and banked on a very very direct game.

In fact, a game I'd like to draw a contrast with is the one we played against Arsenal at Highbury, the 2002-03 season "title decider". We sat back then as well and tried to hit Arsenal on the counter but our passing and control over the ball when we had it was excellent. They (I think) had the ball more, at least territorially, but we were quality in possession with much more intent and incisiveness.

I've of late become less focused on results and more on attractiveness/fluidity when it comes to United so maybe that has something to do with it. Anyone else feel a similar way? Is it necessary to play this way because of our midfield? Or is it just a recognition that they have players with superior technical abilities?

I have to add that this is just a thought and not my main take away from the game. It was fantastic and I'm hugely excited about the return leg.

RK

I think it's unrealistic to expect us to be able to show our quality against every team, particularly the good teams. I'm happy with the way we played away from home against (supposedly...) the second best team in the world.

amolbhatia100

Why not, though? Bayern took on Madrid and did very well, as did Dortmund. I don't think Bayern as of last season and Dortmund of this one are on a different level to us or anything.

Plechazunga

I think given the two squads we pretty much had to do that. In principle I'd like us to play beautiful football every game but until we're back to our best I'm not sure it'll fly.

Besides, even when we were a great side in 07/8 we went to Barca and parked the bus. SAF's learnt from experience that in Europe you play the long game as otherwise you get mugged, however good you are.

Quinton Fortune

Real stuggle to make clear cut chances when theyre on the front foot, theyre a far better counter attacking side. Im sure fergies main consideration was not getting caught short over attacking.

Given ourselves a great chance!

amolbhatia100

Is our squad much worse than theirs, or is this just about central midfield not capable of handling theirs? Barca for me are a different kettle of fish to Madrid. No team can take Barca head on, really. As I mentioned, both Bayern and Dortmund have done so against Madrid as have other sides.

Sarni

No one other than Barcelona and possibly Bayern could play their game at Bernabeu. We don't have the squad to attack them at their own turf, had we played Madrid in 2007-09 we'd have beaten them convincingly no doubt but currently squad wise they are easily a match for us if not better and you cannot take these risks in the first leg of a CL tie. 8 times out of 10 you'd end up with a loss big enough it'd make the second leg almost pointless.

amolbhatia100

Sure, but even if we choose to counter attack why not counter the way we did against Arsenal all those years ago by passing through the opposition? I'm genuinely interested in why we played the long ball so much yesterday as opposed to the usual passing counter attack?

RedLars

It's a fine line really, in terms of what fans can and will expect. I don't think anybody will care that we catenaccio our way to success, but the moment it doesn't work out as good as everyone will say the would rather go down guns-a-blazing.

Edit: Case in point would be the Spurs match. We were seconds away from a great but ugly win, and I doubt there would have been much complaint afterwards if we'd kept the lead until the whistle went. We didn't though, and the Caf went ballistic!

Talking Vulture

We got our tactics spot on imo. Reduced them to pot shot from long range.

Defensively sound and good going forward. Disrupted their play superbly well. It's a 2 legged game - if we went gung ho, we could be out by now. Fergie called it right and we got a great result. We'll do them at Old Trafford and people will talk about how we won the battle in Spain

amolbhatia100

That's the thing. It did work in the 1st leg and I acknowledge that but I'm interested in knowing if it was necessary.

amolbhatia100

Definitely a great result that IMO puts us in the front seat. However, I'm interesting in whether it was the only way we could have set up and if so, why.

amolbhatia100

Rightfully so IMO. It was fecking Spurs. I've never seen Arsenal try and scrape a win against them and they usually beat them too. They're simply not that good a team. And we're far better.

Plechazunga

I think they have more world-class players, yes. In our side you really fear only Rooney and RVP. At their best Nani and Vidic, yes, but when were they last at their best?

With Real you fear Oezil, Benzema, Di Maria to an extent, and then Ronaldo who's like Rooney and RVP put together in terms of fear-factor.

And then their 'equivalent' players are better - Alonso's better than Carrick, Khedira's better than whoever plays next to him, Marcelo's more of a threat than Rafael at the moment. Our defence is better, true, though Casillas in currently better thn DDG. But I don't think it's enough to compensate.

I'm not saying they're a much better side - they don't seem to be as much of a unit as us. But it does mean if we play at their place we have to take care.

amolbhatia100

I'd agree that barring defence, they have more quality than we do, but then everyone said the same about Bayern last season and Dortmund this season, neither of whom abandoned their game out of fear for Madrid? Both took them on and got favorable results.

Gazza

It's clear from the way we've played in Europe the last 6 years that the players are used to the tactical approach we used in Madrid, and it's no accident we've arrived at this strategy. It's actually gripping to watch and I don't mind it, I get a buzz out of watching how focused the players are on doing their jobs. I loved Wednesday's match and felt United played a big part for the away team.

