Wayne Rooney

fatboy · 13th March 2008, 03:47

Despite what people say about Tevez and Rooney being a good partnership, I actually think that he's still better off playing as a withdrawn striker. Thing is, Rooney has seldom had a good run playing in his natural position.

Yes he's a terrific footballer, he'd play decently on the wings, leading the line upfront, and even in midfield. But "decent" is not what you pay 20+mil for. Saha would probably be the ideal partner, but unfortunately, he's hardly ever available. Stick Rooney in the withdrawn role with a (frequently fit) striker who can lead the line, and you'll see what he's really all about.

In some ways, Tevez (for playing in Rooney's best position) and Saha (for being frequently unfit) are hindering Rooney from maximising his potential. He is still a terrific terrific player.

Dippersripper · 13th March 2008, 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by crappycraperson

The point from the main post I want to touch upon is the work rate vs Technical ability one. This is the area of Rooney's game which worries me the most ATM. He is getting lauded more for his work rate than footballing skill. His first touch was superb two seasons back but he seems to have lost that due to some reason.

I am more and more coming around to the idea that this is just not down to bad form anymore. Whether it is repeatedly changed positions, injuries or burnout, Rooney is not playing at the level he should be ATM.

When anybody says Rooney offers more to the team than scoring goals, they probably don't mean work rate. Rooney creates a lot of space for others and his passing is awesome while still inconsistent. Look at his assist few weeks ago for Rio's goal. That is what we are talking about.

CantonaVeron · 13th March 2008, 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanchelskis14

I think some of the problem is down to an over-expectation on the lad. I reckon essentially, Rooney isn't as good as many make out, although he is very good. I think he's good like say, Joe Cole is good, very good, but not elite i'd say. I reckon Rooney is a very good player, who is capable of moments of brilliance, but will generally average out as 'good', or even 'very good'.

I think when we come to the 'world class' arguments, people will bring up a great goal he scored two years ago, or a cross field pass in the last game. Reading the threads after the Pompey game, someone even mentioned his 2 yard pass as part of a one-two with Ronaldo. The fact is, many good players can do special things. If a Chelsea fan wanted to argue whether Joe Cole was world class or not, he could obviously call upon moments of brillianc, this goal and that goal, or this 3 or 4 game run of form last year or the other year. After all, Cole is a good player after all, and will obviously have done some very good things.

Someone like Scholes, for instance, is an exceptional player, averagely 8 out of 10, over the space of a few years we can say. Rio and Ronaldo are similar. For me, Rooney is just below that three i'd say, although he has his moments, he doesn't average out to be as good as them i don't reckon. Half of the things that get a crowd or commentary reaction these days are a 40 yard chase to reclaim the ball, a comitted tackle, which is obviously fine, but that is getting mentioned a lot more than a good pass, shot etc. Those areas are suffering.

Bit long-winded, but to summarise, i'd say Rooney is a very good player, but just below say Rio and Ronaldo, but the expectations are the same which is why he never seems to be 'at his best' except for the odd game or the odd run of games in which he plays very well. Again, like other good players, they too have their games and spells where they play better than everyone else.

Are you back?

We vastly disagree on Rooney so I am not going into detail on that but my post in the ratings thread was about someone giving him 2 out of 10 when he was one of our better players on the day, they say his passing is off and I pointed out 5 or 6 times when he played key passes. Just out of interest do you think a 22 year old Rio or Scholsey were better than Wanye at the same age? Seen as you can project forward in time so well. Probably like the Godfather of anderson who shares your unnatural love for one of our players above all others.

Eto'odinho · 13th March 2008, 07:44

He's becoming more Smithy than Rooney v2005/06

Dippersripper · 13th March 2008, 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eto'odinho

He's becoming more Smithy than Rooney v2005/06

Eto'odinho · 13th March 2008, 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dippersripper

You can duck and hide all you want BUT it is his commitment, workrate and passion winning him praise nowadays as opposed to all three plus technique, skill, spatial awareness, killer instinct and other attacking attributes.

Make no mistake, this is in no way taking anything away from Rooney. He is a class act BUT sadly he hasn't displayed enough of it in the final third this season.

Instant Karma · 13th March 2008, 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by CantonaVeron

Are you back?

