Sir ALEX FERGUSON- Rooney has been misused

Name Changed · 24th July 2008, 10:09

It was quite obvious all along that Rooney was being misused. It was a disgrace to see how he was used sometimes. He is probably the most naturally gifted footballer at United and the team should be built around him, not him filling in different gaps now and again. Maybe now we will get to see the best of Wayne.

GusHiddink · 24th July 2008, 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by quethenoo

Surely it was blindingly obvious that its his best position, but SAF was just doing what he needed to do at the time. This is hardly earth shattering.

Needed to do at the time?? eh? Who forced his hand to buy striker that plays in the same position as rooney?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Count Duckula

Except, Gus, that doesn't prove you right at all.

SAF actually goes as far as saying that Rooney is just as good leading the line, as he was doing a lot of last season with Tevez behind him. What Ferguson appears to be talking about was the shunting of Rooney to the wings half of the time.

So you've not been "proven right" at all, in the sense that you seem to think this makes your oft-spoken beliefs of Rooney as a pure in-the-hole striker his best position. Ferguson is not saying that Rooney has been misused and is at his best behind the main striker. He actually says he's at his best through the middle, whether that is behind the main striker or, indeed, as the main striker.

So get off your high horse.

PMSL, twist it however you want my point is made, and made well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcus agrippa

wait a second: first you berate SAF for being a tactically clueless manager who only gets lucky occasionally, and then you turn and applaud him for pointing this out? - so which is it? - is he an idiot or not for agreeing with you?

if yes - check yourself.

if no - he wasn't clueless to begin with, proving you the idiot.

either option pleases me.

LOL- read the posts again before trying to misquote me. Anyone who really knows anything about ferguson knows tactics are his weak point. I didnt say he was weak full stop, he's the best manager in the world but tactics is without doubt his weak point. His best moments often come when the game is seemingly done and basically he says right fuck tactics..lets get after these.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowem

Regards to the Gus slating...quite pathetic really.

It's clear to anyone that SAF is saying we have misused Rooney - and by that he means by playing him as the main striker. We hardly played him wide at all last season, and when we did it was quite effective - i.e. away at Roma. Granted he was poor at the Nou Camp, but I dont think these comments are with regards to the couple games where he played out wide. It's obvious, to me anyway, that he is talking more about playing him as the lead striker when he mentions "other positions". He can't exactly come out and say that though, seeing as he has claimed to be happy with the current squad with regards to the Berbatov situation, comments which I hope are pure lies as part of the transfer market game of tug-of-war and nothing more.

Too much sense in this post. I can handle the slating, its comical.

The very fact ferguson is going for a front man and willing to spend that much tells you all you need to know about where he thinks rooney's best position is...unless you think berbatov is goingt to play in the hole!!

GusHiddink · 24th July 2008, 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Name Changed

It was quite obvious all along that Rooney was being misused. It was a disgrace to see how he was used sometimes. He is probably the most naturally gifted footballer at United and the team should be built around him, not him filling in different gaps now and again. Maybe now we will get to see the best of Wayne.

Spot on, and was my point.

He should be on the same level as ronnie. You dont sacrifice players of his calibre, you build teams round them. And i dont belive playing rooney in his position will take away much if anything from ronnie. Overall the team will be better

FlawlessThaw · 24th July 2008, 10:42

Don't know what the fuss is, he said Rooney has been misused to the disdvantage of Wayne Rooney but not that Rooney has been misused for the team.

Ferguson's prime concern is Manchester United and how it will benefit them not Wayne Rooney and how it will benefit the player.

GusHiddink · 24th July 2008, 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

If this thread is a celebration because you've outed Jason as a know nothing cretin, bad news mate, the ship has sailed on that one already. We've known it for years

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruud_boy_10

How many positions did Ronaldo play, and how many goals did he score

The problem is english players need to learn to be more flexible.

eh?? whats this got to do with the price of bread?? ronaldo played about 2 or 3 positions.....wide left, wide right and upfront rarely. And guess what he was a total waste up front.

Rooney (a striker in case you forgot) has played left wing, right wing, right wingback, left wingback, rarely in the hole and right up front.

