Wayne Rooney

Pogue Mahone · 27th March 2008, 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

Not all players constantly get better though. Sometimes an incredibly talented player can fall off, and not always due to injury or lack of application. Sometimes the mojo just goes. All sorts of factors go into being able to compete at the top level and keep improving, and a big one is will to win. Some players win a certain amount, and then just lose the hunger, they may keep training just as diligently but something in them goes.

You probably have a point. But you do wonder if the players who fall away really are being as diligent in training as they think they are?

I also wonder if falling away actually means getting worse or just failing to keep improving at the same rate as their peers. Of course, once this happens it probably messes with their heads, they get even more de-motivated and it all becomes a bit of a vicious circle.

Plechazunga · 27th March 2008, 21:45

True. It's sometimes a bit of an arms race out there. For instance, wingers very often have one good season and a poor one after as they are developing, happened to Giggsy, Ronaldo, Robben, Lennon... the reason I think is that defenders work them out, they learn where to position themselves so they don't commit and get done for pace so easily... then the wingers have to adapt and raise their games... you can imagine getting demoralised if you're a young lad and can't work out why what used to work doesn't anymore.

CnutOfAllCnuts · 27th March 2008, 21:57

I once slept with a hedgehog of very little talent.

Then I trained it, and it became amazing!

Pogue Mahone · 27th March 2008, 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

True. It's sometimes a bit of an arms race out there. For instance, wingers very often have one good season and a poor one after as they are developing, happened to Giggsy, Ronaldo, Robben, Lennon... the reason I think is that defenders work them out, they learn where to position themselves so they don't commit and get done for pace so easily... then the wingers have to adapt and raise their games... you can imagine getting demoralised if you're a young lad and can't work out why what used to work doesn't anymore.

Really good examples those. Wingers are tricky beasts, because so much of their game relies on being creative and doing the unexpected. Which is really difficult to coach. Plus the psychology of all footballers is a massive factor in how well they play. Can that improve with practise and experience? Probably. But it all gets hellish complicated.

Plechazunga · 27th March 2008, 22:02

Yeah wingers are fragile cnuts as a rule. Not Ronnie though, he's got balls of steel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CnutOfAllCnuts

I once slept with a hedgehog of very little talent.

Then I trained it, and it became amazing!

Sam#1 · 27th March 2008, 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by CnutOfAllCnuts

Sam, I reckon Sir Alex bought Rooney based on the media hype and Euro 2004. Don't you agree?

It would have had a massive impact.

Euro 2004 just reinforced the belief that Rooney was the best talent England have had since Gazza.

It was also the reason he cost £27 million.

Pat_Mustard · 28th March 2008, 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Whether this improvement reflects a change in his "skills" or "abilities" doesn't really matter, so long as he gets better at finishing. The whole skill/ability/talent crap got dragged into the debate when the Chief got caught up in ever-decreasing circles of logic-free mentalism. If a player gets better at scoring goals it really doesn't matter what words are used to describe this improvement.

Thank fuck I got out when I still could. I only wasted most of my morning arguing with someone who proudly admits to ignoring knowledge and fact.

jojojo · 28th March 2008, 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plechazunga

True. It's sometimes a bit of an arms race out there. For instance, wingers very often have one good season and a poor one after as they are developing, happened to Giggsy, Ronaldo, Robben, Lennon... the reason I think is that defenders work them out, they learn where to position themselves so they don't commit and get done for pace so easily... then the wingers have to adapt and raise their games... you can imagine getting demoralised if you're a young lad and can't work out why what used to work doesn't anymore.

Plus other team members tend to be gentler with the new kid - less balls that play them into trouble, more support, better cover so it's not such a big deal if they lose the ball. A year or so on and they have to look after themselves and fight their own battles, less allowance for youth and none for inexperience when they do screw up.

Which is part of what's happened to Rooney since he was the amazing kid. We rely on him so much and expect so much that we hark back to a golden age before the team relied on him and when everything he did was like unwrapping another Christmas present and the goals (which were fewer back in those days though you wouldn't think so at times!) felt like a bonus.

KingEric7 · 29th March 2008, 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Why separate skill and ability? It's a meaningless distinction.

This whole (ludicrously protracted) argument started when people tried to claim that Rooney will "never" be a good finisher and I made the point that absolutely every aspect of his game (including finishing) will improve as he continues to mature and develop as a footballer. The harder he works at it the more he will improve.

Whether this improvement reflects a change in his "skills" or "abilities" doesn't really matter, so long as he gets better at finishing. The whole skill/ability/talent crap got dragged into the debate when the Chief got caught up in ever-decreasing circles of logic-free mentalism. If a player gets better at scoring goals it really doesn't matter what words are used to describe this improvement.

It's not meaningless. Take for example, intelligence.
Some kids back at school used to work day and night and still not get the desired grades. The application is there, but they are limited by their intelligence (ability).
On the other end of the scale, you get the kids that work at a minimal level, yet they'd always acheive high grades. This is because they have a huge level of ability, and it only needs to be worked on slightly.

