United Legends Grand Final - Team DanNistelrooy vs Team Polaroid

Originally Posted by DanNistelrooy

Alex Stepney - Our longest serving goalkeeper ever with 433 caps and the 1968 European Cup to his name.

Arthur Albiston - 15 years and almost 400 caps for United. Helped United to prmotion and a few FA cups.

Gary Pallister - One of the best centre backs Fergie has had in his time at United. Quick, strong and can also play a bit.

Jaap Stam - Man mountain of a centre half and a key player in our most successful season ever.

Roger Byrne - Captain of the famous Busy Babes. 280 caps for United.

George Best - One of, if not the best player United have had. Magician

Paul Ince - Box to box midfielder who could do everything. Alongside Keane I would expect my midfield to win most battles

Roy Keane - Not much needed to be said about Keano. The most influential central midfielder during the club's most successful era. Not a lot that Keane couldn't do very well

Steve Coppell - One of the best right wingers United have had. 322 caps for United, helping United to an FA Cup and 2nd division title.

Mark Hughes - Over 450 caps and 160 goals for United. One of the key men to propel United back to Domestic dominance at the start of the Premiership era.

Denis Law - United's 2nd top scorer of all time, the King.

Subs:
David Gaskell - became the youngest player to ever play for United when he played in the 1956 Charity Shield at 16 years of age!

John O'shea - Mr Reliable/Versatile. Provider of some magic moments in his time at United in which he accumulated almost 400 appearances for United. Perfect man to be on the bench as he covers almost every position

Kevin Moran - Over 200 caps for United, 70 for Ireland and was also capable of chipping in at the other end. With 21 goals for United

Ray Wilkins - staying on his feet in midfield is Ray Wilkins. 160 caps for United and will be used off the bench to keep things ticking if we are ahead

Jesper Olsen - Providing the width on the left hand side is Jesper Olsen, with over 150 caps for United and 40 for his country.

Andrei Kanchelskis - Width on the right hand side comes from the pacey Kanchelskis. Superb player for United during the start of the Premiership and scorer of a famous hat-trick against City. His pace off the bench could be key.

Frank Stapleton - 60 goals for United in 260 caps, will be called upon if we need a goal.

Originally Posted by Polaroid

Line-up now

Subs:
Norman Whiteside
Dennis Viollet
David Herd
Stan Pearson
Eddie Colman
Allenby Chilton
Harry Gregg

Previous line-up

Subs:
Ole Gunnar Solskjaer
Dennis Viollet
David Herd
Stan Pearson
Eddie Colman
Allenby Chilton
Harry Gregg

GK: Peter Schmeichel
Appearances: 398
Goals: 1
A man-mountain with amazing cat-like reflexes, a screaming thundering bully, one of the greatest goalkeepers of all time, Peter Schmeichel was all these and more. His imposing frame and intimidating style of play made him a most formidable barrier, physically and psychologically, the one goalkeeper you would actually favour against strikers in one-on-one situations. He was instrumental in United's ascendancy to dominance in the 90s, culminating in that glorious treble of 99, lifting the Champions League trophy in Barcelona as captain.



RB: Johnny Carey
Appearances: 344
Goals: 17
Reliable, professional and committed - three words to sum up Carey throughout his 19-year stint at Old Trafford. Ever-enthusiastic, and smart with the ball (on either foot), Johnny Carey was key in United’s stirring comeback in the 1948 FA Cup final, and was voted Footballer of the Year in 1949. The league winner’s medal that came his way in 1952, the year before he departed, was a fitting swan song. Sir Matt Busby's first captain, he skippered the team from 1946 till his retirement in 1953. He also captained a European XI against Great Britain in 1947.

Source: United greats: Johnny Carey - Official Manchester United Website

LB: Patrice Evra
Appearances: 276
Goals: 3
Widely regarded as one of the best fullbacks in the game, Evra has played an important part in the club's success over the past 5 years, with his driving runs a salient feature of United's attacking play. A determined tackler with pace to burn, he is deceptively strong and good in the air for one of his height. He has been named in the PFA Team of the Year 3 times, the FIFPro World XI and the UEFA Team of the Year in 2009.

CB: Martin Buchan
Appearances: 456
Goals: 4
For a decade Martin Buchan was United’s arguably most influential player. A cultured centre-half on and off the pitch, he was captain for six years during the 1970s, leading the Reds to the Second Division title in 1974/75 and the FA Cup in 1977. In Buchan’s 11 years at Old Trafford he demonstrated excellent positional awareness which, coupled with his pace, made him one of the coolest and classiest defenders of his era.