GusHiddink · 24th July 2008, 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlawlessThaw

Don't know what the fuss is, he said Rooney has been misused to the disdvantage of Wayne Rooney but not that Rooney has been misused for the team.

Ferguson's prime concern is Manchester United and how it will benefit them not Wayne Rooney and how it will benefit the player.

But this is where the real debate kicks in. My point is that that sentence doesnt work.

When you have someone as good as rooney you cant be saying the team is benefiting overall when he's not being used properly imo.

No one would say aye zidane's been sacrificed for the team...its a nonsense. He's at his best as good as anything we've got. But ronnie is on a different level these days due to our mis use of him.

FlawlessThaw · 24th July 2008, 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by GusHiddink

But this is where the real debate kicks in. My point is that that sentence doesnt work.

When you have someone as good as rooney you cant be saying the team is benefiting overall when he's not being used properly imo.

No one would say aye zidane's been sacrificed for the team...its a nonsense. He's at his best as good as anything we've got. But ronnie is on a different level these days due to our mis use of him.

Effectively you can, if Rooney's misuse has in some part lead to Ronaldo be able to play off him and score 40 goals. The team has then benefitted.

The ideal scenario would be Rooney playing off Saha but for large parts of last season that was not possible.

Name Changed · 24th July 2008, 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlawlessThaw

Effectively you can, if Rooney's misuse has in some part lead to Ronaldo be able to play off him and score 40 goals. The team has then benefitted.

The ideal scenario would be Rooney playing off Saha but for large parts of last season that was not possible.

I don't think Rooney playing off Saha would be ideal.

And I don't see how not playing Wayne to his full potential had benefitted Ronaldo. Ronaldo may have scored 40+ goals or even more with Wayne playing in his proper role. There is no reason why Rooney and Ronaldo can't play in the same team together with both of them in their best roles.

MUFCgal · 24th July 2008, 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by devilish

The best way to use Rooney is to play him as a 'link man' just behind the main striker. Wayne on the other hand needs to change his attitude. He need to be less aggressive and concentrate more on his job (that of creating chances in front of goal) rather then play deep and win the ball.

I agree, he would be suited best playing around the main striker up front. I think if he's used in that sort of manner, he'll be on fire the new season

MadDogg · 24th July 2008, 11:36

Basically, his best postion is behind the main striker in any formation. Also, I have no problem with Rooney playing on the 'wings' in a proper 4231. In fact, I'd play him in that left wing position in my strongest team. It's certainly not a normal wing spot where he has to constantly hug the touchline and just bring in crosses. In fact, he played there in what was one of our greatest ever performances in the 7-1 demolition of Roma.

But obviously we do not want him wide in a 442 or 451 formation. That is where he is seriously mis-used.

FlawlessThaw · 24th July 2008, 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Name Changed

I don't think Rooney playing off Saha would be ideal.

And I don't see how not playing Wayne to his full potential had benefitted Ronaldo. Ronaldo may have scored 40+ goals or even more with Wayne playing in his proper role. There is no reason why Rooney and Ronaldo can't play in the same team together with both of them in their best roles.

Personally and this is just my opinion I don't think Ronaldo would have scored 40+ goals if we played a standard 4-4-2 with Ronaldo predominantly staying on the wing and Rooney playing off the striker. Ronaldo has benefitted the most from the interchanging system we currently play it gives him, a winger more freedom to roam into the box and score goals.

Pogue Mahone · 24th July 2008, 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlawlessThaw

Personally and this is just my opinion I don't think Ronaldo would have scored 40+ goals if we played a standard 4-4-2 with Ronaldo predominantly staying on the wing and Rooney playing off the striker. Ronaldo has benefitted the most from the interchanging system we currently play it gives him, a winger more freedom to roam into the box and score goals.

I agree entirely.

Really interesting article last season from one of the more clued in journos, points out that we play a formation involving "quadrangles" or whetever the Italian word for that is, "quadrigglios"?) where we have a front four in a unit, with no fixed positions, playing more or less where they want. When we lose possesion, two of the front four tuck back, to form a defensive midfield unit of four, with the two central midfielders behind them.

