Wayne Rooney

Eto'odinho

Really? step forward Danny Cadamarteri, Michael Owen, Fat Ronaldo, Alan Smith and a few others

CnutOfAllCnuts

I was better as a 18 year old

Pogue Mahone

You're fucking kidding, right?

First of all, not one of these players was at their peak when they were 18. Secondly, serious, long-term injuries can always hinder a players development. But surely to feck you knew that already?

What is it with this thread and dragging lunatics out from under their rocks? Is there a full moon or something?

Pogue Mahone

Me too. Now you mention it.

Luckily a booze-soaked late adolescence and 20 ciggies/day is rarely thought of as the best way to develop talented young footballers

(Not that I was ever a talented young footballer. Not even close.)

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

No way. Your God given talent is your default state. A limitation. You can never do things beyond your talent. All one can do however is master the art of utilising it. Which is where it becomes a starting point. On the road to acquiring skills. Which in terms of talent is commonly called the road to maturity. No one can ever get better at a talent. That is impossible. But with practice one can learn to maximise its use and effect.
That's obvious.

Rather what beggers belief is you're calling someone improving skills to better utilise talent "improving on natural talent".

Rather trying to deny what such players clearly represent is just obfuscation in the worst way.

Because they improved/mastered their skills. Which in turn helped enhance their ability to utilize their natural talents! Surely, this can't be too hard to understand or disputable.

You act as if you've never seen people with bags of talent who have done next to nothing with it like Recoba. As compared to less naturally talented individuals like Beckham. All because of who acquired more skills than the other

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

True that. In addition, according to Pogue you are more talented now than you were at 18

CnutOfAllCnuts

Talent is the same.

The speed and the stamina is not.

I can still ping the ball Jan Mølby style though.

Plechazunga

Afternoon cretins

Scholesy

The Chief is a legend. FACT.

He seems to be the only one who agrees with me, talent is limited. You cant become better than youre made to be.

Pogue Mahone

I'll tell you what really beggars belief. Your ability to cram so many contradictory statements into a single post. That takes quite some doing.

Pogue Mahone

What you need to ask yourself is, does this make it more or less likely that your original opinion was correct?

Hmmm...

Plechazunga

Right, I don't think anyone would disagree that natural talent imposes an upper limit. Now, how do you find out what that upper limit is?

Let's take two examples. Player A, let's call him Alf, and player B, let's call him Titus Bramble. They're both apprentices up to the age of 16.

After that, Alf trains hard every day, while Bramble is locked in a large picnic hamper for the next five years. Then he's let out, trains for a few weeks to get match-fit, and is put in the same team as Alf. Which do you reckon would play better? Do you think Alf's five extra years of practice, experience and working to both improve and compensate for the weaknesses in his game might have made him better than Bramble?

Feed Me

Step forward: Roy Keane. SAF said that Keane was no where near the best player in the United squad. He said that he was no where near being the fastest - however if there was a training drill with say, 20 yard sprints, Keano would be a front runner - because of his mentality.

The fact is you are talking nonesense - if daily training is just about as you seem to think, maintenance and staying in shape, then footballers would merely need to stay in the gym all day long - what would be the point of bothering to train, if you are correct? The fact is, you seem to neglect the fact that footballers tactical awareness and fundamental things like control of a ball, passing the ball accurately etc etc are all influenced by daily practice. Which clever bugger was it that said, "Practice makes perfect?"

So in summation - talent is limitless, as there is a funny old thing called determination which can drive you onto higher levels.

robthered

Natural attribute, improved through practice and experience.

Eto'odinho

Calm down Pogey, I'll give you the injury bit for majority of those players BUT Alan Smith was considerably better at 18 than he was at 25, I'm sure there are plenty more of his kind. It just goes on to show that age doesn't necessarily translate to an upward improvement of a player.

Scholesy

You can improve physically, and your decision making, which is bound to make you a better player. But every player does this through training and matches, and it is quite clear that, take Rooney and Michael Chopra, similar ages, both train hard however it is clearer Rooney has more talent. Talent is everything.

Pogue Mahone

Ah but I would. Your upper limit comes when age starts to erode away your natural athleticism, it's nothing to do with natural talent. Natural talent just defines your starting point. From which you will always improve.

Depending how long your career is, how many injuries you pick up, how well you look after yourself and how you apply yourself in training, you will improve upon this natural talent by a greater or lesser extent.

Of course, if you lock yourself in picnic basket you may actually go backwards.

Pogue Mahone

Dr. Dwayne

shouldn't we factor in fast twitch muscle fibre content to the natural attribute equation?

Plechazunga

It does impose an upper limit, if they gave Kevin Kilbane magic pills that kept him athletic enough to play till he was eighty, he;d still never be better than quite crap.

Plechazunga

If talent was everything, physical and mental improvement wouldn't 'make you a better player'. Talent counts for a lot, but nowhere near everything, that's why Phil Neville's had a far more successful career than many much more talented players.

Pogue Mahone

It does. Always.

Obviously, injuries muddy the waters, as do players who don't put the effort in in training.

What seems to be confusing you is that it's quite possible for a players to be a prodigy at 18 but an average player at 25. They haven't got worse as footballers, in fact they've got better. But, crucially, they've got better by a lesser amount than their peers (through injuries, laziness whatever) which makes them seem to go backwards but all they've actually done is go backwards compared to everyone else.

If you were to take any of the players you first mentioned and somehow play them alongside their 18 year-old selves, they would almost always be better footballers in their mid-twenties than they were in their teens.

Obviously, there are some exceptions. If someone picks up a really serious injury (with permanent sequelae) or if someone just takes the piss in training and stops making any effort at all - then, and only then, they might actually deteriorate as a player. Otherwise, every single professional footballer will improve over the course of their professional career (up until their mid to late twenties at least)

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Rather what is embarrassing is you expecting everyone to fall in line with your line of thinking. Even when it is clearly flawed bullshit. I frankly don't have to prove anything to you. If it is your choice to be stupid and insist natural talent can increased and is not a limitation. So be it. Just don't waste your time trying to convert me into you

Pogue Mahone

He'd be a better player than he is now, that's for sure.

It's all moot anyway, because there aren't any magic pills so footballers have finite time in which they can improve their game. It doesn't happen quickly enough for someone to transform themselves from Titus Bramble to Zinedine Zidane, over the course of their career, obviously.

For poor auld Kevin Kilbane, the best he can hope for, over this period of 10-15 years is to improve from "shite" to "meh". But he will definitely improve, bless his cotton socks.

Psmith

It seems the Chief has over complicated things again. Has he mentioned Richardson is as talented as Giggs yet?

It's really quite simple. If your good at football, you can improve it by practicing more to eventually reach your upper limit.

And I'm going to digress a bit. People keep mentioning natural talent. But what's 'natural' about kicking a ball? There seems to be quite a few different defiinitions of talent and skill flying about.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber