Wayne Rooney

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 26th March 2008, 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam#1

Rooney 65
Tevez 71
Saha 19

155

Spurs:
Berbatov 69
Keane 62
Bent 25

156

2 & 1/3rd strikers have 155 and 4 fit ones 156. Are you still failing to see the gap?

Feed Me · 26th March 2008, 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

You're not serioulsy trying to claim that Rooney is just an "effort" player, are you?

No, but it seems to me there is a danger of going down that route. I love the bloke. I just want to see him score regularly - he has it in his locker. Make no mistake - in front of goal, he is woefully out of form. If you asked hi, he'd probably say the same thing.

I feel I need to say this explicitly to avoid a good carpeting though: His all round play has been very good.

Feed Me · 26th March 2008, 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by CnutOfAllCnuts

What are you going to do about it?

You are so condescending sometimes.

Fine. Let us never ask for an improvement in a player.

Sam#1 · 26th March 2008, 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

2 & 1/3rd strikers have 155 and 4 fit ones 156. Are you still failing to see the gap?

So Berbatov, Keane and Bent now constitute 4 fit strikers ?

Wow!

Ace · 26th March 2008, 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Player A gets 100 chances and scores 20 of them.

Player B gets 200 chances and scores 40 of them.

Which player has a better chance conversion %?

HINT: This may be a trick question.

Statistically speaking they both have a 20% conversion rate.

Logically you want player B who scores twice as much as player A.

pillory · 26th March 2008, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Check my post with the number of shots on goal their forwards have had compared to ours. Then come back and tell me how Spurs create as much as we do.

Erm, why are we only looking at shots by attackers? Why not the whole team? What are we discussing?

Plechazunga · 26th March 2008, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace

Statistically speaking they both have a 20% conversion rate.

Logically you want player B who scores twice as much as player A.

Not necessarily. Player B might play for a brilliant team that creates loads of chances for him.

But yeah, a likely implication would be that player B gets in good positions more often, or creates more chances for himself, or both.

wolfshead · 26th March 2008, 15:29

I'd say wayne is getting back to form and when he is firing on all cylinders the goals will come
as fergie says strikers can get a goal glut and just cant stop scoring it'll happen for wayne-if he hits form now he'll singlehandedly drive the rest of the campaign

Pogue Mahone · 26th March 2008, 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

Not necessarily. Player B might play for a brilliant team that creates loads of chances for him.

But yeah, a likely implication would be that player B gets in good positions more often, or creates more chances for himself, or both.

Alternatively, in the Rubber-man/IK parallel universe, player B obviously plays for a better team. This means he get presented with better chances so his chance conversion rate over-estimates how good he really he is, making player A the better striker.

Only in the caf, eh?

Ace · 26th March 2008, 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

Not necessarily. Player B might play for a brilliant team that creates loads of chances for him.

But yeah, a likely implication would be that player B gets in good positions more often, or creates more chances for himself, or both.

I look at it this way. I'd rather have a player like Ronaldo (Player B) who takes so many shots, and is very prone to putting a few balls in the seats behind the goal, but has bagged 25 goals this season. In contrast to Benjani (Player A) at 13 goals (half of Ronaldo's for the sake of the argument), who may have a better scoring percentage but considerably fewer goals.

Paul Robinson had a 100% goal conversion rate last season if I'm not mistaken.

Pogue Mahone · 26th March 2008, 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace

I look at it this way. I'd rather have a player like Ronaldo (Player B) who takes so many shots, and is very prone to putting a few balls in the seats behind the goal, but has bagged 25 goals this season. In contrast to Benjani (Player A) at 13 goals (half of Ronaldo's for the sake of the argument), who may have a better scoring percentage but considerably fewer goals.

Paul Robinson had a 100% goal conversion rate last season if I'm not mistaken.

FFS, in a thread about converting chances, how many more of you cnuts are gonna completely miss the fecking point?!? You don't judge someone's finishing ability by how many chances/shots they get, you judge it by the proportion of those chances they put away!!

Jaysus, this thread is hard work.

Sam#1 · 26th March 2008, 15:35

I've given up Pogue.

