Wayne Rooney

kanchelskis14 · 13th March 2008, 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

I'm a bit confused here. Are you talking about this season? Because this season he's already broken a metarsal and badly sprained his ankle (playing fecking head tennis). On each of these occasions he was out for at least a month (I think the MT fracture kept him out a good bit longer)

Last season's "poor form" is a bit more difficult to explain. Playing the World Cup half-fit didn't help and the early suspension just compunded this. But it's still relative. Despite this "problem" he ended up racking up 23 goals and more assists than any other player at the club.

This season he already has more assists in the league than anyone else (can't find the equivalent stats for all competitions) and a decent amount of goals. All this despite missing large chunks of the season.

The thing about Rooney, IMO, is that when'e not firing on all cylinders he can sometimes look like he's having an absolute shocker. He relies so much on having a perfect first-touch and playing without thinking that if it's not working for him he can look all over the place. Despite this, he (usually) influences every game he plays in and has the uncanny ability to make things happen for the team, just by being on the pitch, even when he's not playing well. And that, IMO, is what makes him such a special player.

I still think too much is expected from him though, relative to the level he's currently at. I'm not sure he's yet a 'special player' as you put it, but again, that would depend on definitions. I think Berbatov or Scholes are special players, i think Anelka's a very good player, for instance. Like Rooney. If his odd 4 or 5 game run was to be taken as his general level of performance, then i'd say yes, he's special, but for now, he's 'good' in my books. Basically, with consistency, he can get there.

Pogue Mahone · 13th March 2008, 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanchelskis14

I still think too much is expected from him though, relative to the level he's currently at. I'm not sure he's yet a 'special player' as you put it, but again, that would depend on definitions. I think Berbatov or Scholes are special players, i think Anelka's a very good player, for instance. Like Rooney. If his odd 4 or 5 game run was to be taken as his general level of performance, then i'd say yes, he's special, but for now, he's 'good' in my books. Basically, with consistency, he can get there.

I would probably agree with that. I guess it's his age which makes him special in my books. Don't forget you're comparing him with players at their peak, like Berbatov and Anelka. I reckon Rooney is already far better now than either of them were at the same age.

But you're right. HIs biggest problem is a lack of consistency. Which brings me right back to his age again

Eto'odinho · 13th March 2008, 14:34

I don't subscribe to the injuries have hampered his performances this season theory. Sure he was out of action BUT he wasn't out for a prolonged periods. He has had more than 3 months of first team action since his last notable injury and if this isn't enough time for any world class player to regain his form then what is.

He could be carrying a niggling injury or knock (god forbid) BUT what Rooney is suffering right now seems to be beyond the physical side of matters. Mentally he appears to be off compared to yesteryears.

This is all the more painful considering how effective a Rooneyv05/06 would be to the present side.

Feed Me · 13th March 2008, 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eto'odinho

I don't subscribe to the injuries have hampered his performances this season theory. Sure he was out of action BUT he wasn't out for a prolonged periods. He has had more than 3 months of first team action since his last notable injury and if this isn't enough time for any world class player to regain his form then what is.

He could be carrying a niggling injury or knock (god forbid) BUT what Rooney is suffering right now seems to be beyond the physical side of matters. Mentally he appears to be off compared to yesteryears.

This is all the more painful considering how effective a Rooneyv05/06 would be to the present side.

That Rooney was far better and more consistent than what we are seeing now. The boy has gone backwards in my opinion and the two big factors are a lack of confidence (borne out of playing a different position) and no longer being the teams top player. He needs to adapt.

kanchelskis14 · 13th March 2008, 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

I would probably agree with that. I guess it's his age which makes him special in my books. Don't forget you're comparing him with players at their peak, like Berbatov and Anelka. I reckon Rooney is already far better now than either of them were at the same age.

But you're right. HIs biggest problem is a lack of consistency. Which brings me right back to his age again

Agree with that. To an extent, sorry

Take Lionel Messi. Young, but so clearly special, he's obviously gone way beyond being 'good' or 'very good' even. Somebody like, dunno, David Silva at Valencia for instance, just isn't in the same class, while being a top talent too.

Dunno, that may not have actually made sense. In fairness, i thought Rooney would go on to be truly special when he first came through, he may yet do so.

crappycraperson · 13th March 2008, 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eto'odinho

I don't subscribe to the injuries have hampered his performances this season theory. Sure he was out of action BUT he wasn't out for a prolonged periods. He has had more than 3 months of first team action since his last notable injury and if this isn't enough time for any world class player to regain his form then what is.

He could be carrying a niggling injury or knock (god forbid) BUT what Rooney is suffering right now seems to be beyond the physical side of matters. Mentally he appears to be off compared to yesteryears.

This is all the more painful considering how effective a Rooneyv05/06 would be to the present side.

I agree with that except I think injuries have a played a role.
He is still very important to our team but the fact he has not come close to replicating his form from two seasons ago is a cause for worry.

Feed Me · 13th March 2008, 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanchelskis14

Agree with that. To an extent, sorry

Take Lionel Messi. Young, but so clearly special, he's obviously gone way beyond being 'good' or 'very good' even. Somebody like, dunno, David Silva at Valencia for instance, just isn't in the same class, while being a top talent too.

Dunno, that may not have actually made sense. In fairness, i thought Rooney would go on to be truly special when he first came through, he may yet do so.

That is the point I was trying to get at.

kanchelskis14 · 13th March 2008, 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by crappycraperson

I agree with that except I think injuries have a played a role.
He is still very important to our team but the fact he has not come close to replicating his form from two seasons ago is a cause for worry.

His fitness looks fine though, so i'm not sure about the injury as such. Anderson's just a baby and spent nearly a year out with a broken leg, but i doubt you'll hear him use it as an excuse for how he plays in against Derby at the weekend. The fact is, he's back now.

Pogue Mahone · 13th March 2008, 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanchelskis14

Agree with that. To an extent, sorry

Take Lionel Messi. Young, but so clearly special, he's obviously gone way beyond being 'good' or 'very good' even. Somebody like, dunno, David Silva at Valencia for instance, just isn't in the same class, while being a top talent too.

Dunno, that may not have actually made sense. In fairness, i thought Rooney would go on to be truly special when he first came through, he may yet do so.

And this is the point I was trying to get at.

Except I would use the word "will" instead of "may" (assuming I could get away with the mangled syntax, that is

)

jasonrh · 13th March 2008, 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanchelskis14

Agree with that. To an extent, sorry

Take Lionel Messi. Young, but so clearly special, he's obviously gone way beyond being 'good' or 'very good' even. Somebody like, dunno, David Silva at Valencia for instance, just isn't in the same class, while being a top talent too.

Dunno, that may not have actually made sense. In fairness, i thought Rooney would go on to be truly special when he first came through, he may yet do so.

He will.

Until last year, Ronaldo wasn't really a "special" player using the criterion of performing at top level with consistency.

kanchelskis14 · 13th March 2008, 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

And this is the point I was trying to get at.

Except I would use the word "will" instead of "may" (assuming I could get away with the mangled syntax, that is

)

Yea, i'll go along with that too.

Feed Me · 13th March 2008, 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonrh

He will.

Until last year, Ronaldo wasn't really a "special" player using the criterion of performing at top level with consistency.

The difference is that Rooney was closer to being at that level in 05/06 than he is now. There has been a clear regression.

GusHiddink · 13th March 2008, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

Everyone agrees that -

1) Rooney is much better as a second striker than a main striker
2) Rooney is much better as a second striker than Tevez
3) Some of Rooney's talents are wasted by playing him as a main striker.

But none of this has anything to do with his poor finishing, lack of confidence in one on one situations and wastefulness in front of goal. Why provide irrelevant excuses to cover up an area of his game that needs vast improvement ?

