Wayne Rooney

Sam#1 · 26th March 2008, 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Here is Rooney's "chance conversion" % from this season's Champion's League campaign (I can't find the equivalent for the PL):

Chance conversion 18%

http://www.setanta.com/en/Sport/News...ocale/Man-Utd/

And here are Berbatov's chance conversion % from the Premier League, over the whole of last season, when many rated him as the most effective striker in the country:

Chance Conversion 15%

http://sports.setanta.com/en/Sport/N...ritain-locale/

Do these really support an argument that Rooney's finishing is "shite" or that he will "never" be a great finisher?

Good find Pogue.

Berbatov is class, no doubt, but he is way overrated on this forum. Rooney is also class, no doubt, but he is underrated on this forum.

jojojo · 26th March 2008, 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bape

I'm agreeing with Feed Me in this argument about Rooney here. Yes, we all know he contributes to more than just goals etc, but how can anyone not see or deny that Rooney is currently missing chances as a CF that he really shouldnt be missing, especially at a club the size of ours?

Hmmm, OK. I guess it's that what "a club the size of ours" business that bothers me because it sounds like people have a plan in mind for what makes a good United team. Want to put some names to the strikers we've had in the past 20 years that out-struck Rooney's scoring rate of around 20 per season?

Yorke had one season where he hit 29, McClair once hit 31 - but were 20 or so strikers otherwise (at their best). Cole hovered around the 20 mark, so did Cantona, so did Hughes.

There's RvN of course - but given our overall trophy haul in the period that's not really a convincing argument that United need one.

I think Rooney's scoring rate is only an issue on her because people want/expect him to outscore Ronaldo. If we redefine Roo as a creator and Ron as a striker would that make people happier?

Bape · 26th March 2008, 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam#1

Good find Pogue.

Berbatov is class, no doubt, but he is way overrated on this forum. Rooney is also class, no doubt, but he is underrated on this forum.

Rooney is anything but underrated on this forum, and understandably so considering the caf is a Manchester united forum.
If you look around general football forums, you'll realise how underrated Rooney is compared to here, particularly to fans of clubs outside the EPL...when we came up against Lyon in the CL, Lyon fans were saying how they do not fear Rooney, but Tevez and Ronaldo are the ones that are worried about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jojojo

Hmmm, OK. I guess it's that what "a club the size of ours" business that bothers me because it sounds like people have a plan in mind for what makes a good United team. Want to put some names to the strikers we've had in the past 20 years that out-struck Rooney's scoring rate of around 20 per season?

Yorke had one season where he hit 29, McClair once hit 31 - but were 20 or so strikers otherwise (at their best). Cole hovered around the 20 mark, so did Cantona, so did Hughes.

There's RvN of course - but given our overall trophy haul in the period that's not really a convincing argument that United need one.

I think Rooney's scoring rate is only an issue on her because people want/expect him to outscore Ronaldo. If we redefine Roo as a creator and Ron as a striker would that make people happier?

First things first, Rooney is a withdrawn striker..he was bought as one and will always be more natural as one. We are however playing him as a CF and for that reason, we should expect him to be compared to the other the best CF's the club has had in the past for goal ratio argument. He has scored well for the past few seasons, last season he really picked up his pace near the end of the season and caught us with his lack of goals at the start, but his goal ratio this season has been rather poor to say the least, I'm not denying his goal scoring ratio has been great for us in past seasons, but it just hasnt been this season. I'm hoping Rooney manages to do do what he did last season and go on one of his scoring forms till the end of season.

I don't agree with your point about it only being an issue because we expect him to outscore Ronaldo. Ronaldo is the best player in the world right now, leading goal scorer and we can't just 'expect' Rooney to outscore him by any means. What we should be expecting though is Rooney scoring more frequently than he has done this season, there or there abouts of the amount of goals he is capable of.

Sam#1 · 26th March 2008, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bape

Rooney is anything but underrated on this forum, and understandably so considering the caf is a Manchester united forum.
If you look around general football forums, you'll realise how underrated Rooney is compared to here, particularly to fans of clubs outside the EPL...when we came up against Lyon in the CL, Lyon fans were saying how they do not fear Rooney, but Tevez and Ronaldo are the ones that are worried about.

There are a few that underrated him. I won't name names. You know who they are.