Feed Me · 26th March 2008, 15:36

What we need to see is a list of goals to shots ratio.

jojojo · 26th March 2008, 15:36

shots/ on target/ goals/ shots:shots on/ shots:goal
Ronaldo 110 62 25 1.8 4.4
Adebayor 86 40 19 2.2 4.5
Torres 83 40 20 2.1 4.2
Rooney 65 36 8 1.8 8.1
Tevez 71 39 11 1.8 6.5
Nani 50 20 3 2.5 16.7
Berbatov 69 36 13 1.9 5.3

This season PL only.

If you want a bit of history:
Rooney 2006 123 46 16 2.7 7.7
Rooney 2007 108 45 14 2.4 7.7
Ronaldo 2006 80 31 9 2.6 8.9
Ronaldo 2007 145 67 17 2.2 8.5

Rooney's hit rate hasn't changed much in the past three years
Ronaldo's has, particularly this year, and I think it's made people more sensitive

Ace · 26th March 2008, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

FFS, in a thread about converting chances, how many more of you cnuts are gonna completely miss the fecking point?!? You don't judge someone's finishing ability by how many chances/shots they get, you judge it by the proportion of those chances they put away!!

Jaysus, this thread is hard work.

So you agree with me then?

A player who scores more goals is more of an asset (statistically speaking) then a player who scores fewer.

Pogue Mahone · 26th March 2008, 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feed Me

What we need to see is a list of goals to shots ratio.

Good idea.

Tell you what? Why not work this out as a percentage and call it something like... oh I dunno.... Chance Conversion?

That would be a useful statistic for this thread wouldn't it?

Pogue Mahone · 26th March 2008, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace

So you agree with me then?

A player who scores more goals is more of an asset (statistically speaking) then a player who scores fewer.

Yes.

I'd have to say I agree with that conclusion, controversial though it at first seems.

Feed Me · 26th March 2008, 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by jojojo

shots/ on target/ goals/ shots:shots on/ shots:goal
Ronaldo 110 62 25 1.8 4.4
Adebayor 86 40 19 2.2 4.5
Torres 83 40 20 2.1 4.2
Rooney 65 36 8 1.8 8.1
Tevez 71 39 11 1.8 6.5
Nani 50 20 3 2.5 16.7
Berbatov 69 36 13 1.9 5.3

So this season, Ronaldo, Adebayor and Torres basically need half as many shots to score a goal as Rooney. Tevez has a better ratio as does Berbatov. The overrated Torres has the best goals to shots ratio on the list.

The stats kinda prove my point about Wayne's profligacy, I am inclined to say.

Ace · 26th March 2008, 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Yes.

I'd have to say I agree with that conclusion, controversial though it at first seems.

That is all I was trying to say, probably in more words then were needed.

If you guys want to really add controversy to the debate, address the topic player influence over goals scored.

Example being: Wayne Rooney only scoring 8 goals, but having such an outstanding record when he is on the pitch; in contrast to a player like Roque Santa Cruz with 14 premiership goals for an average team.

Plechazunga · 26th March 2008, 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Alternatively, in the Rubber-man/IK parallel universe, player B obviously plays for a better team. This means he get presented with better chances so his chance conversion rate over-estimates how good he really he is, making player A the better striker.

Only in the caf, eh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Good idea.

Tell you what? Why not work this out as a percentage and call it something like... oh I dunno.... Chance Conversion?

That would be a useful statistic for this thread wouldn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Yes.

I'd have to say I agree with that conclusion, controversial though it at first seems.

Pogue Mahone · 26th March 2008, 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feed Me

So this season, Ronaldo, Adebayor and Torres basically need half as many shots to score a goal as Rooney. Tevez has a better ratio as does Berbatov. The overrated Torres has the best goals to shots ratio on the list.

The stats kinda prove my point about Wayne's profligacy, I am inclined to say.

They prove that Ronaldo, Adebayor and Torres are all having a better season than Rooney. That's about as un-surprising a conclusion as Ace's comment that it's a good thing to have prolific goal-scorers in your team.