LR7

Madrid are very good at preying on teams who dominate possession and try to attack them. They hit them on the counter attack better than most other teams. We didn't let them play to that strength, and by giving them possession we limited their counter attacking threat. Spot on for me, although I can understand why it's not the easiest to watch because we're used to seeing a much more dominant and attacking Manchester United, but I think we need to understand that to get the results you have to play differently against different teams.

One thing I am personally missing though is in form wingers. The Valencia from the end of last season would have been immense in a game like that imo. Rooney wouldn't have been needed to protect Rafael and so would have been free to do Kagawa's role and help nullify Alonso. Playing Welbeck, Rooney and Kagawa in the wide areas, which has been done more often than not this season, means we don't get many crosses in. Madrids biggest weaknesses were probably their fullbacks and if we had in form wingers we would have been better poised to exploit that. I'm hoping more than anything they find form by the second leg. I'm still cautious about us going full steam ahead at OT because despite our own attacking threat, I don't us to leave ourselves too open.

Brwned

Play our natural game against the big guns and we'll get murdered, that was shown over and over again in the 90s and even more recently in the finals against Barca. There's nothing fun or enjoyable about playing an open game if it means the other team just take you apart. I think our tactical versatility in the last half-decade has been one of our biggest strengths to be honest.

Gazza

Yep. I kept going back to the ~1996 team in my mind on Wednesday and thinking, "Christ, imagine if we went gung-ho here." I found myself proud that United are actually equipped to do what a team like Juventus would have done to us in 1996.

paceme

Madrid are set up to destroy teams who play their own game against them. It would of been daft to play our usual game there. Not because they are so much better, but because it just so happens that their particular strengths would play to our weaknesses.

TheReligion

Hmm. I do see where the OP is coming from but I think times change and you play to your strengths, which believe it or not when on top form is our defence.

We (yes I am going to say it) still lack the players in the middle of the park who can keep possession and not crack under pressure in comparison to the very top European sides. We saw the other night that one miss placed pass can cause mayhem when you are attacking. Jones and Kagawa will tell you that. That can be the difference in Europe and whilst Cleverley is improving, Carrick still needs that extra bit of time on the ball you don't always get and Anderson is unpredictable. We have even tried Rooney in that area but his short passing has never been as accurate as his killer ball or long game, so again it doesn't particularly cut it with the very best.

Retaining possession well in the middle opens up spaces elsewhere so at times, when we are incapable of matching the opposition, we have to rely on the go to long passes to try and take pressure off the back four. It really is the only way.

I do think it would look prettier if we had wingers who were firing at the moment and we have seen this approach work well in the PL, like against Chelsea away, but Valencia and Young were both looking sharp and created outlets on either side, which again helps take pressure off the central players.

Amar__

Most of the teams play on counter attacks in away games, even big teams. We sent quite offensive team on the pitch looking through players(welbeck, kagawa, rooney, rvp are all attacking players in first place), it's just our style of defending that make people to think that we defend through the whole game and that's not true. We defend deep even against the likes of southampton, wigan, etc.. We created lot of chances, we could easily score three or four goals, and we had decent spell of possesion, it's not like Madrid had ball 80% of the time, so I wouldn't call it too defensive tbf.

I'm sure if first game was at Old Trafford, Mourinho would play similar tactics, one that relies on counterattacking football.

KM

Even Real Madrid sacrifice their natural game against Barcelona. It's naive to expect that we will try to play free flowing football against Madrid at their home.

In my opinion, we were very good in the match and had more clear cut chances against them then I expected.

kafta

I agree with most of what has been said on here. Its also a little bit about maturity in terms of europe. Our regular game is expansive, with two central midfielders, leaving our back line exposed to counter attacks. Against a team who specializes in counter-attacking football, it would have been daft to go and play our regular game. The smarter approach would be to be solid, defend in numbers and try and nick something on the counter.

That said, i really do think that this is only necessary against Barcelona and Madrid, for different reasons (barca being better than us, and madrid being a team whos strengths fits our weaknesses perfectly.)

Comsmit

I thought at times we defended far too deep but we squeezed the space very well in the second half. None of their forwards really had any gaps to turn into or fashion clear-cut chances. It was an effective performance but I truly believe we needed that second....there will be a higher goal count at Old Trafford I feel. I'm pleased with a disciplined performance, with few errors....it will breed confidence amongst the players. I think Ferguson got his selection and setup pretty much spot on, as usual.

In the second leg I think United can learn from Dortmund and play an intense pressing game, force Real into errors higher up the pitch. I doubt we will dominate possession but I expect to see Cleverley replace Jones, simply for his ability to link play and keep hold of the ball, which will need to be much better than at the Bernabeu. Valencia should come in for Kagawa and Welbeck retained. I agree with Jose when he said it will go right to the whistle.

