So, Tom Cleverley then

RDCR07

Yeah if you ask me, they should have gone right after the WC. Now they are in the team just because of their reputation and Capello being a pussy for not taking them out.

giggs-beckham

Wilshire and Cleverly are a different type of player to what England are used to producing. They along with wellbeck and the other young players could herald an exciting new era for England. They need a manager with the courage to usher in that new era of playing style and self belief. Cappello isn't that manager.

RDCR07

Carl

Swap Huddlestone for Cleverley and play which ever right winger is in form at the time as they're all as good/shit as each other depending.

EDIT: Woah, fuck. Just noticed Darren Bent. Get Welbeck in instead.

Makki

-----------Rooney-----------

Young---Wilshere---Walcott

----Cleverley--Parker------

Cole---Jones--Rio--Smalling

------------Hart--------------

For big games.

_________________________________


----------Welbeck-----------

Young----Rooney---Walcott

----Cleverley--Wilshere----

Cole---Jones--Rio--Smalling

------------Hart--------------

Against cannon fodder.

RDCR07

Why would you want Parker ahead of Barry, Carrick and Huddlestone?

tintedsepia

I think Capello's just going to have to see the light.

I wasn't overly impressed with Parker or Barry last night. Having seen United this season the midfield just seemed ponderous.

Perfectly adequate over Bulgaria - yes. But against better teams....

I thought that at 3-0, rather than bringing Lampard on - he should have brought on Cleverley to get a taste of the action at this stage - rather than blooding him when we have a few injuries.

I happen to think the potential for our midfield looks good going forward (England's midfield that is - sorry!)

Cleverley
Wilshere
Ross Barkley? we'll see
Josh McEachran? we'll see

Meanwhile I haven't forgotten Carrick. If SAF can get him to increase the timing of his passing again like it was when he came here I think we'll be better of for it. Unfortunately Carrick's passing got slower which didn't help us.

Carl

Loving the United bias here Makki.

Makki

Like someone said, United's been the most successful English side in the last 20 years, why not use more of those players that actually know each other and can interchange well on national level? Spain uses that method to great effect (admittedly due to the big two being the only ones with really good players) whereby the national team plays like a unit rather than a set of individuals.

Makki

Barry's shit, Carrick's been pretty poor for the last seasons and doesn't hold a spot at United and Huddlestone is far too immobile to play the midfield harrier role against better sides.

I'd have Hargreaves over any of them if he was fit, mind you.

Carl

Yes but that's because the best Spanish players happen to play for Barcelona or Real Madrid.

There are better english right backs than Smalling and there are better English centre backs than Jones.

Makki

Obviously, but the point is that they know each other well from their club sides anyway which makes them function better as a national team. If we're looking a year ahead (or maybe even three years ahead to the World Cup) I'd say that England should play a team that has the potential of going far in those tournaments, not have a team of old players that barely reach the tournament and then have half the team subbed for the world cup, or even playing with those, too old, players in the tournament itself.

Widnes

I'm not sure there is, The right back spot has been dire for England since Gary Neville got injured in 2007. Glen Johnson has been first choice right back for England and he is fairly shit so I would probably say Richards is the next best option but I have never been that impressed by him so I would say to keep Smalling there for now.

apotheosis

Bit harsh, i thought they did ok yesterday, not brilliant but they go the job done.

Surely you did not expect him to play an untried youngster on his debut away from home in a qualifier?

Capello has done many things wrong during his tenure, but he is at last showing that he is prepared to give the youngsters a go. for the first time in at least a decade the usual suspects are no longer guaranteed a place, at least give him credit for that. He is showing more bottle than previous managers in that regard at least.

apotheosis

No they are in there because they can help the youngsters learn from their mistakes.

Or would you prefer Capello to do a Wenger and place all his faith in untested youth?

Fergie knows the value of integrating youngsters alongside more experienced players, and Capello should not be criticised imo for attempting to do the same.

Makki

And that sums up what's wrong with the English national team. It's full of players that can 'do a job', and the problem is that these players are selected ahead of young players who could use the experience to be able to do more than 'a job' in the future, while still winning these games.

RDCR07

I was not saying the whole team should be replaced. I was only calling for three players.

Makki

However, the whole point is to have the youngsters learn from players who know how it feels to be involved in a title race, who know how to turn a game around and who can pass their winning mentality onto the younger players. That's possible for Fergie because his sides have been successful for the past 20 years and his older players know what it feels like to win, as did Pires, Vieira, Henry et al before they were sold by Wenger.

Now, look at Heskey and tell me which kind of experience, apart from making a career out of being a big lump up front and have people fooled into thinking that you make Rooney play better (Andy Carroll, take notice), he can pass onto the youngsters in the team? Or Barry for that matter?

It's not all about how many games you've played in your career, it's much more than that.