At the end of the day, finishing is a skill and Rooney can improve that. What Van Nistelrooy has is an ability to be in the right place and that comes naturally and cannot be improved.
Basically, i'm agreeing with you.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 29th March 2008, 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat_Mustard

Thank fuck I got out when I still could. I only wasted most of my morning arguing with someone who proudly admits to ignoring knowledge and fact.

Which shows how easily befuddled you are. I said I was not one to let knowledge or facts get in the way of an argument meaning when you let knowledge or facts get in the way you will never listen to another persons view. Because there "facts and knowledge":' are not always like yours. Because you can both be right about something. Yet have divergent fact and knowledge on the same issue. . .

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 29th March 2008, 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Why separate skill and ability? It's a meaningless distinction.

..........

The problem with you is you delved into semantics in order to make your point more valid. There is a clear as day light distinction between talent and skill. Trying to hide behind semantics to deny the distinction is too ridiculous for words.

Raven_Blade · 29th March 2008, 20:35

Go around the keeper more often Wayne and your finishing will be just fine. You cant always chip them.

Veron · 29th March 2008, 21:03

He's been criminal in front of goal,the amount of easy chaces he's misses every game.

I'm starting to wonder whether its his technique or mentality that seems to be the problem.Can he ever be lethal in front of goal.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 30th March 2008, 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veron

He's been criminal in front of goal,the amount of easy chaces he's misses every game.

I'm starting to wonder whether its his technique or mentality that seems to be the problem.Can he ever be lethal in front of goal.

Remember Henry mate. Remember Henry.

Tevez32 · 30th March 2008, 08:04

He could have had 4 goals yesterday if he was on form but now hopefully he will continue his run until the end of the season and cap the year by scoring a winner in Moscow in May.

gh78 · 30th March 2008, 14:18

Really good interview here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ay/7321097.stm

BahamaRed · 30th March 2008, 14:26

Roon has been fabulous all year except for his finishing. As strikers go this is normal. It will change and yesterday was a good start.

Pogue Mahone · 30th March 2008, 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingEric7

It's not meaningless. Take for example, intelligence.
Some kids back at school used to work day and night and still not get the desired grades. The application is there, but they are limited by their intelligence (ability).
On the other end of the scale, you get the kids that work at a minimal level, yet they'd always acheive high grades. This is because they have a huge level of ability, and it only needs to be worked on slightly.

At the end of the day, finishing is a skill and Rooney can improve that. What Van Nistelrooy has is an ability to be in the right place and that comes naturally and cannot be improved.
Basically, i'm agreeing with you.

Indeed you are agreeing with me. We're all going in circles and basically saying the same thing, apart from the left-field contributions from Chief and Scholesy, that is

To use your school analogy, even the thick kids can improve their grades by working hard and the bright ones can fuck up if they take the piss. In the same way, Rooney can improve his finishing with practice. He might never get as good at finishing as someone like Ruud or Ole but he can and will improve.

Took his goals brilliantly yesterday, that's for sure

fredthered · 30th March 2008, 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Yes it can.

Ronaldo was born with tremendous natural ability but he wouldn't be half the player he is now if he didn't work his bollox off in training, week in, week out.

This whole argument is going round in circles.

Put it this way, I don't know if any of you ever get the chance to talk to professional athletes (who play any sport) but if you do, ask them if they think there's a single element of their game that doesn't respond to hard work in training?

Every elite athlete has only reached the levels they did because they work at their game and constantly seek to improve in everything they do. And if they don't constantly improve their game they will get left behind.

What's really amazing is when you get players who reach phenomenal heights without ever really grafting. Cause that poses the question of just how good they could have been with the right amount of application?

I always think of George Best when Fergie mentions the amount of work that Ronaldo and Rooney put in training. People are already comparing Ronaldo to best but if Best had trained as hard as modern footballers (or even as hard as his more dedicated peers) there would be no comparison and he would be head and shoulders the best footballer to have ever walked the planet. By a country mile.

You've somehow managed to argue against me using the very point I made. Amazing really...

Natural ability is there. You cannot improve nor lose it. It exists within you.

You can however become a better player by applying new skills you learn to the ability you already have.

Alex · 30th March 2008, 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veron

He's been criminal in front of goal,the amount of easy chaces he's misses every game.

I'm starting to wonder whether its his technique or mentality that seems to be the problem.Can he ever be lethal in front of goal.

Reckon it takes time to get your shot back after breaking your foot, let alone 3 times in 3 years

Pogue Mahone · 30th March 2008, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredthered

You've somehow managed to argue against me using the very point I made. Amazing really...

Natural ability is there. You cannot improve nor lose it. It exists within you.

You can however become a better player by applying new skills you learn to the ability you already have.

You've somehow managed to argue against me using the very point I made. Amazing really...

ooeat0meoo · 30th March 2008, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by CnutOfAllCnuts

Is it a wet dream of yours?

No, although it would be funny.

Feed Me · 30th March 2008, 23:31

I'm delighted that Wayne has finally banged a few goals in. Here is to hoping that he can go on one of his hot streaks.

