Wayne Rooney

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 27th March 2008, 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekeke

You're confusing a style with technique..

I'm doing no such thing. Technique as you have described it is skill. Style is talent. (Which isn't "chosen" either by the way)

robthered · 27th March 2008, 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

I'm doing no such thing. Technique as you have described it is skill. Style is talent. (Which isn't "chosen" either by the way)

Chief, please read my post. I promise it will help.

Pat_Mustard · 27th March 2008, 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Which is were you are wrong. Anyone can pass a ball. Passing it with accuracy, at the right moment, at the right time, at the right distance, while picking out which exact pass to use, with the perfect weight is what is talent. Not merely passing the ball.

It was a parody of your post about Rooney, Messi and dribbling, which you've since edited.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 27th March 2008, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by robthered

Chief if you can't be bothered with any more of that 'drivel' why should I bother explaining it to you again. As someone who actually has a passing (that's a skill) knowledge of this subject matter I don't see why you don't want to engage with what I've said. I've answered your question above.

If you had really answered my question above. I wouldn't bother asking such a question. You in that post simple said what I've been saying all along, in a more verbose fashion. Yet now an in that same post you call it rubbish. I can't be expected to take serious what you post if you don't buy in to it yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robthered

You never were one to let knowledge or facts get in the way of a good argument were you.

Neither will I ever be

fredthered · 27th March 2008, 10:45

People can be taught skill.. You cant teach natural ability.

You've either got it or you havent..

Players arent necessarily chosen for their natural ability, its how they apply that ability alongside the skills the managers are going to try to teach them. When the two work cohesively ie skill and talent ( which you have with Rooney and Ronaldo ) then you have a top quality player.

Pogue Mahone · 27th March 2008, 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Neither will I ever be

Ain't that the truth!

fredthered · 27th March 2008, 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Ain't that the truth!

And fair fucks to him..

I like people who are prepared to stand their ground and argue their corner, rather than tow the party line..

All hail the chief...

Ekeke · 27th March 2008, 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

I'm doing no such thing. Technique as you have described it is skill. Style is talent. (Which isn't "chosen" either by the way)

I didnt describe it Chief, dictonary.com did.

There are many ways to do one thing. The one you pick (some you cannot as you dont have the capacity to achieve it) is your style.

Pat_Mustard · 27th March 2008, 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Ain't that the truth!

I thought I was seeing things when he wrote that!

Pogue Mahone · 27th March 2008, 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredthered

People can be taught skill.. You cant teach natural ability.

You can't teach natural ability but it can be improved upon, with practice. I'm kind of amazed that people are still trying to deny this. But The Chief has always been a bit of a mystery to me, to be fair.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 27th March 2008, 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat_Mustard

It was a parody of your post about Rooney, Messi and dribbling, which you've since edited.

Rather it was your lame attempt at trying to find something wrong with what I said.

Pogue Mahone · 27th March 2008, 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredthered

And fair fucks to him..

I like people who are prepared to stand their ground and argue their corner, rather than tow the party line..

All hail the chief...

I'm a big fan of the Chief, don't get me wrong.

But it all gets a bit pointless (not to mention surreal) when people decide to fight their corner, without resorting to facts or knowledge.

Pat_Mustard · 27th March 2008, 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Rather it was your lame attempt at trying to find something wrong with what I said.

You found something wrong with it or else you wouldn't have slid back to edit it would you?

robthered · 27th March 2008, 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

If you had really answered my question above. I wouldn't bother asking such a question. You in that post simple said what I've been saying all along, in a more verbose fashion. Yet now you are calling it rubbish. I can't be expected to take serious what you post if you don't buy in to it yourself.

I never called it drivel, you did. I wasn't been 'verbose'. That's about as succintly as I could have put it. The words that people use to describe attributes or skills (which are completely different) are important and are what are causing most of this rather ridiculous argument.

If you want to ignore what I've posted and continue rumbling on with your fluidly constructed argument then really I can't say anything else.

robthered · 27th March 2008, 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat_Mustard

You found something wrong with it or else you wouldn't have slid back to edit it would you?

It's quite a neat trick though. Pretending to miss the point but then going back to change it.

Pat_Mustard · 27th March 2008, 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

You can't teach natural ability but it can be improved upon, with practice. I'm kind of amazed that people are still trying to deny this. But The Chief has always been a bit of a mystery to me, to be fair.

The mystery is that he thinks passing and shooting for example can be improved to the point of mastery, yet dribbling can't be improved at all.

They all rely on the development of motor skills (gross and/or fine, as Rob said), so why the distinction between them?

As for "vision, positioning...and game reading", whcih he lumped in with dribbling, he's yet to explain why he thinks that spatial or perceptual awareness can't be developed to a degree.

robthered · 27th March 2008, 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat_Mustard

The mystery is that he thinks passing and shooting for example can be improved to the point of mastery, yet dribbling can't be improved at all.

They all rely on the development of motor skills (gross and/or fine, as Rob said), so why the distinction between them?

As for "vision, positioning...and game reading", whcih he lumped in with dribbling, he's yet to explain why he thinks that spatial or perceptual awareness can't be developed to a degree.

I'd give up mate.

Lizard King · 27th March 2008, 11:02

I suggest some of you have a look at this website and in particular this page: http://www.brianmac.co.uk/tech.htm

It's a good website, helped me get an A in sports science at A-level.

robthered · 27th March 2008, 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lizard King

I suggest some of you have a look at this website and in particular this page: http://www.brianmac.co.uk/tech.htm

It's a good website, helped me get an A in sports science at A-level.

Nice try but we've already established that drivel, knowledge and facts have no place in this thread.

In light of this development there is a thread I remembered that will help in the discussion of different attributes and comparing Ronaldo and Rooney;

Cristiano has always been a taller player than Rooney

Lizard King · 27th March 2008, 11:08

Oooh oooh oooh look look:

Skill, Technique & Ability

A question often asked is what is the difference between skill, technique and ability?

What is a skill?
Skill is an athlete's ability to choose and perform the right techniques at the right time, successfully, regularly and with a minimum of effort. Athletes use their skill to achieve athletic objectives e.g. sprinting a 10.0 second 100 metres. Skill is acquired and therefore has to be learned.

Types of skills
Cognitive - involves thought processes
Perceptual - involves interpretation of information
Motor - involves movement
Psychologists have categorised human behaviour into three broad domains:

Cognitive skill (knowing) - know and understand the vital aspects of the sport
Affective behaviour (feeling) - success at the sport depends on mental attitude and developing psychological skills to cope with stress
Psychomotor skill (doing) - excellence in sport requires the execution of precise, fluent and effective movement patterns which require the combination of perceptual and motor skills

What is Technique?
Techniques are the basic movements of any sport or event e.g. a block start in a 100 metre race is a technique. We combine a number of techniques into a pattern of movement e.g. triple jump - running and then the hop, skip and jump phases.

What is ability?
Ability is the make up of an athlete that we inherit from our parents. Abilities underpin and contribute to skills. Abilities can be essentially perceptual, essentially motor or a combination of both. Most abilities to do with action are a combination and are referred to as psychomotor abilities. Now there is no definitive list of psychomotor abilities.

Stallings L M (1982 - Motor Learning from theory to Practice) identified the following psychomotor abilities: Muscular power and endurance, flexibility, balance, coordination and differential relaxation (selective adjustment of muscle tension).

Fleishman E A (1972 - The structure and measurement of psychomotor abilities.) identified the following nine psychomotor abilities (referred to as gross motor abilities): Extent flexibility, dynamic flexibility, explosive strength, static strength, dynamic strength, trunk strength, gross body coordination, gross body equilibrium and stamina.

If you are of average height, strong, good coordination and have an abundance of fast twitch fibres in your legs then you have the natural ability to be a sprinter.

Relationship between skill, ability and technique
SKILL = ABILITY + TECHNIQUE

From http://www.brianmac.co.uk/skills.htm

READ IT.

robthered · 27th March 2008, 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lizard King

Oooh oooh oooh look look:

Skill, Technique & Ability

A question often asked is what is the difference between skill, technique and ability?

What is a skill?
Skill is an athlete's ability to choose and perform the right techniques at the right time, successfully, regularly and with a minimum of effort. Athletes use their skill to achieve athletic objectives e.g. sprinting a 10.0 second 100 metres. Skill is acquired and therefore has to be learned.

Types of skills
Cognitive - involves thought processes
Perceptual - involves interpretation of information
Motor - involves movement
Psychologists have categorised human behaviour into three broad domains:

Cognitive skill (knowing) - know and understand the vital aspects of the sport
Affective behaviour (feeling) - success at the sport depends on mental attitude and developing psychological skills to cope with stress
Psychomotor skill (doing) - excellence in sport requires the execution of precise, fluent and effective movement patterns which require the combination of perceptual and motor skills

What is Technique?
Techniques are the basic movements of any sport or event e.g. a block start in a 100 metre race is a technique. We combine a number of techniques into a pattern of movement e.g. triple jump - running and then the hop, skip and jump phases.

What is ability?
Ability is the make up of an athlete that we inherit from our parents. Abilities underpin and contribute to skills. Abilities can be essentially perceptual, essentially motor or a combination of both. Most abilities to do with action are a combination and are referred to as psychomotor abilities. Now there is no definitive list of psychomotor abilities.

Stallings L M (1982 - Motor Learning from theory to Practice) identified the following psychomotor abilities: Muscular power and endurance, flexibility, balance, coordination and differential relaxation (selective adjustment of muscle tension).