Hal9000

On last seasons form Richards was probably the best England right back, and it was criminal that Johnson and others were picked over him. Iv'e not seen him much this season, so I'm not sure how he is.

apotheosis

Unfortunately though at International level, we do not have a title race, but what we do have is players who know how to play for a result away from home and what it takes to qualify for tournaments.

That at present is all the younger players need to learn.

Let me counter that point by highlighting the inaccuracy of your last initial claim. Heskey may have been fortunate to have the England career he has had, granted, but he still has the capacity to teach youngsters how to cope with the media spotlight and persistent criticism.

Lampard has title winning experience, but let me ask you what effect has his title wins had on his England career? You don't have to have won things to give youngsters the benefit of your experience.

I am not picking on Lampard, i was simply highlighting that being a title winner does not mean anything in an England shirt. It's a completely different type of pressure and only playing for England, or speaking to those with such experience, can truly prepare youngsters for all that comes with it.

You are right on one thing though, it is not about how many games you have played, it is what you have learned while playing them. Experience is vital for gaining a better understanding of all aspects of the game.

All experienced England players no matter the level of their performance, individual talent or success at their clubs, still have learned something of value that could benefit the youngsters.

Makki

I can't see him holding down a starting place in the England team until he becomes more intelligent on the pitch. His only asset is his physique, but that isn't enough at the top level.

apotheosis

Fair enough my apologies, but why parker out? He did not even go to the WC! After watching that last year we certainly could have done with his type of contribution. He does a job nobody else does or wants to do, he gets stuck in, harasses and pressurises opponents with his determination and energy, and he wins the ball.

Barry, Carrick or huddlestone do none of those things anywhere near as well. For a start, none have any pace or mobility and offer nowhere near as much energy. They are all unquestionably technically better than Parker, but that changes nothing. If you are all silk and no steel then you are lacking something vital from your team.

Energy as well as technique is required in modern day football and if we do not have experienced players with both, then we will have to have make do for now, with one providing energy and one technique.

apotheosis

Agreed, he lacks discipline too, which is why despite City's good start, he has recently been replaced by the less athletic, but much more dependable Zabaleta.

Smalling is owning the RB spot from now on in my view, he is only going to get better and seems to have the right attitude, despite being much less experienced than the rivals for that spot.

Makki

Returning to the topic: People were talking about whether Cleverley can be world class or not and people said he couldn't because he wasn't talented enough (or something along those lines), but I really think he could be a really, really good midfielder because his footballing intelligence is tremendous for such a young player. A player may not be the most talented, but if he's intelligent on and off the ball then he can become as good as any player in the world.

I suggest that people look at Thomas Müller. No extraordinary measurable qualities*, but his amazing intelligence sees him score a lot in big competitions and be very highly regarded in the footballing world.

For that reason I can see Cleverley becoming a great midfielder because he has that sense of passing and directly moving into space for the next pass, and if you can use your intelligence to always be a step ahead of the opposition then you don't need to be quicker or stronger than the rest in order to be better than them.

* By measurable qualities I mean abilities such as pace, shooting, passing etc that are numerically measured in numbers in the FIFA games.

#07

I think a better example to use would be Frank Lampard and Joe Cole. The people at West Ham who worked with both players clearly thought that Joe Cole was the more naturally gifted player and they were probably correct. However, whilst in 2005 Lampard came second behind Ronaldinho in the Ballon d'Or voting Cole's career has never really taken off in the same way. Talent alone is not enough to take players to the top.

What you see when you compare the careers of Lampard and Cole at both West Ham and Chelsea is that willingness to listen, learn and apply yourself are just as important as natural ability. To think Cleverley cannot become one of the best players in his position when he has both the attitude and the God given talent to do so would be, I agree with you, a premature judgement to pass.

You don't play one and two touch football the way that Cleverley does if you're not gifted and you don't go onto play for United after not being offered a pro contract by the club at 16 unless you can apply yourself and understand where you need to grow. Cleverley can go as far as he wants to I'm convinced of that.

apotheosis

Completely agree, but i fail to see why you earlier seemed to imply that others starting ahead of him yesterday, somehow negates the possibilities of him proving his worth in the near future.

Capello clearly expected a tougher game against a Bulgarian team playing at home. He stated before the game their speed on the counter was a concern, which explains why he opted for 2 experienced, disciplined players to snuff out that threat. He was already playing a new system, with 2 players making their full debuts in the back 4. He dropped Lampard, and employed a fluid front 3, i really don't understand what more he could have been expected to do.

Cleverley will undoubtedly get his chance, maybe even against Wales. This would be a much wiser opportunity to give him a game as they will be playing at Wembley.

i agree with your assessment of Cleverley's potential and the attributes he offers, but i am a little puzzled by your seeming annoyance that Capello didn't chance his arm even further.