We vastly disagree on Rooney so I am not going into detail on that but my post in the ratings thread was about someone giving him 2 out of 10 when he was one of our better players on the day, they say his passing is off and I pointed out 5 or 6 times when he played key passes. Just out of interest do you think a 22 year old Rio or Scholsey were better than Wanye at the same age? Seen as you can project forward in time so well.

Firstly, 2 out of 10 is harsh.

Even Dirk Kuyt ran around and made a couple of key passes to Torres at Milan. Not comparing Rooney with him but key passes is just clutching at straws.

How was he one of our better performers when he missed a great chance, put in a crazy challenge that most neutrals felt was a red card and was largely responsible for conceding a goal?

The age argument is crap. At a younger age, Fowler was a top class striker compared to say Ruud. He was voted PFA young player of the year twice in a row as well. Being at the right club and especially under the tutelage of SAF, Rooney's talent will be developed far better but its high time some of you realize that not every boy wonder goes on to be the worlds best.

CnutOfAllCnuts · 13th March 2008, 08:15

Brilliant player who will become one of United's all-time greats.

Dippersripper · 13th March 2008, 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

Firstly, 2 out of 10 is harsh.

Even Dirk Kuyt ran around and made a couple of key passes to Torres at Milan. Not comparing Rooney with him but key passes is just clutching at straws.

How was he one of our better performers when he missed a great chance, put in a crazy challenge that most neutrals felt was a red card and was largely responsible for conceding a goal?

The age argument is crap. At a younger age, Fowler was a top class striker compared to say Ruud. He was voted PFA young player of the year twice in a row as well. Being at the right club and especially under the tutelage of SAF, Rooney's talent will be developed far better but its high time some of you realize that not every boy wonder goes on to be the worlds best.

You always try to find a reason to prove Rooney is shit. If Ronaldo's finishinf is poor and he made some key passes that lead to a great attacking move or a goal, you'd say the exact opposite of what you said above.

Dippersripper · 13th March 2008, 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eto'odinho

You can duck and hide all you want BUT it is his commitment, workrate and passion winning him praise nowadays as opposed to all three plus technique, skill, spatial awareness, killer instinct and other attacking attributes.

Make no mistake, this is in no way taking anything away from Rooney. He is a class act BUT sadly he hasn't displayed enough of it in the final third this season.

Look, Smith was never as good as Rooney is. Rooney's finishing has been poor this season, but his overall game has been as good as Ronaldo's or Tevez's. Before IK makes the Kuyt comparision of running around like a headless chicken, I'd like to make sure that I'm not talking about his passion or commitment. Rooney is contributing a lot to our build-up play and he had decent number of assists too. He scored 13 goals this season despite his poor finishing and played out of position.

Instant Karma · 13th March 2008, 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dippersripper

You always try to find a reason to prove Rooney is shit. If Ronaldo's finishinf is poor and he made some key passes that lead to a great attacking move or a goal, you'd say the exact opposite of what you said above.

Ronaldo's finishing isnt great either but he is a winger. Rooney is our main striker and his finishing is below par for the main striker at a top club.

The Ronaldo vs Rooney comparisons are tedious. Even if Ronaldo scores only 13 goals a season, that will be better than any other winger in the league. Even if Rooney scores 25, he wont be the top striker. Compare Ronaldo with any other winger and even in his bad season he is generally the best. Most of you on here slated Ronaldo's inconsistency/finishing/end product in 2005-06 but he scored 12 goals and was in the PFA team of the year. Rooney has similar number of goals so far and has been generally poor for a striker but when people question his performance, you go beserk.

Ronaldo vs Rooney doesnt determine who has had a better season. Compare Ronaldo with other wingers and compare Rooney's performance with what's expected from a striker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dippersripper

He scored 13 goals this season despite his poor finishing and played out of position.

Played out of position excuse is utter bollocks. No one here says he doesnt win headers or long balls because we understand he is being played out of position. He shouldnt be missing one on one or simple chances frequently whether he is the main striker or playing behind a main striker.

Pogue Mahone · 13th March 2008, 09:10

Jesus titty-fucking Christ, I always knew there were some right fucking eejits in the caf but I still can't quite believe that people are seriously comparing Wayne Rooney to Alan Smith and Dirk fucking Kuyt! Cretins the lot of ye!