Bilbo

It was a supremely intelligent away performance against a team many thought beforehand would murder us.

Cold_Boy

Agree completely with the OP.

fishfingers15

Nothing remotely romantic about chasing the ball for 90 minutes against Barcelona or trailing 3-0 to Real Madrid/Bayern because we held up the fine United tradition of attacking and playing a 4-4-2.

nemanja15

It was the sort of performance that got us to the final in 07/08, 08/09 and 10/11. Workman-like, everyone working for each other and defending as a unit whilst maintaining an attacking threat. It works when we pull it off, so why not do it? I got no less pleasure than coming away undefeated from the Bernabeu than I would have done beating someone 6-0 at home. It was great to see us be able to nullify one of the top two sides in the world and, on another day, we could even have beaten them.

shaggy

This.

Perhaps with our 1999 team of Giggs, Keane, Scholes and Beckham in midfield but unfortunately Carrick, Jones and Kagawa aren't exactly on the same level.

fishfingers15

IMHO, it's not only about our team. We could have Keane, Scholes, Beckham and Giggs at their pomp and against these opponents, they'll still struggle for possession. We may probably do a bit more offensively, but we'll still be suffocated because they keep the damn ball all the time.

We are not playing Saviola and Kluivert anymore and we should respect that.

paceme

Tbh I don't get the critisism of us being workman like. We always play 'workmanlike' we aren't a team who depend on flair often, Sir Alex usually looks for hard workers in players he signs.

shaggy

And it's at the Bernabeu...

If a Bayern, Dortmund or Juventus put in that performance instead of us and I watched it I'd be saying after the game "very solid performance, dangerous opponents" and certainly not moaning at their style or tactics (which seemed fine to me...)

Rowem

I simply couldn't disagree more.

Just no.

Care_de_Bobo

First of all Dortmund played them in the group stages which means that, even though it was a tough group, there was a lot less pressure on Dortmund, knock-out football is a different kettle of fish entirely.

As for Bayern, they played the first leg at home so were bound to attack in the first leg.

Why not wait until after the OT leg before judging the tactics, a score draw is a great result at the Bernabeau regardless of Real's form and there's no shame in having to adapt our game for specific opposition, almost every top manager does this in Europe, even Mourinho.

Varun_Utd

The occasion and the venue plays a big role Amol. Also the fact that Madrid are at their best when the opposition commits men in attack and leaves spaces behind because unlike Barca, they build up lightning quick attacks and take seconds to go from one end to the other.

Playing an attacking team at the Bernebau would have been a huge risk and considering the occasion and our defensive frailty this season, an unnecessary one.

At home, we'd be more positive. Clev would start in all probability and that'd pretty much automatically see us do better with the ball. Its incredible how much of an impact his presence has in our game.

But, it'd again be naive to expect us to go the full hilt. We wont. We'l again set up to counter Ronaldo, makes sense to do it too.

Danillaco

This. A lot was said that they had 28 shots against us, but more than half was from long range...

jojojo

Madrid play to their strengths.

They're a great counterattacking team. They like teams who overcommit - when they score first it's a big advantage to them.

If they're allowed to keep the ball as they come forward, they're relentless and they'll make so many chances, that even if they aren't great chances the percentages are in their favour.

Our tactics nullified their strengths and we even scored first. Tactically, we could scarcely have been better.

Now look at the forward line: Rooney, Kagawa, RvP, Welbeck. If they'd been firing as well as they can, we'd have looked great. Plenty of talent. No natural wingers in there either, if we had on form wingers then I suspect we'd have lined up differently. I still wonder about giving that central role to Kagawa on a day when we had Jones in midfield, but without our wingers maybe there wasn't much choice.

We were efficient rather than beautiful, but I don't think that was a tactical "choice" - it was just how it played out. And we were (at least) one half of a very good match.

amolbhatia100

That's my question actually. Why can't we play our natural game against the big guns? What's keeping us from being able to do it? Is it the midfield? Because in every other aspect were not far off any of them (barring barca). I think we alter our tactics these days in these big games more than all of the top teams.
I don't know, do bayern or Dortmund change their style completely away from home against each other? City certainly don't do in away from home in the league whereas we do.

I'm not arguing against doing it. I'm interested in why exactly we seem to do it more than any other top team whereas the rest more or less play their normal game everywhere.

thepolice123

In recent years, you can tell that we never really had our own natural game, which is incidentally our biggest strength. Even when we had Ronaldo, Tevez and Rooney, we would seldom see the same team and same formation week in week out. The following season we played Ronaldo in the centre-forward position and 09-10 saw us in a rigid 4-5-1 formation.

I really doubt we can have a barca-like footballing philosophy that can dominate and let them play their own game against anyone as long as Fergie's still in charge.