Source: Martin Buchan - Official Manchester United Website

CB: Paul McGrath
Apearances: 199
Goals: 16
A defender of impeccable pedigree, McGrath’s prescient anticipation, flawless positioning, powerful athleticism and immaculate technique made him one of the best defenders ever to grace the domestic game. After 7 seasons with United where he only had the FA Cup as his solitary trophy success, he went on to Aston Villa and won two League Cups, winning PFA Footballer of the Year in 1993 at the age of 34, all the while playing with dodgy knees. One wonders what might have been if not for his alcoholism exacerbating his injury problems and fuelling his departure from Old Trafford.



CM: Paul Scholes
Appearances: 682
Goals:151
You must have a rare and special football talent to impress the great Sir Bobby Charlton. The United legend summed up Paul Scholes perfectly: "He’s always so in control and pinpoint accurate with his passing – a beautiful player to watch." He was a cornerstone of 1999’s Treble-winners, although suspension ruled him out of the UEFA Champions League final, and in United’s Premier League success in 2003, his 20-goal haul was vital. Neat and compact, a misplaced Scholes pass was one of the rarest sights in football.

Source: Paul Scholes - Official Manchester United Website



CM: Duncan Edwards
Appearances: 177
Goals: 21
Matt Busby described Duncan Edwards as the most 'complete footballer in Britain - possibly the world'. Armed with boundless stamina, an all-encompassing range of passing and a truly ferocious shot, Edwards was a player who could control any game he played in. A hulking physical presence for one so young earned Edwards the nickname of ‘manboy’, and he made his Football League debut aged just 16 years and 185 days old on 4 April 1953, against Cardiff City. By 21 he had won three Youth Cup winners’ medals, two league championships and appeared in an FA Cup final. When he made his international debut he became the youngest player to be capped for England in the 20th century at the age of 18 years and 183 days.

Source: Duncan Edwards - Official Manchester United Website



CM: Norman Whiteside
Appearances: 274
Goals: 67
One of the most gifted footballers to come through the United youth system, Whiteside had everything bar the extra yard of pace that would have made him the unplayable world-beater. He had remarkable technique and incredible sleight of foot for someone of his size (6 foot 2), his skill and eye for goals often produced delightful pieces of magic such as that wondrous stunner that curled past Neville Southall and into United folklore as the goal that won United the 1985 FA cup. His strong physique and combative style of play stood him in good stead amongst the rough and tumble of midfield, where his class on the ball can make the difference in quality to help United gain control of games. He relished battles, especially the big ones, and this appetite for the big games repeatedly paid off in match-winning displays against Liverpool and Everton, the dominant teams in the 80s, earning him cult hero status among the United faithful.



RM: David Beckham
Appearances: 394
Goals: 85
Arguably world football’s biggest name, David Beckham is a global phenomenon but a part of him will be forever Red. A decade spent marauding up United’s right wing contributed to the most successful period in the club’s history, and his 57-yard strike against Wimbledon has become one of the most replayed goals of all time. Mocked by the press and vilified by fans across the country after France 98, he was welcomed back into the arms of the United family and went on to enjoy a campaign that would have been beyond his - or any other Red’s - wildest dreams... the Treble.

David Beckham - Official Manchester United Website



LM: Ryan Giggs
Appearances: 898
Goals: 162
Ryan Giggs has made more appearances and won more honours than any other United player in the club's illustrious history. Giggs' first senior trophy arrived in November 1991 as United beat Red Star Belgrade in the European Super Cup final. The following season, 1992/93, saw Giggs and United win the inaugural Premier League title. Ryan was an integral part of two Double-winning sides, in 1993/94 and 1995/96, before going one better in 1998/99 by adding the European Cup to the FA Cup and Premier League trophy. His contributions to the Treble-winning campaign included a superb solo goal to win the FA Cup semi-final replay against Arsenal at Villa Park, commonly regarded as one of United's greatest goals of all time.

Source: Ryan Giggs - Official Manchester United Website



CF: Tommy Taylor
Appearances: 191
Goals: 131
Tommy Taylor is regarded by those who saw him play as the greatest centre-forward ever to represent Manchester United and England. He was the finest header of a ball in his era, his control and first-time passing immaculate, his scoring rate for club and country extraordinary. In fact, he was so good that the great Alfredo Di Stefano of Real Madrid dubbed him 'Magnifico'. In 189 appearances for United he scored 131 goals, giving him a goal ratio - of two every three games - that remains unsurpassed. He won championship medals in 1956 (scoring 34 league goals) and 1957 and netted an impressive 16 goals in 19 internationals for England. Tragically, on 6 February 1958, along with seven of his team-mates, Tommy lost his life in the Munich air crash.