Good post by K14 but I honestly think the only thing stopping Rooney progressing from very good to world class is the fact he hasn't had a decent run of games in ages. Don't forget that Joe Cole is a few years older than Rooney, I can absolutely guarantee that when Wazza is the same age as Cole is now he will be a far, far better player.

peterstorey · 13th March 2008, 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Jesus titty-fucking Christ, I always knew there were some right fucking eejits in the caf but I still can't quite believe that people are seriously comparing Wayne Rooney to Alan Smith and Dirk fucking Kuyt! Cretins the lot of ye!.

Kinnel poor old Gillespie got banned for suggesting that Rooney might run to fat, not that he was shite as a Kuyt.

Instant Karma · 13th March 2008, 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Jesus titty-fucking Christ, I always knew there were some right fucking eejits in the caf but I still can't quite believe that people are seriously comparing Wayne Rooney to Alan Smith and Dirk fucking Kuyt! Cretins the lot of ye!

If you actually read the post, you'll understand that his ability is not being compared to Kuyt. What part of 'not comparing Rooney with him' does your retarded brain not comprehend ?

Pogue Mahone · 13th March 2008, 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

If you actually read the post, you'll understand that his ability is not being compared to Kuyt. What part of 'not comparing Rooney with him' does your retarded brain not comprehend ?

Of course not, when you mentioned Dirk Kuyt, you weren't in any way drawing comparison between him and Wayne Rooney. I mean that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?

rossi · 13th March 2008, 09:57

Could someone please just check out a stat for me

1) How many games has United lost with Rooney in the team this season?
2) How many games has United lost without Rooney in the team this season?

I think this could answer what he brings to the team.

P.S. Football is a team game.

Dippersripper · 13th March 2008, 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

Ronaldo's finishing isnt great either but he is a winger. Rooney is our main striker and his finishing is below par for the main striker at a top club.

The Ronaldo vs Rooney comparisons are tedious. Even if Ronaldo scores only 13 goals a season, that will be better than any other winger in the league. Even if Rooney scores 25, he wont be the top striker. Compare Ronaldo with any other winger and even in his bad season he is generally the best. Most of you on here slated Ronaldo's inconsistency/finishing/end product in 2005-06 but he scored 12 goals and was in the PFA team of the year. Rooney has similar number of goals so far and has been generally poor for a striker but when people question his performance, you go beserk.

Ronaldo vs Rooney doesnt determine who has had a better season. Compare Ronaldo with other wingers and compare Rooney's performance with what's expected from a striker.

Played out of position excuse is utter bollocks. No one here says he doesnt win headers or long balls because we understand he is being played out of position. He shouldnt be missing one on one or simple chances frequently whether he is the main striker or playing behind a main striker.

That is bollocks. Rooney was better than Ronaldo during 05-05 season and you everybody agrees with that except you.

Dippersripper · 13th March 2008, 10:01

And Rooney was the best second striker in the league that season. If you don't understand the difference between a support striker and a center forward, just fuck off.

sammsky1 · 13th March 2008, 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eto'odinho

He's becoming more Smithy than Rooney v2005/06

Have you just said what I think you have? If so, you seriously need to invest in some knowledge of football mate.

GusHiddink · 13th March 2008, 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rowem

Aye, yeah, this was what many people feared at the start of the season.

Are you of the opinion that this season has validated those concerns, or that this is just a "knee-jerk" reaction? Just wondering cos I generally respect your opinion, for some reason.

Thats a first i assure you!! well whilst there are a couple of long term points i like to always raise (and get shot down) by in large this sort of thread is very knee jerk. The first post is pretty accurate but some of the subsequent posts are the usual murder.

Ive said before and ill say again that wayne rooney will never hit the heights that were set out for him playing any other role than second striker..the guy was born for that position. He's far too good to "fail" in other positions but it opens up this sort of thread.

some highlights from the 1st post:

Quote:

Fergie has insisted that Rooney is well fitted to playing up front, as apposed to his seemingly more natural position as a withdrawn striker. Granted, playing Rooney in such a position would possibly blunt his creative abilities but surely this is outweighed by an increased goals output. Wrong. 13 goals this season is a measly return from a player with such gifts. So lets get this straight. We are putting Rooney in a creative straight-jacket; preventing him from dropping deep to get on the ball and dictate games with his vision and execution. But we are not even being compensated with goals. This is not Rooney's fault of course, as he is always a willing runner and influential team member nonetheless.