Dont think i did that at any stage.

And its not a lack of confidence in one on one situations its poor finishing. people with lack of confidence just generally hit the thing anywhere on target will do. rooney often trys to dink it over the on rushing keeper as he goes to ground or generally over elaborate. thats just a weakness in his game, when he has time to think he's a much poorer finisher...except when his confidence is sky high like it was for his 1st euros where it just didnt look like he could miss.

But the point is he aint a striker. Being played there means he gets more chances and the wastefulness becomes more obvious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IhabX7

Seconded.

see above

kanchelskis14 · 13th March 2008, 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonrh

He will.

Until last year, Ronaldo wasn't really a "special" player using the criterion of performing at top level with consistency.

True. Ronaldo was always a special 'talent' though, to get technical, as is Rooney.

There are different ways of looking at it i guess. There is judging a player by consistent performances at the top level, although others may define special just based on extremely superior technical ability levels i guess. I'm not sure just yet whether Rooney ranks as special in either box.

I'm just not sure to be honest. What i do know is Rooney two years ago looked special, now he just looks good.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 13th March 2008, 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanchelskis14

Thanks Chief.

You're welcome

pillory · 13th March 2008, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

On each of these occasions he was out for at least a month (I think the MT fracture kept him out a good bit longer)

The MT was a month and a week, the head tennis thing only almost a month.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

can't find the equivalent stats for all competitions

Nani and Giggs have more assists in all comps.

Pogue Mahone · 13th March 2008, 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feed Me

The difference is that Rooney was closer to being at that level in 05/06 than he is now. There has been a clear regression.

ORLY?

Here are some career stats, App/Goals/Assists

Everton F.C.
2002–03 37 8 4
2003–04 40 9 3
Manchester United
2004–05 43 17 5
2005–06 48 19 14
2006–07 55 23 16
2007–08 30 13 9

I don't see any evidence of a clear regression. The lack of games this season is the most noticable quirk. Otherwise he seems to be coming along very nicely.

Pogue Mahone · 13th March 2008, 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by pillory

Nani and Giggs have more assists in all comps.

Do they? Fair enough. But then again, Rooney doesn't take corners.

Feed Me · 13th March 2008, 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

ORLY?

Here are some career stats, App/Goals/Assists

Everton F.C.
2002–03 37 8 4
2003–04 40 9 3
Manchester United
2004–05 43 17 5
2005–06 48 19 14
2006–07 55 23 16
2007–08 30 13 9

I don't see any evidence of a clear regression. The lack of games this season is the most noticable quirk. Otherwise he seems to be coming along very nicely.

I could argue that Rooney's 2006-7 figures only surpassed those of his 2005-6 season because he played 7 extra games...

Facts can disguise a lot - the fact is, Rooney looked far more accomplished during that 05-6 season than he has done since.

Also, I do wonder about the relevancy of quoting a players "assists", generally when talking about any player.

pillory · 13th March 2008, 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feed Me

Also, I do wonder about the relevancy of quoting a players "assists", generally when talking about any player.

Why?

Moz · 13th March 2008, 15:19

Here's a link to some more stats if anyone is interested:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players...=21046&cc=5739

I don't know whether or not they're reliable or what exactly to make of them but I'm sure lots of you have a better knowledge of football and statistics than I, so maybe you can enlighten me. Is Rooney currently bringing enough to the team in terms of goals and assists? How does this compare to our other attacking players?

Based on observation alone, I think Rooney has been too inconsistent in terms of the number of goals he has scored this season to justify his inclusion in almost every starting XI. He does not seem to be taking enough shots at goal and fails to get a lot of them on target when he does, probably as result of low confidence.

Feed Me · 13th March 2008, 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by pillory

Why?

Where did the term assist come from? It has not been in the football lexicon for much longer than a decade, of that much I am sure.