Source: Tommy Taylor - Official Manchester United Website

Sub: Harry Gregg
Appearances: 247
Goals: 0
A real tough nut, Gregg was as vocal, commanding and abrasive as Peter Schmeichel would become three decades later. His bold personality and powerful physique had persuaded Busby to fork out £23,000 – then a world record fee for a goalkeeper – just three months before the Munich air crash. After the disaster, Gregg was a part of the patchwork team built by Jimmy Murphy who reached the FA Cup final three months later. United were heroic in defeat, yet that losers’ medal would be the only decoration of Gregg’s time at Old Trafford. The Northern Ireland international was voted best goalkeeper at the 1958 World Cup and remained United’s first-choice custodian for four years until a shoulder injury threatened his career.

Source: Harry Gregg - Official Manchester United Website

Sub: Allenby Chilton
Appearances: 391
Goals: 3
A tough, no-nonsense defender whose career was disrupted by the war, Chilton nevertheless made 391 appearances for United and was an important member of Sir Matt's first great side. He was club captain from 1953 to 1955, helping to mentor and guide the emerging Busby Babes, especially Mark Jones who was to succeed him in the United side.

Sub: Eddie Colman
Appearances: 108
Goals: 2
Nicknamed 'Snakehips' for his trademark body swerve, Eddie Colman, a cheeky young half back from Salford, was one of Old Trafford's great crowd-pleasers. He was a member of United's Youth Cup-winning teams in '53, '54 and '55, captaining the side to the last success.
Colman’s half-back partnership with close pal Duncan Edwards really fired the imagination of the fans, Eddie a Jack-in-the-box of jinks and twisting trickery, Duncan a ferocious competitor who thundered across the turf. Colman was no shrinking violet, however. His ball-winning skills, mixed with astute passing, regularly left opponents flat-footed.
Colman had won two championship medals and appeared on the losing side in the 1957 FA Cup final by the time of the fateful trip home from Belgrade on 6 February 1958.

Source: Eddie Colman - Official Manchester United Website

Sub: David Herd
Appearances: 265
Goals: 145
Few United players have known how to find the net better than David Herd. Herd scored on his United debuts in the FA Cup, the League Cup and all three European competitions.
Herd scored twice in the 3-1 FA Cup final victory over Leicester City in 1963, before helping United finish second in the league the following season; his partnership with Denis Law yielding 50 goals. United were crowned champions a year later, and in the following season, 1965/66, Herd found the net 32 times.

Source: David Herd - Official Manchester United Website

Sub: Ole Gunnar Solskjaer
Appearances: 366
Goals: 126
Ole Gunnar Solskjaer reluctantly called time on his United playing career on 28 August 2007 – eleven years and three days after it began with a goalscoring debut.

On the field, the Norwegian became an embodiment of United’s never-say-die spirit in their most successful decade, often scoring late goals when points or trophies looked to have been lost. Ole's many career highlights include his four goals in 12 minutes as a substitute at Nottingham Forest, in United's record away win (8-1). But surely the most special memory of all would be the Champions League final in 1999 when he best exhibited his ability to seize the whisker of a chance. His injury-time toe-poke past Bayern Munich keeper Oliver Kahn completed United's Treble and cemented his place in Reds folklore.

Source: Ole Gunnar Solskjaer - Official Manchester United Website



Sub: Dennis Viollet
Appearances: 293
Goals: 179
Many great strikers have graced the Old Trafford stage, but none has matched Dennis Viollet’s 32 league goals in the 1959/60 season. Blessed with pace and positional sense, Viollet scored a remarkable 179 goals in 293 United appearances, making him the club’s joint-fourth highest goalscorer alongside George Best. As part of the Busby Babes, he formed a formidable partnership with the physical Tommy Taylor. The marriage of subtlety and strength reaped dividends as United won back-to-back championships in 1956 and 1957.

Source: Dennis Viollet - Official Manchester United Website

Sub: Stan Pearson
Appearances: 343
Goals:148
Though the war played havoc with his United career, Stan Pearson’s talents at inside-forward made him one of the brightest stars in the club's firmament when hostilities ceased. He was a key member of Busby’s first great United team that tasted first success the F.A. Cup in 1948 (Pearson scored a hat-trick in the semi-final against Derby County and one in the 4-2 final win over Blackpool) and won the League Championship in 1952. Apart from consistency Pearson possessed a deadly and accurate shot.