It's the same formation/tactics used by Roma and Portugal and it's a direct result of the influence of Queroz.

I actually think it's been a good few years since we last played a conventional 442. Be interesting to see if we go a bit more "old skool" now that Carlos is gone.

Red For Ever · 24th July 2008, 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by GusHiddink

Got to say i was PMSL when i read this.

The sheer amount of times ive been on here arguing this very point only to be called all names under the sun. There you have it folks, from the horses mouth.

It gives me great hope that if we get berbatov finally...finally we'll play rooney in his final position on a regular basis...

JASON read it and weep you clueless pleb

Theres a whole army of you cretins but i can only remember him at the moment.

PMSL

Im confused
You claim above to have been on this forum many times
Do Spurs have a forum ?
Do you ever get time to go on that as well
If you do as well as being on here many times as you say
Then I cant help wonder
Do yo have a life
Do you have a job

Just wondered

jojojo · 24th July 2008, 12:11

I think there's more to it than just the position we play him in, there's also the question of the way he plays the position.

SAF:
“Wayne worked too hard on Wednesday. That cost him the opportunity to get goals. We said to him that he didn’t need to expend so much energy dropping back into midfield. All Wayne has to do is make sure he looks after his energy a bit more, that’s all. Don’t worry, he’ll be banging them in soon.”

It was said after we beat Portsmouth 2-0 in the League. Remember him saying that? I do, but probably only because it plays into my feelings about Roo and this whole workrate business. I know my fellow Caftards love that about him - but I think that's part of what's holding him back.

Why he couldn't follow SAF's advice I don't know - maybe the advice was different in the next team briefing - maybe he read a RedCafe thread about how great it is to see him track back

- maybe a better definition of his role is what he needs, but that definition is about more than just the name of the job.

Pogue Mahone · 24th July 2008, 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by jojojo

I think there's more to it than just the position we play him in, there's also the question of the way he plays the position.

SAF:
“Wayne worked too hard on Wednesday. That cost him the opportunity to get goals. We said to him that he didn’t need to expend so much energy dropping back into midfield. All Wayne has to do is make sure he looks after his energy a bit more, that’s all. Don’t worry, he’ll be banging them in soon.”

It was said after we beat Portsmouth 2-0 in the League. Remember him saying that? I do, but probably only because it plays into my feelings about Roo and this whole workrate business. I know my fellow Caftards love that about him - but I think that's part of what's holding him back.

Why he couldn't follow SAF's advice I don't know - maybe the advice was different in the next team briefing - maybe he read a RedCafe thread about how great it is to see him track back

- maybe a better definition of his role is what he needs, but that definition is about more than just the name of the job.

That's a good point. And Fergie made a similar point a few times last season.

rooney__10 · 24th July 2008, 12:15

TBH it doesn't matter if rooney is misused if man utd win. Obviously it would be good if we could see rooney play in his behind the striker role but we do have to haveto do a lot to cater for him. We need berba or saha fit firstly. If we had berba in the cl final and if we didn't want to misuse him then maybe he wouldn't have played(i.e451).

Pogue Mahone · 24th July 2008, 12:24

Couldn't find the exact article about formations I was talking about but here is something fairly similar...

Quote:

Roaming Roma find follower in Sir Alex Ferguson
Gabriele Marcotti
“Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.” – T. S. Eliot

When AS Roma take on Manchester United tomorrow, it will be the fifth time in less than a year that the teams have squared off. And while their encounters have made headlines for a variety of reasons, perhaps this one should be remembered as something of a passing of the torch.

Because the “strikerless formation” pioneered by Luciano Spalletti, the Roma manager, has been taken, tweaked, readjusted and raised to the highest level by Sir Alex Ferguson.

Manchester United in their present incarnation – with Carlos Tévez, Wayne Rooney, Cristiano Ronaldo and Ryan Giggs moving seamlessly across the line of attack, befuddling opponents by continually switching positions and leaving no points of reference – appear to have evolved directly out of Spalletti’s “4-6-0” experiment three seasons ago. Although there are differences, their movement and use of space is based on the same principles.

Steve McClaren, the former England head coach, talked about it on TheGame Podcast a few weeks back and it is worth remembering his words. “Roma introduced this system and it’s very difficult to play against,” he said. “I watched them against Real Madrid and it was total football – everybody defends, everybody attacks. United have been developing it and, I believe, they can improve on it.”

By now, you are probably familiar with how the system works. There is no centre forward. Francesco Totti is nominally the farthest player up the pitch, but he has licence to roam and, in fact, often doubles back to hit passes out to the wings. This leaves the opposition central defenders with a dilemma. If they track Totti, an injury doubt for tomorrow’s match, they leave a gap that a runner from the midfield can exploit; if they stay where they are, Roma have a man advantage in midfield and “in the hole”.

Roma’s front four is completed by two pacy wingers, such as Rodrigo Taddei and Mancini, both of whom can play on either flank and enjoy cutting inside, and Simone Perrotta, whose late runs into the penalty area, Frank Lampard-style, turn him into an adjunct striker. Throw in two attacking full backs and a deeplying, playmaker such as David Pizarro (a role interpreted by Paul Scholes in the United version) and Spalletti’s attacking machinery is complete.

As McClaren points out, it works because most teams defend deep, denying space behind the defenders. But, given that space is finite, if you deny it behind the back four, you have to concede it in front. And if your opponents have a quartet of talented and creative attacking players in that area, you are in for a bumpy ride.

Of course, the system is not fool-proof. It works with Tévez, Giggs, Ronaldo and Rooney, but it probably would not work with Nicolas Anelka, Didier Drogba, Lampard and Joe Cole. Not because the Chelsea quartet are any worse, but because they have different characteristics.

Spalletti’s genius lay in realising the qualities of the players at his disposal, developing a system that exploited them and having the courage to introduce it. That said, as with many great inventions, necessity played a big part in its birth. It was prompted when an injury crisis among his strikers left Totti as the only able-bodied front man. Rather than forcing him to play up front on his own, thereby negating some of his most obvious skills, Spalletti conjured up the “strikerless system”.

It has allowed Roma to thrive in fairly remarkable circumstances. The club’s finances are a mess after the excesses of the past (when they thought nothing of spending £25 million on a 31-year-old Gabriel Batistuta), which meant that Spalletti has had to operate on a shoestring budget, selling players off to finance acquisitions (the most recent being Christian Chivu, the Romanian, who was sold to Inter Milan for £9 million).

Yet under Spalletti, Roma finished second in Serie A last season, while winning the Italian Cup and reaching the quarter-finals of the Champions League. This year, they are again among Europe’s elite eight, while sitting second in Serie A behind Inter.

Whether other clubs will choose to emulate Spalletti’s model and build on it in the way United have, remains to be seen. For now, expect to see two teams mirroring each other tomorrow evening, at least as far as tactics are concerned. In terms of personnel, it is a different story. United are far stronger, which will probably only serve as a reminder that systems are only as good as the players who make them work.

And another piece by the same journo...

Quote:

4-4-2 exits through the evolving door

Gabriele Marcotti

As footballing creeds go, it is entrenched. It is what most play when they first engage in organised football. It is the first option in most video-games. And there is even a football magazine by that name. But the 4-4-2 formation is in serious danger of going the way of telephone booths, VCRs and shops that repair electric kettles. Obsolescence beckons.

Of the eight quarter-finalists in the Champions League, two employ a 4-4-2 formation: Schalke 04 and Arsenal. I am being generous in the case of the North London team: it is the formation that they would have used all season if Robin van Persie had been fit. In fact, with Van Persie out they have often used Emmanuel Adebayor on his own up front.

Arsène Wenger, the Arsenal manager, once told me that it was the most “rational” scheme because “it is the most efficient way of covering the greatest percentage of the pitch”. Most of his counterparts evidently do not see it that way. At Barcelona, Frank Rijkaard uses three up front. Chelsea and Liverpool employ a lone striker with two wide men. Zico, the Fenerbahçe coach, uses a variation of the one-striker system, with the support men being more central. AS Roma and Manchester United (even when Carlos Tévez and Wayne Rooney play together down the middle) effectively have no fixed front men, relying on constant movement to attack from different areas of the pitch.