Instant Karma · 26th March 2008, 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Here is Rooney's "chance conversion" % from this season's Champion's League campaign (I can't find the equivalent for the PL):

Chance conversion 18%

http://www.setanta.com/en/Sport/News...ocale/Man-Utd/

And here are Berbatov's chance conversion % from the Premier League, over the whole of last season, when many rated him as the most effective striker in the country:

Chance Conversion 15%

http://sports.setanta.com/en/Sport/N...ritain-locale/

Do these really support an argument that Rooney's finishing is "shite" or that he will "never" be a great finisher?

That doesn't account for the quality of the chances created for Rooney (numerous one on one's) by our team versus the half chances that Jenas/Lennon create for Berbatov. Its not about the total number of chances wasted by Rooney but the number of clear chances wasted that a top finisher would put away.

From the telegraph -

Rooney and Berbatov have 65 and 69 shots on goal this season for 8 and 13 goals in the Premiership. But the quality of chances created by our team for Rooney is probably far better.

Pogue Mahone · 26th March 2008, 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

That doesn't account for the quality of the chances created for Rooney (numerous one on one's) by our team versus the half chances that Jenas/Lennon create for Berbatov. Its not about the total number of chances wasted by Rooney but the number of clear chances wasted that a top finisher would put away.

From the telegraph -

Rooney and Berbatov have 65 and 69 shots on goal this season for 8 and 13 goals in the Premiership. But the quality of chances created by our team for Rooney is probably far better.

It's about the "quality of the chances" now, is it? Cause Berbatov never missed clear chances on goal and I must have imagined that missed opportunity at the end of the Chelsea game. Funny the way caftards always find a way to discredit stats that go against their personal opinion but take them as gospel when they support their point of view.

At the end of the day, Rooney's finishing hasn't been as good as it can be this season, that's fairly obvious. But this comparison with Berbatov shows that he's a long way short of being "shite" and I guarantee he'll start scoring for fun again in the very near future.

CnutOfAllCnuts · 26th March 2008, 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

That doesn't account for the quality of the chances created for Rooney (numerous one on one's) by our team

Or the chances Rooney create or get because of his quality....

Pogue Mahone · 26th March 2008, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

Rooney and Berbatov have 65 and 69 shots on goal this season for 8 and 13 goals in the Premiership. But the quality of chances created by our team for Rooney is probably far better.

You can't estimate chance conversion from these stats, by the way, cause that would ignore attempts that go wide.

RedDevilCanuck · 26th March 2008, 15:04

Everyone knows Rooney is fuckin WORLD CLASS. However his finishing this year has been shit and he has NEVER been a prolific finisher. I love our squad but we need a real striker. Rooney has shows this season that he can pass and create with the best of him. I honestly feel that he is one of the best playermakers on earth. Why would you play a hard nose deep lying player up front when it is blantanly obvious that Rooney is either support striker or attacking midfielder like Bergkamp. Rooney's finish=not great, Rooney's playmaking=WORLD CLASS solution, get a real striker and let boy play where he wants to.

CnutOfAllCnuts · 26th March 2008, 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDevilCanuck

get a real striker and let boy play where he wants to.

Does anyone know where he wants to play?

He said himself that he really enjoys playing the current role.

crappycraperson · 26th March 2008, 15:10

Rooney's finishing is a worry.
Take FA cup final for example. He was probably our best player that day. Only one who really caused any problems for their defense. Went on a superb solo run and had a good one on one chance from a Scholes pass. But he ended up missing both opportunities. If he scores either, it turns a good display into brilliant and wins the FA cup for us. In open games him missing chances may not hurt us but in one-off tight encounters they do.

Instant Karma · 26th March 2008, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

It's about the "quality of the chances" now, is it? Cause Berbatov never missed clear chances on goal and I must have imagined that missed opportunity at the end of the Chelsea game. Funny the way caftards always find a way to discredit stats that go against their personal opinion but take them as gospel when they support their point of view.

Its funnier that caftards who claim stats to be meaningless, try to misrepresent stats to prove their case when they have no clear arguments.

Did anyone claim that Hargreaves is a 'better passer' than Carrick because he has a better pass completion percentage? Everyone who actually watches the game would know better. They'd also know that Berbatov is a superior finisher. But when Rooney is involved, lets try to cover up every weakness of his by discounting factors like 'quality of chance'

If Rooney is as good/better than Berbatov at finishing, then Hargreaves is as good/better than Carrick at passing

Bape · 26th March 2008, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by CnutOfAllCnuts

Does anyone know where he wants to play?