You seem to forget that pre injury rooney was flying and on course for his highest goal tally. Dont get me wrong, i totally agree with this but the point im keen to make is even if his goal tally is higher, which it undoutbedly will be if he is played as a striker, the team will still lose out overall.

Quote:

Another disturbing trend has been Rooney's increasingly lackadaisical touch and general technique. I think it is a shame that a player we heralded as the best thing since Gazza a few years back is now more notable for his workrate than his God-given gifts. But like anything in life, you need to practice. Put simply, Wayne is not being given as much opportunity to practice these skills as he is playing in a position that constricts his game. If he is rarely driving from deep and executing passes to inch-perfect perfection, and if he sparsely gets the opportunity to break the net from 30 yards then it is no surprise that these skills are regressing. Worryingly though, other attributes, such as his finishing do not seem to be making up for the short fall.

Hmmm a touch over stating the matter in my opinion when you talk about his touch etc, thats just him blowing hot and cold. some days he walks on a pitch and he's unplayable. Thats just his natural talent. And when he does he'll make that sort of comment look silly.

There's no doubt for me he should be playing as a second striker and as such becoming a master of the postion. Our use of him since signing from everton has been very strange in many respects but you have to bow to fergie's superior knowledge. What his thought process was in playing him as a wide man on the left of all places ill never know. But hey i thought maybe this is all part of his development. He's without doubt a different animal to the one we signed...and i miss his rampaging runs which seem to have decreased considerably. And what of his shooting from distance...that seems to have diminished. 2 of his strongest assets when we signed him. Another thing every one used to talk about, fergie included, was his ability to find space between the lines of opposition defence and mid..another classic sign he's a second striker. That has obviously been missed with him playing anywhere but.

Finally the key point that many miss when arguing against the "rooney can only play one position brigade" is that by playing second striker you are offering him the freedom of the city. He can pick and choose when to run in behind or drop off...go wide or go left, dribble or pass. This decision making process is vastly limited in other positions...left wing is pretty obvious but even as the focal point of the attack he'll find himself forced to stay up when he's inclined to drop off just to keep the shape of the side.

Dippersripper · 13th March 2008, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by GusHiddink

Thats a first i assure you!! well whilst there are a couple of long term points i like to always raise (and get shot down) by in large this sort of thread is very knee jerk. The first post is pretty accurate but some of the subsequent posts are the usual murder.

Ive said before and ill say again that wayne rooney will never hit the heights that were set out for him playing any other role than second striker..the guy was born for that position. He's far too good to "fail" in other positions but it opens up this sort of thread.

some highlights from the 1st post:

You seem to forget that pre injury rooney was flying and on course for his highest goal tally. Dont get me wrong, i totally agree with this but the point im keen to make is even if his goal tally is higher, which it undoutbedly will be if he is played as a striker, the team will still lose out overall.

Hmmm a touch over stating the matter in my opinion when you talk about his touch etc, thats just him blowing hot and cold. some days he walks on a pitch and he's unplayable. Thats just his natural talent. And when he does he'll make that sort of comment look silly.

There's no doubt for me he should be playing as a second striker and as such becoming a master of the postion. Our use of him since signing from everton has been very strange in many respects but you have to bow to fergie's superior knowledge. What his thought process was in playing him as a wide man on the left of all places ill never know. But hey i thought maybe this is all part of his development. He's without doubt a different animal to the one we signed...and i miss his rampaging runs which seem to have decreased considerably. And what of his shooting from distance...that seems to have diminished. 2 of his strongest assets when we signed him. Another thing every one used to talk about, fergie included, was his ability to find space between the lines of opposition defence and mid..another classic sign he's a second striker. That has obviously been missed with him playing anywhere but.

Finally the key point that many miss when arguing against the "rooney can only play one position brigade" is that by playing second striker you are offering him the freedom of the city. He can pick and choose when to run in behind or drop off...go wide or go left, dribble or pass. This decision making process is vastly limited in other positions...left wing is pretty obvious but even as the focal point of the attack he'll find himself forced to stay up when he's inclined to drop off just to keep the shape of the side.