My main qualm with an assist is that it is not reflective of a players true creative worth to the team. Using United as a case in point - Anderson could wrestle possession back from Gerrard, deep in his own half. He could jink past Mascherano and Alonso and fire a 30 yard diagonal ball to Ronaldo who is in a peach of a position. Ronaldo could then simply tap the ball 5 yards square to Rooney for a tap in. Ronaldo gets the assist. The history books say that Ronaldo "made" or "created" the goal. Prior to this age of "assists" a player who played an integral part in "creating" a goal was given the credit. Football fans are now fed stats on tap that are unreflective of the game. But this is a whole other topic.

Pogue Mahone · 13th March 2008, 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feed Me

I could argue that Rooney's 2006-7 figures only surpassed those of his 2005-6 season because he played 7 extra games...

Facts can disguise a lot - the fact is, Rooney looked far more accomplished during that 05-6 season than he has done since.

Also, I do wonder about the relevancy of quoting a players "assists", generally when talking about any player.

You could. But you'd be wrong. Only just, to be fair.

The thing is, I don't think anyone would argue with you that he had a poor season in 06/07. But the fact that he (slightly) improved his tally from the previous season (when he was on fire) shows that he is a player who is getting more and more effective.

At the end of the day, it's far too early to start talking about his career as though he's in some kind of crisis, or is regressing as a footballer. We've already seen him put in some phenomenal displays this season, despite missing out on a lot of football. The time to look back and assess his season will be in May, after he's finally had a decent run of games. I'm quietly confident that, by then, we'll be looking back on a player who's taken another step towards becoming one of the best footballers in the world.

pillory · 13th March 2008, 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Do they? Fair enough. But then again, Rooney doesn't take corners.

By my own reckoning, yes. I do practice some shady counting, like giving an assists to the player who is fouled for a penalty or the player whose parried shot is tucked away by someone else, but I'm quite sure the order will be Nani > Giggs > Rooney whichever way you count.

Feed Me · 13th March 2008, 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

You could. But you'd be wrong. Only just, to be fair.

The thing is, I don't think anyone would argue with you that he had a poor season in 06/07. But the fact that he (slightly) improved his tally from the previous season (when he was on fire) shows that he is a player who is getting more and more effective.

At the end of the day, it's far too early to start talking about his career as though he's in some kind of crisis, or is regressing as a footballer. We've already seen him put in some phenomenal displays this season, despite missing out on a lot of football. The time to look back and assess his season will be in May, after he's finally had a decent run of games. I'm quietly confident that, by then, we'll be looking back on a player who's taken another step towards becoming one of the best footballers in the world.

I fucking hope so.

13th March 2008, 14:34	#163 (permalink)
Eto'odinho Retard magnet Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cirith Ungol Posts: 8,820	I don't subscribe to the injuries have hampered his performances this season theory. Sure he was out of action BUT he wasn't out for a prolonged periods. He has had more than 3 months of first team action since his last notable injury and if this isn't enough time for any world class player to regain his form then what is. He could be carrying a niggling injury or knock (god forbid) BUT what Rooney is suffering right now seems to be beyond the physical side of matters. Mentally he appears to be off compared to yesteryears. This is all the more painful considering how effective a Rooneyv05/06 would be to the present side.

13th March 2008, 15:19	#181 (permalink)
Moz Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lancashire Posts: 709	Here's a link to some more stats if anyone is interested: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players...=21046&cc=5739 I don't know whether or not they're reliable or what exactly to make of them but I'm sure lots of you have a better knowledge of football and statistics than I, so maybe you can enlighten me. Is Rooney currently bringing enough to the team in terms of goals and assists? How does this compare to our other attacking players? Based on observation alone, I think Rooney has been too inconsistent in terms of the number of goals he has scored this season to justify his inclusion in almost every starting XI. He does not seem to be taking enough shots at goal and fails to get a lot of them on target when he does, probably as result of low confidence.