Skywarden

Not only is he offensively sound, but the recent quotes regarding his influences suggests that he's learning how to defend like them too.

Tremendous talent.

Makki

So, going by your example, Cleverley should've been put in the team first when he had decent protection in other parts of the team. Look at him for United, he's been performing very well in midfield with Jones, Evans and Smalling behind him, rather than Ferdinand/Vidic.

I'm not saying that him not playing Cleverley negates the possibility of him proving his worth, it just delays it, and at the moment when the players who are ahead of him are doing no more than 'doing a job' I don't see why the younger players shouldn't be given a chance when they've shown good performances for their clubs.

He should've had him on the bench and brought him on at half time.

apotheosis

Tbf to Cole his talent had took him to Chelsea, the difference was Mourinho tried to change him as a player and it did not suit him. He was unfortunate that really he was a flair player and not much else, at a time when flair was being replaced in favour of tactical discipline.

I agree with your overall example, but have to point out that as i alluded to earlier, i believe he was in some ways a victim of circumstance. Lamps flourished because he was a more versatile and adaptable player under a manager that appreciated those qualities.

Coles problem for me was that he stayed at chelsea too long and lost both his instinctive pattern of play and his confidence. If we look at Robben a similar scenario to Cole's developed also under mourinho. Robben however refuse to change and left chelsea. Cole tried to adapt, failed, lost his confidence and his career has passed him by somewhat.

I have long championed Cleverley, even before he went to Wigan i felt he had something about him. I have absolutely no doubts that it is his attitude which makes the difference, he always wants to learn, believes in himself and has the arrogance required to want to make a telling contribution.

I honestly believe although it is early days, this pairing has completely revitalised our whole team at a time when after Scholes retired, many felt we were going backwards not signing a player like Sneijder.

I for one am ecstatic that TC is finally getting his chance and even more so that he and Ando are bringing the best out of each other. The standard of their performances are giving the team a whole new dimension and the team and squad in general is benefiting from it.

#07

No argument from me.

apotheosis

Not at all, he was played how he should have been played, in games of little importance under less pressure and certainly less scrutiny. It was the standard of his performances alongside Anderson and their subsequent effect on the team, which almost demanded Fergie had to play the pair in the more competitive games.

In hindsight possibly, but without the benefit of hindsight Capello did the right thing, he protected a defence containing 2 debutants, and gave a solid platform which allowed the forwards freedom to interchange as they saw fit.

I understand your point but seriously put yourself in Capello's shoes, apart from not putting Cleverley on, he got everything else just about right. There were definitely more positives than negatives to take away from that performance and most importantly it gives the team great confidence and gets the media off their backs.

However, what i will concede to you, is that if TC does not play a part against Wales, i will gladly join you in critcising Capello for not giving him a chance. Capello has the perfect opportunity to play TC now at home, let's now see what he does, before we give him too much grief.

#07

Cleverley delighted with form | Manchester United News, Fixtures, Results, Transfers | Sky Sports

unitedbhoy

One of the most pleasing things about him is that he seems to have his head firmly screwed on.

Bill.s.preston

I wouldn't get too carried away. In my opinion we weren't great against West Brom and both Arsenal and Spurs were depleted in midfield. Don't get me wrong, I have been impressed with Anderson and Cleverley and the dynamic passing and movement from the whole team. I will not start singing from the rooftops until they've come through a few sterner tests though.

Wan

Like Barca and City?

Baby Faced Assassin

City was surely a sterner test?

Bill.s.preston

Not necessarily. Just a few decent full strength and experienced midfields. If you're trying to make a point about the two recent friendlies, there is a difference between pre season friendlies and a full-on competetive match. In addition to that, I believe Carrick started the City game and I didn't see the Barca game, but I'm sure I read they fielded a weakened team.

Ubik

Carrick started the City game, but Cleverley was the one that impressed when he came on for the second half, during which we scored 3 goals from 2-0 down.

Barca I think rested Messi and Xavi, but Iniesta, Busquets and the highly rated Thiago still played. He's had a very impressive start to his United career, it's undeniable. True that we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves though, long season ahead.

Bill.s.preston

That's a good point, however I wonder if Fergie decided he had nothing to lose by bringing him on as we were 2-0 down and it is a glorified friendly.

I'm not trying to knock Cleverley at all, I'm just trying not to get carried away by the hype, it's early days yet.

#07

No doubt Cleverley got his chance because we were 2-0 down but Sir Alex's words suggest he wasn't omitted from the startign XI because there were fears about his ability but about his physique. This has been a recurring thing in Cleverley's United career from the time he got turned down for a full time contract at 16 cos the coaches at the club thought he was too small. Cleverley isn't because the Boss thinks we're playing weak teams. Cleverley's playing because the Boss thinks he's worth playing and I've no doubt he'll keep his place unless he does something to make Sir Alex think of dropping him.