He said himself that he really enjoys playing the current role.

Dosent matter where he wants to play, we should just play him where he's most effective. For arguments sake though, he looks the most comfortable when he can do what he likes on the pitch with no restrictions what so ever. I'm happy that our interchanging fluidity system works well though, and Rooney is not exactly isolated up top as much as he could be as a CF.

CnutOfAllCnuts · 26th March 2008, 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

Its funnier that caftards who claim stats to be meaningless, try to misrepresent stats to prove their case when they have no clear arguments.

Did anyone claim that Hargreaves is a 'better passer' than Carrick because he has a better pass completion percentage? Everyone who actually watches the game would know better. They'd also know that Berbatov is a superior finisher. But when Rooney is involved, lets try to cover up every weakness of his by discounting factors like 'quality of chance'

What I find even funnier is United fans that are more focused on what our players are not good at than focusing on what our players are good at...

Sam#1 · 26th March 2008, 15:17

Why are we presuming that Rooney's have been better chances than Berbatov's ?

Don't forget that Spurs are the highest scoring English team in all competitions this season, they must create quite a few good chances wouldn't you think ?

Pogue Mahone · 26th March 2008, 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

Its funnier that caftards who claim stats to be meaningless, try to misrepresent stats to prove their case when they have no clear arguments.

Did anyone claim that Hargreaves is a 'better passer' than Carrick because he has a better pass completion percentage? Everyone who actually watches the game would know better. They'd also know that Berbatov is a superior finisher. But when Rooney is involved, lets try to cover up every weakness of his by discounting factors like 'quality of chance'

If Rooney is as good/better than Berbatov at finishing, then Hargreaves is as good/better than Carrick at passing

What the fuck are you going on about now? There's a hundred page long thread on Carrick and Hargreaves if you want to talk about them. This thread is about Wayne Rooney.

You say Berbatov is a superior finisher to Rooney. His stats from last season (when he was on fire) don't back you up. They are both strikers, hence chance conversion is a reasonable way to compare their finishing. What the fuck does the pass completion rate of two central midfielders have to do with anything?

Instant Karma · 26th March 2008, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

What the fuck are you going on about now? There's a fucking hundred page long thread on Carrick and Hargreaves if you want to talk about them. This thread is about Wayne Rooney.

You say Berbatov is a superior finisher to Rooney. His stats from last season (when he was on fire) don't back you up. They are both strikers, hence chance conversion is a reasonable way to compare their finishing. What the fuck does the pass completion rate of two central midfielders have to do with anything?

Chance conversion percentage doesn't account for quality of chance
Pass conversion percentage doesn't account for the quality of pass

To just go by chance conversion stats and say Rooney is as good at finishing as Berbatov would be the same as just looking at passing stats and claiming Hargreaves (85%) is as good at passing as Carrick (82%).

Pogue Mahone · 26th March 2008, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam#1

Why are we presuming that Rooney's have been better chances than Berbatov's ?

Don't forget that Spurs are the highest scoring English team in all competitions this season, they must create quite a few good chances wouldn't you think ?

Apparently Spurs play football in such a way that they somehow specialise in only creating "half-chances" for their strikers. Weird, eh?

Pogue Mahone · 26th March 2008, 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

Chance conversion percentage doesn't account for quality of chance
Pass conversion percentage doesn't account for the quality of pass

To just go by chance conversion stats and say Rooney is as good at finishing as Berbatov would be the same as just looking at passing stats and claiming Hargreaves (85%) is as good at passing as Carrick (82%).

Please, shut the fuck up about Hargreaves and Carrick. This is the wrong thread for that discussion. Enough already.

Total madness to try and claim that Spurs create a different type of opportunity to what we do. In fact, that's such a mentalist theory I'm, starting to wonder why I even bother to debate with you. Have you ever played football?

Sam#1 · 26th March 2008, 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Apparently Spurs play football in such a way that they somehow specialise in only creating "half-chances" for their strikers. Weird, eh?

They are revolutionizing football in a way that should be admired and respected.