Good post

Pogue Mahone · 13th March 2008, 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by GusHiddink

Finally the key point that many miss when arguing against the "rooney can only play one position brigade" is that by playing second striker you are offering him the freedom of the city. He can pick and choose when to run in behind or drop off...go wide or go left, dribble or pass. This decision making process is vastly limited in other positions...left wing is pretty obvious but even as the focal point of the attack he'll find himself forced to stay up when he's inclined to drop off just to keep the shape of the side.

A reasonable post but I'd just like to take issue with this last paragraph. Do you really think, based on the games you've watched this season, that Rooney isn't being allowed the freedom to roam? Cause I get the distinct impression that he's got more freedom than ever (especially when Tevez is on the pitch)

GusHiddink · 13th March 2008, 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

A reasonable post but I'd just like to take issue with this last paragraph. Do you really think, based on the games you've watched this season, that Rooney isn't being allowed the freedom to roam? Cause I get the distinct impression that he's got more freedom than ever (especially when Tevez is on the pitch)

The only time he's had more freedom was a period when him and saha were playing as an orthodox ( as in man u orthodox with one dropping deeper than the other) strike pair and we played as close to 442 as we have in years.

I agree he's had freedom this season but that goes back to our use of him since we signed him...left wing, rarely right wing, striker, and only rarely as a second striker.

Should add that with tevez he's asked to act as the lead striker so there are undoubtedly times where he's just waiting on the last man, ala M owen, waiting for service....which is just a total waste...especially if the team are not playing well that day.

kanchelskis14 · 13th March 2008, 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dippersripper

And Rooney was the best second striker in the league that season. If you don't understand the difference between a support striker and a center forward, just fuck off.

Pretty sure Drogba and McCarthy were better. But Rooney ended the season quite well.

Pogue Mahone · 13th March 2008, 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanchelskis14

Pretty sure Drogba and McCarthy were better. But Rooney ended the season quite well.

He did specify "second striker", to be fair.

13th March 2008, 03:47	#81 (permalink)
fatboy Reserve Team Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 2,127	Despite what people say about Tevez and Rooney being a good partnership, I actually think that he's still better off playing as a withdrawn striker. Thing is, Rooney has seldom had a good run playing in his natural position. Yes he's a terrific footballer, he'd play decently on the wings, leading the line upfront, and even in midfield. But "decent" is not what you pay 20+mil for. Saha would probably be the ideal partner, but unfortunately, he's hardly ever available. Stick Rooney in the withdrawn role with a (frequently fit) striker who can lead the line, and you'll see what he's really all about. In some ways, Tevez (for playing in Rooney's best position) and Saha (for being frequently unfit) are hindering Rooney from maximising his potential. He is still a terrific terrific player.

13th March 2008, 07:44	#84 (permalink)
Eto'odinho Retard magnet Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Chief Fiwagboola Posts: 8,625	He's becoming more Smithy than Rooney v2005/06

13th March 2008, 08:15	#88 (permalink)
CnutOfAllCnuts Bald Boring Cnut Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 18,023	Brilliant player who will become one of United's all-time greats.

13th March 2008, 09:10	#92 (permalink)
Pogue Mahone Dr Death wasting tax payers money on the Caf all day Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: "As relaxed and natural on the park as a dog chasing a piece of silver paper in the wind" Posts: 10,056	Jesus titty-fucking Christ, I always knew there were some right fucking eejits in the caf but I still can't quite believe that people are seriously comparing Wayne Rooney to Alan Smith and Dirk fucking Kuyt! Cretins the lot of ye! Good post by K14 but I honestly think the only thing stopping Rooney progressing from very good to world class is the fact he hasn't had a decent run of games in ages. Don't forget that Joe Cole is a few years older than Rooney, I can absolutely guarantee that when Wazza is the same age as Cole is now he will be a far, far better player.

13th March 2008, 09:57	#96 (permalink)
rossi On Trial Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 29	Could someone please just check out a stat for me 1) How many games has United lost with Rooney in the team this season? 2) How many games has United lost without Rooney in the team this season? I think this could answer what he brings to the team. P.S. Football is a team game.

13th March 2008, 10:01	#98 (permalink)
Dippersripper Fancies Footballers - Gaylord Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: I don't need nobody Posts: 5,600	And Rooney was the best second striker in the league that season. If you don't understand the difference between a support striker and a center forward, just fuck off.