However you want to define the varying systems, one thing is clear: the old footballing bread-and-butter of two fully-fledged strikers (usually one big and strong, the other quick and agile) down the middle is getting more difficult to find at the highest level.

Obviously, there is no “right” formation in football. It all depends on the players at your disposal, their characteristics and how well they execute and understand the manager’s system. And so it would appear to make sense that part of the reason we no longer see many teams attacking with two strikers is that forwards have changed.

Exhibit A seems to be the gradual disappearance of the traditional target man: tall, strong, good in the air and a fixture in the opposition’s penalty area. The “gold standard” today are players such as Didier Drogba, Ruud van Nistelrooy, David Trezeguet and Luca Toni. All of them are 30 or older. With a few exceptions, such as Mario Gomez, of VfB Stuttgart, who is 22, there are no heirs apparent.

True, there are still tall, strong strikers, but they are more in the mould of Adebayor or Fernando Torres, players who are also mobile and quick. Because they provide pace and power, they are comfortable playing up front on their own, unlike the players cited above, most of whom (with the exception of Drogba and perhaps Van Nistelrooy) are more productive with a teammate nearby.

The genetic development of players is probably what has done most to eradicate the two-striker scheme. As players become bigger and quicker, they fill more of the pitch. Teams defend higher up and as a result the space in which to play shrinks. A side-effect is that it is easier for midfield players to get into the penalty area as pace and stamina improve.

It is not a coincidence that players such as Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard and Cristiano Ronaldo are so prolific; they have the physical tools to get into the area far more than their counterparts a generation ago.

And so, if your midfield players can effectively double as strikers when you have possession, many managers reckon that there is no point playing two up front. Better to have an extra man in the middle of the park, where games are won and lost. This is especially true when it comes to strikers who are one-dimensional and do not offer much in terms of workrate, movement or creativity (which is, largely, the case of the frontmen cited above). Best to hand a slot to an attacking midfield player instead.

All of this heralds a new frontier and, taken to its logical conclusion, it raises the question of why have strikers at all. Why not, rather than three banks of players, employ only two: defence and midfield? Carlos Alberto Parreira, the former Brazil coach, foreshadowed this in a memorable speech some years ago. You could argue that United and Roma are leading the way in that direction. Two strikers are (nearly) dead as a concept. Some are turning their back on even the lone striker. Football continues to evolve. Until the next big idea surfaces.

BaldwinLegend · 24th July 2008, 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

I actually think it's been a good few years since we last played a conventional 442. Be interesting to see if we go a bit more "old skool" now that Carlos is gone.

Couldn't be arsed with this thread till now so apologies if this has been mentioned already. Didn't SAF have a chuckle at the journalists last year who accredited United's success to a return to 442 by saying that he, Ferguson, hasn't used 442 for donkey's years?

Pogue Mahone · 24th July 2008, 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaldwinLegend

Couldn't be arsed with this thread till now so apologies if this has been mentioned already. Didn't SAF have a chuckle at the journalists last year who accredited United's success to a return to 442 by saying that he, Ferguson, hasn't used 442 for donkey's years?

Yup. I'm fairly sure I remember him saying that too.

In fact, Steve McLaren was interviewed about formation/tactics under Fergie on the Times podcast (something which is alluded to in Marcotti's article) and confirmed that this was the case, going right back to when he was Fergie's number 2.

nickm · 24th July 2008, 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by GusHiddink

you cant be saying the team is benefiting overall when he's not being used properly imo.

We won the Double. I think the team is doing fine.

Brad · 24th July 2008, 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Couldn't find the exact article about formations I was talking about but here is something fairly similar...

And another piece by the same journo...