Instant Karma · 26th March 2008, 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

Please, shut the fuck up about Hargreaves and Carrick. This is the wrong thread for that discussion. Enough already.

Total madness to try and claim that Spurs create a different type of opportunity to what we do. In fact, that's such a mentalist theory I'm, starting to wonder why I even bother to debate with you. Have you ever played football?

Just fuck right off you thick cunt. Anyone who is sensible and has actually played football would be able to understand that shot on goal stat does not account for the quality of chance that led to the shot.

Sam#1 · 26th March 2008, 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

Just fuck right off you thick cunt. Anyone who is sensible and has actually played football would be able to understand that shot on goal stat does not account for the quality of chance that led to the shot.

But once again, you have failed to explain why Rooney supposedly has better chances to score than Berbatov.

Let me guess, because Rooney is English, Berbatov is therefore instantly better.

CnutOfAllCnuts · 26th March 2008, 15:35

If Rooney plays like he did against Liverpool for the rest of the season, without scoring a single goal, would that not make you lot happy? Or would that disappoint you?

Pogue Mahone · 26th March 2008, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

Just fuck right off you thick cunt. Anyone who is sensible and has actually played football would be able to understand that shot on goal stat does not account for the quality of chance that led to the shot.

So you have played football? Good.

Care to explain (utilising your experience of playing the game) how over the course of the season, Berbatov consistently gets chances that are more difficult than those that fall to Rooney?

In your own time.

Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber · 26th March 2008, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam#1

But once again, you have failed to explain why Rooney supposedly has better chances to score than Berbatov.

.....

Playing at United is enough explanation.

Plechazunga · 26th March 2008, 15:39

I agree with the initial post (apart from the "it's ironic" bit, obviously)

Rooney's not a line-leading striker, and he's not cut out to be a lone striker. He sits deep, creates, scores his fair share but he's not a predator who you want most of your chances and half-chances falling to, and I doubt he ever will be.

Playing him out of position for game after game, season after season will likely fuck him up.

26th March 2008, 15:04	#289 (permalink)
RedDevilCanuck Reserve Team Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Decent mix between America and Britain. Posts: 1,412	Everyone knows Rooney is fuckin WORLD CLASS. However his finishing this year has been shit and he has NEVER been a prolific finisher. I love our squad but we need a real striker. Rooney has shows this season that he can pass and create with the best of him. I honestly feel that he is one of the best playermakers on earth. Why would you play a hard nose deep lying player up front when it is blantanly obvious that Rooney is either support striker or attacking midfielder like Bergkamp. Rooney's finish=not great, Rooney's playmaking=WORLD CLASS solution, get a real striker and let boy play where he wants to.

26th March 2008, 15:10	#291 (permalink)
crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: <Insert something funny here> Posts: 11,490	Rooney's finishing is a worry. Take FA cup final for example. He was probably our best player that day. Only one who really caused any problems for their defense. Went on a superb solo run and had a good one on one chance from a Scholes pass. But he ended up missing both opportunities. If he scores either, it turns a good display into brilliant and wins the FA cup for us. In open games him missing chances may not hurt us but in one-off tight encounters they do.

26th March 2008, 15:17	#295 (permalink)
Sam#1 First Team Regular Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: 808s and Heartbreaks Posts: 14,096	Why are we presuming that Rooney's have been better chances than Berbatov's ? Don't forget that Spurs are the highest scoring English team in all competitions this season, they must create quite a few good chances wouldn't you think ?

26th March 2008, 15:35	#303 (permalink)
CnutOfAllCnuts Bald Boring Cnut Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 21,111	If Rooney plays like he did against Liverpool for the rest of the season, without scoring a single goal, would that not make you lot happy? Or would that disappoint you?

26th March 2008, 15:39	#306 (permalink)
Plechazunga Phones, soup, paint and chairs are troubling. Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the principality is chief executive of David evroshampiona Gil. Posts: 49,810	I agree with the initial post (apart from the "it's ironic" bit, obviously) Rooney's not a line-leading striker, and he's not cut out to be a lone striker. He sits deep, creates, scores his fair share but he's not a predator who you want most of your chances and half-chances falling to, and I doubt he ever will be. Playing him out of position for game after game, season after season will likely fuck him up.

26th March 2008, 15:41	#307 (permalink)
Pogue Mahone Dr Death wasting tax payers money on the