Two very composed finishes against Villa. He needs to do more of the same in front of goal.

Raven_Blade · 30th March 2008, 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feed Me

I'm delighted that Wayne has finally banged a few goals in. Here is to hoping that he can go on one of his hot streaks.

Two very composed finishes against Villa. He needs to do more of the same in front of goal.

Thats right. Sometimes he just needs to make it easy for himself. I think I saw somewhere that Fabio Capello thinks he is a scorer of great goals but not a great goal scorer.

Simon Adebesi · 31st March 2008, 00:28

i loved the bit in rooney's interview with motd when he said: "We play like Brazil. its a privilidge to play in this team. I love it."

Nice one Rooney.

BahamaRed · 31st March 2008, 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Adebesi

i loved the bit in rooney's interview with motd when he said: "We play like Brazil. its a privilidge to play in this team. I love it."

Nice one Rooney.

I was just thinking about that too.

It's a privilege to watch you Wayne!

Fergies Formula · 31st March 2008, 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamaRed

I was just thinking about that too.

It's a privilege to watch you Wayne!

seconded

Pogue Mahone · 31st March 2008, 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fergies Formula

seconded

I loved that bit too

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle3649104.ece

The Times did a quality match report, where they talked about how much Rooney is loving his football for United. Well worth a read:

Wayne Rooney waxes lyrical over team of talents
Manchester United 4 Aston Villa 0

In the closing stages of this master-class, as the rain lashed down on Old Trafford and thousands of spectators opted to make an early getaway, something remarkable happened. Anderson, Manchester United’s wonderfully talented Brazilian substitute, struck one of his characteristic cross-field passes and, far away on the right-hand touchline, Wayne Rooney applauded as the ball flew 50 yards towards his right boot, with which he brought it down, before proceeding goalwards.

On this occasion, nothing was to come of Anderson’s pass or Rooney’s close control, with United having to settle for four goals against Aston Villa, but in one sense that cameo was almost as memorable as Cristiano Ronaldo’s latest wonder goal. It was a moment that encapsulated something of Rooney’s delight in playing for this United team of many talents and, coming three days after he grimaced his way through England’s dreary friendly international against France in Paris, it was a joy to see him enjoying his football again.

On his way out of the Stade de France on Wednesday, Rooney did not stop to speak to reporters, but on Saturday evening, after a stellar performance and his first two goals in eight appearances for his club and country, he was, at least by his standards, effusive. At one point, unprompted, he likened this United side to the Brazil teams h

27th March 2008, 21:45	#602 (permalink)
Plechazunga Phones, soup, paint and chairs are troubling. Join Date: May 2003 Location: My enthusiasm is the same. I love this club. It is not about brochures. Posts: 49,498	True. It's sometimes a bit of an arms race out there. For instance, wingers very often have one good season and a poor one after as they are developing, happened to Giggsy, Ronaldo, Robben, Lennon... the reason I think is that defenders work them out, they learn where to position themselves so they don't commit and get done for pace so easily... then the wingers have to adapt and raise their games... you can imagine getting demoralised if you're a young lad and can't work out why what used to work doesn't anymore.

27th March 2008, 21:57	#603 (permalink)
CnutOfAllCnuts Bald Boring Cnut Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 18,014	I once slept with a hedgehog of very little talent. Then I trained it, and it became amazing!

29th March 2008, 20:35	#612 (permalink)
Raven_Blade Attention Whoring Common Crow Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ronaldo Thread. Posts: 13,842	Go around the keeper more often Wayne and your finishing will be just fine. You cant always chip them.

29th March 2008, 21:03	#613 (permalink)
Veron Varun Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,901	He's been criminal in front of goal,the amount of easy chaces he's misses every game. I'm starting to wonder whether its his technique or mentality that seems to be the problem.Can he ever be lethal in front of goal.

30th March 2008, 08:04	#615 (permalink)
Tevez32 Youth Team Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 299	He could have had 4 goals yesterday if he was on form but now hopefully he will continue his run until the end of the season and cap the year by scoring a winner in Moscow in May.

30th March 2008, 14:18	#616 (permalink)
gh78 Reserve Team Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 902	Really good interview here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ay/7321097.stm

30th March 2008, 14:26	#617 (permalink)
BahamaRed Legend Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: Location: Location: Posts: 8,598	Roon has been fabulous all year except for his finishing. As strikers go this is normal. It will change and yesterday was a good start.

30th March 2008, 23:31	#623 (permalink)
Feed Me bobbobray - hits women. Big man Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: 'I have another year left and what do contracts mean anyway? In five or six games I'll probably be sacked anyway' - Keane. Posts: 8,479	I'm delighted that Wayne has finally banged a few goals in. Here is to hoping that he can go on one of his hot streaks. Two very composed finishes against Villa. He needs to do more of the same in front of goal.

31st March 2008, 00:28	#625 (permalink)
Simon Adebesi Reserve Team Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Sanctity, like a cat, abhors filth. Posts: 1,745	i loved the bit in rooney's interview with motd when he said: "We play like Brazil. its a privilidge to play in this team. I love it." Nice one Rooney.