Source: Stan Pearson - Official Manchester United Website

Originally Posted by Polaroid

and lest people forget, I have Solskjaer (126 goals), Viollet (179 goals), Herd (145 goals) and Pearson (148 goals) on the bench

Originally Posted by antohan

They can't score from the bench though and you can't play with 12, what do you suggest?

You'll probably have to go 4-4-2 to have more firepower but will lose some central midfield strength in the process. Against Keane and Ince that may not be such a good idea.

Originally Posted by Polaroid

The poll question is: Who has the better United Legends team? Are my subs not part of the team?
As I have said, firepower-wise, I have Taylor-Scholes-Beckham-Whiteside-Giggs vs Law-Best-Hughes

Originally Posted by antohan

I don't think anyone is taking subs into account unless you bring them on. I may be wrong, but somehow I don't think so.

It's somewhat unfair to include Beckham and Whiteside on one hand and not Coppell on the other.

That leaves you 5-4 in terms of players who are in any way prolific, but that is not the whole story. Taylor is your main goalscoring threat and up there by himself he will struggle more than Law and Hughes. You would expect a target man to have someone playing along feeding off his scraps.

You probably do have more ways you could score.

Again, it would be interesting to see Violett alongside Taylor but you do have to sacrifice some midfield control in the process.

Originally Posted by Polaroid

Beckham and Whiteside were more prolific than Coppell, Whiteside was around 1 in 4, Beckham around 1 in 5 and Coppell around 1 in 6. I can add Coppell and my point still stands - firepower-wise I do not lose out.

Originally Posted by Polaroid

Updated formation graphic as apparently people go by what they see in the formation graphics rather than read what was said

Originally Posted by antohan

I don't think Beckham is to far out on Coppell. Whiteside is but having played as a striker, you have placed him in midfield.

I actually expected you to have Whiteside alongside Taylor and slightly more withdrawn (support striker type positioning) and Edwards alongside Scholes with the option of dropping back. That would look a lot more positive. As it stands now it looks like you are wasting those two a bit by pulling them back. I guess the rationale is you need to stregthen to battle it out with a formidable pair (Keane + Ince) but the result is you seem to have three players committed to deal with two and Taylor upfront looks bloody lonely.

Just telling you what I'm seeing and many clearly are seeing the same.

I agree. You were lucky there that Dan couldn't pick Charlton from the last round and you have an edge there but no one upfront to capitalise on it.

The way I see it you've got Giggs but he's got Best. You've got Beckham crossing for Taylor, which is the most obvious threat but I wouldn't put it past Pallister and Stam to deal with that. You've got Scoles playing Giggs through and arriving late (main advantage) and then you've got free kicks.

It's good but it is not Best and Coppell on either wing with Law and Hughes through the middle. Simple, straightforward and devastating.

I'm not entirely convinced that Keano and Ince will just let you have the ball. That is as big a pain in the arse as you could have.

Touched on this earlier. Taylor's record is staggering and one has to wonder what may have been, but I still think him having someone alongside him would give Dan's CB pair a lot more to think about. One option is bringing Violett on, another is more clearly committing Whiteside forward and in both cases bringing Edwards to a midfield two.

What doesn't quite fly with me is putting those deep in the middle to ensure possession against Keano and Ince and somewhat miraculously Whiteside being upfront being second striker. He could switch over the course of the game but not really do it at the same time.

Originally Posted by kps88

Might have something to do with your tactics and player profiles being a thesis!

Originally Posted by Polaroid

Updated formation graphic as apparently people go by what they see in the formation graphics rather than read what was said about Giggs and Whiteside supporting Taylor

Originally Posted by Polaroid

backfired spectacularly! this is more than just a game though, i hope it helps to let younger fans learn more about the golden legends of the past

Originally Posted by antohan

I have to say, I abstained in the earlier rounds as a lot of games I had little to go on for a good number of players. Had me doing a bit of research and stuff but it just didn't feel right.

In latter stages teams tend to have legends we are a lot more acquainted and familiar with, which really helps!

Originally Posted by Polaroid

In that case, you should know that Whiteside played in midfield regularly for us. He started as a striker but with the emergence of Hughes, he moved deeper into midfield.

Whiteside is a key piece in this game, his goal-scoring and ball-winning prowess is a double bonus.

Originally Posted by Cutch

Seeings as this is based on the overall footballing impact and contribution to United, it has got to be Polaroid. Look at that midfield, incredible. And a striker that won us a Champions League final.