Fleishman E A (1972 - The structure and measurement of psychomotor abilities.) identified the following nine psychomotor abilities (referred to as gross motor abilities): Extent flexibility, dynamic flexibility, explosive strength, static strength, dynamic strength, trunk strength, gross body coordination, gross body equilibrium and stamina.

If you are of average height, strong, good coordination and have an abundance of fast twitch fibres in your legs then you have the natural ability to be a sprinter.

Relationship between skill, ability and technique
SKILL = ABILITY + TECHNIQUE

From http://www.brianmac.co.uk/skills.htm

READ IT.

Glad I remembered my sport science lectures correctly then.

Pat_Mustard · 27th March 2008, 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by robthered

I'd give up mate.

Its strangely addictive though, arguing with someone who openly admits to refusing to let knowledge and facts get in the way of his argument.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 27th March 2008, 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredthered

People can be taught skill.. You cant teach natural ability.

You've either got it or you havent..

Players arent necessarily chosen for their natural ability, its how they apply that ability alongside the skills the managers are going to try to teach them. When the two work cohesively ie skill and talent ( which you have with Rooney and Ronaldo ) then you have a top quality player.

Spot on.

robthered · 27th March 2008, 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Spot on.

I'm pretty sure that's not what you've been saying at all (pre-editing)

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 27th March 2008, 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

You can't teach natural ability but it can be improved upon, with practice. I'm kind of amazed that people are still trying to deny this....

What is actually improved is the abilty to utilise the talent. Not the talent itself.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 27th March 2008, 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by robthered

I'm pretty sure that's not what you've been saying at all (pre-editing)

What Fred said is what I've been saying all along. You however are saying both talent and skill can be improved upon and skill can't be mastered.

jojojo · 27th March 2008, 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by robthered

Nice try but we've already established that drivel, knowledge and facts have no place in this thread.

In light of this development there is a thread I remembered that will help in the discussion of different attributes and comparing Ronaldo and Rooney;

27th March 2008, 10:45	#485 (permalink)
fredthered I want Peter Kenyon back Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: UK Posts: 14,491	People can be taught skill.. You cant teach natural ability. You've either got it or you havent.. Players arent necessarily chosen for their natural ability, its how they apply that ability alongside the skills the managers are going to try to teach them. When the two work cohesively ie skill and talent ( which you have with Rooney and Ronaldo ) then you have a top quality player.

27th March 2008, 11:02	#498 (permalink)
Lizard King Join Date: May 2007 Location: Manchester Posts: 12,302	I suggest some of you have a look at this website and in particular this page: http://www.brianmac.co.uk/tech.htm It's a good website, helped me get an A in sports science at A-level.

27th March 2008, 11:08	#500 (permalink)
Lizard King Join Date: May 2007 Location: Manchester Posts: 12,302	Oooh oooh oooh look look: Skill, Technique & Ability A question often asked is what is the difference between skill, technique and ability? What is a skill? Skill is an athlete's ability to choose and perform the right techniques at the right time, successfully, regularly and with a minimum of effort. Athletes use their skill to achieve athletic objectives e.g. sprinting a 10.0 second 100 metres. Skill is acquired and therefore has to be learned. Types of skills Cognitive - involves thought processes Perceptual - involves interpretation of information Motor - involves movement Psychologists have categorised human behaviour into three broad domains: Cognitive skill (knowing) - know and understand the vital aspects of the sport Affective behaviour (feeling) - success at the sport depends on mental attitude and developing psychological skills to cope with stress Psychomotor skill (doing) - excellence in sport requires the execution of precise, fluent and effective movement patterns which require the combination of perceptual and motor skills What is Technique? Techniques are the basic movements of any sport or event e.g. a block start in a 100 metre race is a technique. We combine a number of techniques into a pattern of movement e.g. triple jump - running and then the hop, skip and jump phases. What is ability? Ability is the make up of an athlete that we inherit from our parents. Abilities underpin and contribute to skills. Abilities can be essentially perceptual, essentially motor or a combination of both. Most abilities to do with action are a combination and are referred to as psychomotor abilities. Now there is no definitive list of psychomotor abilities. Stallings L M (1982 - Motor Learning from theory to Practice) identified the following psychomotor abilities: Muscular power and endurance, flexibility, balance, coordination and differential relaxation (selective adjustment of muscle tension). Fleishman E A (1972 - The structure and measurement of psychomotor abilities.) identified the following nine psychomotor abilities (referred to as gross motor abilities): Extent flexibility, dynamic flexibility, explosive strength, static strength, dynamic strength, trunk strength, gross body coordination, gross body equilibrium and stamina. If you are of average height, strong, good coordination and have an abundance of fast twitch fibres in your legs then you have the natural ability to be a sprinter. Relationship between skill, ability and technique SKILL = ABILITY + TECHNIQUE From http://www.brianmac.co.uk/skills.htm READ IT.