I prefer the term 'bullshit generator' to journalist personally

Incidently, anyone who has a copy of last months 442 magazine, turn to page 64, where Marcotti gives his ideal England first XI. Not only does he have Joe Hart in goal, and Leighton Baines at left back, he has Rooney playing in CENTRAL MIDFIELD, and Dean Ashton leading the line of his own

Suffice to say its absolute bollocks to claim Roma have played with a 4-6-0 formation, let alone us. The only teams that arguably do that are the ones who come to OT and play for a point, with everyone behind the ball

Pogue Mahone · 24th July 2008, 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

I prefer the term 'bullshit generator' to journalist personally

Incidently, anyone who has a copy of last months 442 magazine, turn to page 64, where Marcotti gives his ideal England first XI. Not only does he have Joe Hart in goal, and Leighton Baines at left back, he has Rooney playing in CENTRAL MIDFIELD, and Dean Ashton leading the line of his own

Suffice to say its absolute bollocks to claim Roma have played with a 4-6-0 formation, let alone us. The only teams that arguably do that are the ones who come to OT and play for a point, with everyone behind the ball

I don't take every journalist's opinions at face value but Marcotti is more astute than most.

He talks a lot more sense about formation/tactics than 99.99% of the people who post on here, that's for sure.

Brad · 24th July 2008, 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

I don't take every journalist's opinions at face value but Marcotti is more astute than most.

He talks a lot more sense about formation/tactics than 99.99% of the people who post on here, that's for sure.

Did you actually read my last post? If someone came up with that line up and formation on here, we'd laugh them out of the place

And whats astute about claiming a team is playing 4-6-0 when they quite blatantly are not?

24th July 2008, 10:09	#41 (permalink)
Name Changed weso26 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Dublin Posts: 4,432	It was quite obvious all along that Rooney was being misused. It was a disgrace to see how he was used sometimes. He is probably the most naturally gifted footballer at United and the team should be built around him, not him filling in different gaps now and again. Maybe now we will get to see the best of Wayne.

24th July 2008, 10:42	#44 (permalink)
FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London Posts: 9,450	Don't know what the fuss is, he said Rooney has been misused to the disdvantage of Wayne Rooney but not that Rooney has been misused for the team. Ferguson's prime concern is Manchester United and how it will benefit them not Wayne Rooney and how it will benefit the player.

24th July 2008, 11:36	#50 (permalink)
MadDogg Reserve Team Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: “Manchester United never lose, they just run out of time” Posts: 3,135	Basically, his best postion is behind the main striker in any formation. Also, I have no problem with Rooney playing on the 'wings' in a proper 4231. In fact, I'd play him in that left wing position in my strongest team. It's certainly not a normal wing spot where he has to constantly hug the touchline and just bring in crosses. In fact, he played there in what was one of our greatest ever performances in the 7-1 demolition of Roma. But obviously we do not want him wide in a 442 or 451 formation. That is where he is seriously mis-used.

24th July 2008, 12:11	#54 (permalink)
jojojo Reserve Team Player Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: It was a life before - it'll be a life after Posts: 1,472	I think there's more to it than just the position we play him in, there's also the question of the way he plays the position. SAF: “Wayne worked too hard on Wednesday. That cost him the opportunity to get goals. We said to him that he didn’t need to expend so much energy dropping back into midfield. All Wayne has to do is make sure he looks after his energy a bit more, that’s all. Don’t worry, he’ll be banging them in soon.” It was said after we beat Portsmouth 2-0 in the League. Remember him saying that? I do, but probably only because it plays into my feelings about Roo and this whole workrate business. I know my fellow Caftards love that about him - but I think that's part of what's holding him back. Why he couldn't follow SAF's advice I don't know - maybe the advice was different in the next team briefing - maybe he read a RedCafe thread about how great it is to see him track back - maybe a better definition of his role is what he needs, but that definition is about more than just the name of the job.

24th July 2008, 12:15	#56 (permalink)
rooney__10 Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,272	TBH it doesn't matter if rooney is misused if man utd win. Obviously it would be good if we could see rooney play in his behind the striker role but we do have to haveto do a lot to cater for him. We need berba or saha fit firstly. If we had berba in the cl final and if we didn't want to misuse him then maybe he wouldn't have played(i.e451).