Originally Posted by Snow

That striker didn't come on til about 90% of the votes had come in. So he didn't impact much. Would probably have been better off with that starting lineup.

Originally Posted by antohan

I actually expected you to have Whiteside alongside Taylor and slightly more withdrawn (support striker type positioning) and Edwards alongside Scholes with the option of dropping back. That would look a lot more positive. As it stands now it looks like you are wasting those two a bit by pulling them back. I guess the rationale is you need to stregthen to battle it out with a formidable pair (Keane + Ince) but the result is you seem to have three players committed to deal with two and Taylor upfront looks bloody lonely.

Originally Posted by antohan

I agree. You were lucky there that Dan couldn't pick Charlton from the last round and you have an edge there but no one upfront to capitalise on it.

Originally Posted by antohan

The way I see it you've got Giggs but he's got Best. You've got Beckham crossing for Taylor, which is the most obvious threat but I wouldn't put it past Pallister and Stam to deal with that.

Originally Posted by antohan

It's good but it is not Best and Coppell on either wing with Law and Hughes through the middle. Simple, straightforward and devastating.

Originally Posted by Jayvin

How did you come to this conclusion? Dan wouldn't have the ball all the time, so why would Scholes, Whiteside et al continue playing defensively? They wouldn't. In fact, Polaroid's team would undoubtedly have the majority of possession, allowing Scholes to bomb forward alongside Taylor, Whiteside and Giggs. Think of the Scholes-RvN combo circa 2004, except better.

Originally Posted by Sunny Jim

Seriously, Polaroid's team is much much better. Better midfield, solid defense, great keeper.

Originally Posted by Snow

I think these older players are glorified too much. You guys haven't seen them play. It's all based on stats and them being remembered kindly, especially those who died in Munich. It's impossible to compare and it's not fair to argue that they could do this and that as same as other people.

Ruud actually had a better goal record with than Tommy Taylor. I'd also argue that the game in 2005 is more difficult than it was in 1955. Every single player like him get unbelievable descriptions and the highest praises. I'm sure Stam or Pallister could beat him in the air. If a man is properly marked he stands little chance of scoring in the air if he isn't close to goal.

Originally Posted by antohan

Dan had United legends setting out to play this game the United way, you had United legends starting out in some sort of modern European style emphasising midfield possession which just didn't feel right.

Originally Posted by Snow

That striker didn't come on til about 90% of the votes had come in. So he didn't impact much. Would probably have been better off with that starting lineup.

Originally Posted by antohan

I got that point but, as mentioned earlier, you had him in midfield helping outnumber Dan yet expected us to also see him up there as a support striker. He can do either but not both symultaneously. If he is in midfield and joins an attack fine, but at that point he's got Ince onto him. He is not a second striker keeping Stam busy while Taylor battles with Pally.

Originally Posted by antohan

Indeed, with all three there you beat Keano and Ince on all those counts. With any two of yours possession becomes questionable. I never disputed you would get the lion's share of possession that way, you just had Taylor outnumbered upfront and if you really committed forward with continued pressure you are open to his counter which is a scary prospect.

For the most part, I didn't see the point of wasting Edwards in a back four protection role in the hole when Dan would be charging down the wing.

You sure do. You would probably be winning this starting with your second formation (with minor adjustments).

That is a fair point and I think I said as much earlier. You would control the game, you would set the tempo, the modern fan in me could see you slowly grinding down Dan... and the romantic in me could see classic United wingplay destroying you on a counter.

Originally Posted by antohan

Originally Posted by Snow

I think these older players are glorified too much. You guys haven't seen them play. It's all based on stats and them being remembered kindly, especially those who died in Munich. It's impossible to compare and it's not fair to argue that they could do this and that as same as other people.

Ruud actually had a better goal record with than Tommy Taylor. I'd also argue that the game in 2005 is more difficult than it was in 1955. Every single player like him get unbelievable descriptions and the highest praises. I'm sure Stam or Pallister could beat him in the air. If a man is properly marked he stands little chance of scoring in the air if he isn't close to goal.

Originally Posted by Wittmann45

But that is exactly how we succeeded in Europe under Busby, especially in away fixtures. 4-3-3, control the game, especially early in the match, take the crowd out of the game in the first half through midfield domination and wear down the opponent.

Not much different than how Fergie won his second CL either

Originally Posted by polaroid

The Busby Babes did not play 4-4-2, neither did we win the 68 European Cup final with 4-4-2. It is mistaken to think that United legends have always been playing 4-4-2. This is a fallacy which should be dispelled.