What they don't prove is that Rooney is a "shite" finisher or that has never been (and never will be) any good at finishing.

Feed Me · 26th March 2008, 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

They prove that Ronaldo, Adebayor and Torres are all having a better season than Rooney. That's about as un-surprising a conclusion as Ace's comment that it's a good thing to have prolific goal-scorers in your team.

What they don't prove is that Rooney is a "shite" finisher or that has never been (and never will be) any good at finishing.

8 shots for 1 goal. That is not the statistic of a class finisher. Rooney has many world class redeeming qualities, finishing is not one of them. He needs to get back to basics in front of goal.

Plechazunga · 26th March 2008, 15:48

Does anyone fancy a game of "Let's be about as thick as is humanly possible"

Oh sorry you're already playing...

Feed Me · 26th March 2008, 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

Does anyone fancy a game of "Let's be about as thick as is humanly possible"

Oh sorry you're already playing...

Come on then Plech enlighten us...

Is Rooney a natural finisher?
Should he be scoring more?
Does he fluff too many chances for such a top class player? If yes, can we attribute that to his injury problems - or is that a cop out?

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 26th March 2008, 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Player A gets 100 chances and scores 20 of them.

Player B gets 200 chances and scores 40 of them.

Which player has a better chance conversion %?

HINT: This may be a trick question.

Plechazunga · 26th March 2008, 15:52

I wasn't really talking to you FM, I actually agree with most of your first post

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 26th March 2008, 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam#1

So Berbatov, Keane and Bent now constitute 4 fit strikers ?

Wow!

I put Defoe in my list too. You chose to pick out those 3. Besides Saha is almost never fit. Yet still has 19 shots. That says it all...

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 26th March 2008, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by pillory

Erm, why are we only looking at shots by attackers? Why not the whole team? What are we discussing?

Read a thread before posting. It makes things easier for you

26th March 2008, 15:29	#368 (permalink)
wolfshead AKA Dickhead Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: We Are Utd & We Rule Posts: 1,620	I'd say wayne is getting back to form and when he is firing on all cylinders the goals will come as fergie says strikers can get a goal glut and just cant stop scoring it'll happen for wayne-if he hits form now he'll singlehandedly drive the rest of the campaign

26th March 2008, 15:35	#372 (permalink)
Sam#1 First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Leroy Lita Posts: 13,439	I've given up Pogue.

26th March 2008, 15:36	#373 (permalink)
Feed Me bobbobray - hits women. Big man Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Berbatov has Cantona’s knack of being the man amid a stampede towards the door who stops to notice a side exit that nobody else has seen. Posts: 9,163	What we need to see is a list of goals to shots ratio.

26th March 2008, 15:36	#374 (permalink)
jojojo Reserve Team Player Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: It was a life before - it'll be a life after Posts: 1,494	shots/ on target/ goals/ shots:shots on/ shots:goal Ronaldo 110 62 25 1.8 4.4 Adebayor 86 40 19 2.2 4.5 Torres 83 40 20 2.1 4.2 Rooney 65 36 8 1.8 8.1 Tevez 71 39 11 1.8 6.5 Nani 50 20 3 2.5 16.7 Berbatov 69 36 13 1.9 5.3 This season PL only. If you want a bit of history: Rooney 2006 123 46 16 2.7 7.7 Rooney 2007 108 45 14 2.4 7.7 Ronaldo 2006 80 31 9 2.6 8.9 Ronaldo 2007 145 67 17 2.2 8.5 Rooney's hit rate hasn't changed much in the past three years Ronaldo's has, particularly this year, and I think it's made people more sensitive

26th March 2008, 15:48	#383 (permalink)
Plechazunga Phones, soup, paint and chairs are troubling. Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the principality is chief executive of David evroshampiona Gil. Posts: 49,722	Does anyone fancy a game of "Let's be about as thick as is humanly possible" Oh sorry you're already playing...

26th March 2008, 15:52	#386 (permalink)
Plechazunga Phones, soup, paint and chairs are troubling. Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the principality is chief executive of David evroshampiona Gil. Posts: 49,722	I wasn't really talking to you FM, I actually agree with most of your first post