[scottish_red]

Originally Posted by hypercrawl

Rooney isn't a striker, he's been placed in that position because he can read where the game is going and (perhaps more in the past) be in the right place in the right time.
Scholes was played more as a forward in his earlier days before being put in a position where he could use his vision and skills to more effect. Rooney might be better in that sort of position - he already covers most of the pitch as it is. He also, even when he's not entirely at his best, almost always plays a few passes every match where you can see what he was trying to do , but it just didn't come off.

i said it when we first signed him, rooney would be a great replacement for scholes.. but now we have anderson so that blows that suggestion away. Rooneys most effective role is that of a free roaming forward. getting into those positions defenders dont want to pick up and making things happen. The problem we have is that tevez cant play lone striker for any length and saha is the most consistently injured player ive ever seen. Therefore were forced to play rooney right up top regularly.

[Mithun]

just to educate you RvN was a immense goalscorer who scored all types of goals and continues to do so for club/country.

He simply came alive in the box and clinacally controlled and converted his chances! This is unlike rooney - who despite his tap in - is not a naturall goalscorer or clinical!

Rooney is one of the worst finishers to play in the current era!!!

Hughes,Cantona, Ole, Cole, Yorke, Sheringham, RvN all were class CFs - compare to Rooney!!

Originally Posted by Sam#1

I take it you didn't rate Ruud Van Nistelrooy then ? You know, with all those tap ins.



I swear, that's an understatement of the highest proportions.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Mithun

you dic*k if that is your argument then rooney has previously played on left-wing for MU and should have experience of playing the position.

Joe Cole - unlike Rooney has fine dribbling skills and close control and is able to make up for a lack of a left foot by largely using his close control on his right front! The assist for Jenas was class and he totally bamboozled the RB!

Full credit for Joe Cole for making light of the left-wing position - for being clever, technically superb and a team player - and who is certainly not clumsy - unlike a certain 'great'!

Rooney has played the odd match, on the left, as a sort of unorthodox left winger for us. Cole has been playing there for England and Chelsea for two years. It's like sticking Rio into centre midfield, and then having a go at him for not doing that well.I'm afraid your argument has a lot of major flaws.

Anyway, Rooney was great to today, and you my friend, are blind.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Mithun

just to educate you RvN was a immense goalscorer who scored all types of goals and continues to do so for club/country.

He simply came alive in the box and clinacally controlled and converted his chances! This is unlike rooney - who despite his tap in - is not a naturall goalscorer or clinical!

Rooney is one of the worst finishers to play in the current era!!!

Hughes,Cantona, Ole, Cole, Yorke, Sheringham, RvN all were class CFs - compare to Rooney!!

But tap ins don't constitute brilliance in your book, so RVN must have been shit as the majority of his goals were, yes you guessed it, tap ins!

[Mithun]

Rooney was wasteful, his shoulders dropped and he was all over the place, this against the Swiss - who afforded England alot of space - which Gerrard made the most of unlike roon!

Originally Posted by Sam#1

Rooney has played the odd match, on the left, as a sort of unorthodox left winger for us. Cole has been playing there for England and Chelsea for two years. It's like sticking Rio into centre midfield, and then having a go at him for not doing that well.I'm afraid your argument has a lot of major flaws.

Anyway, Rooney was great to today, and you my friend, are blind.

[Mithun]

RvN class, the best of his generation

Rooney - one of the most over-hyped players! His development compared to CR7 is a joke despite him being billed better by fans!

Originally Posted by Sam#1

But tap ins don't constitute brilliance in your book, so RVN must have been shit as the majority of his goals were, yes you guessed it, tap ins!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Mithun

Rooney was wasteful, his shoulders dropped and he was all over the place, this against the Swiss - who afforded England alot of space - which Gerrard made the most of unlike roon!

We were so shit today it was untrue, and Gerrard was so poor it was laughable, how he got MOTM, God only knows!

The only three players that stood out today, were, your love child Cole, Bentley and......I bet you an guess................






























Rooney!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Mithun

RvN class, the best of his generation

Rooney - one of the most over-hyped players! His development compared to CR7 is a joke despite him being billed better by fans!

You sir, are a spastic.

[scottish_red]

the only united player im comfortable with calling world class right now is Ferdinand btw i expect that to change in a couple of years and add Anderson, Ronaldo and Rooney to that.

[Mithun]

Once again, rooney had all the chances and messed up. But in your mind he's MOM contender??

Stop the rooney-loving!

The likes of Nani/ Anderson have the potential to emerge as the next big thing after cr7 - and may leave rooney trailing very soon!

[Mithun]

So what has ronaldo to do to be included in the world class category??

Originally Posted by scottish_red

the only united player im comfortable with calling world class right now is Ferdinand btw i expect that to change in a couple of years and add Anderson, Ronaldo and Rooney to that.

[crappycraperson]

Originally Posted by scottish_red

the only united player im comfortable with calling world class right now is Ferdinand btw i expect that to change in a couple of years and add Anderson, Ronaldo and Rooney to that.

If Ronaldo is not world class right now, I don't know who is. He would get into any team in the world and I include the likes of Barca, Brazil NT, AC, Inter in that.

As far as this thread goes, I won't say Rooney is WC now but doesn't matter he is very important to us. I do see the concern with him losing his first touch but I am putting that down to injuries for now. One full season without ant interreputations and Rooney would be counted up there with the world's best.

[scottish_red]

Originally Posted by Mithun

So what has ronaldo to do to be included in the world class category??

play well and dictate against top european or even prem opposition regularly.

[GusHiddink]

Originally Posted by scottish_red

thats one match i never watched, was abroad and couldnt get any coverage altho we lost, so im guessing your being sarcastic.

No, im being deadly serious. they destroyed arsenal. i mean that.

Originally Posted by Mithun

so ronoey is knackered and its ok to lose the ball clumsily with a joke step-over outside the box with a goal chance on?

Rooney must be unfit - if he is knackered - as i've seen winger's i.e. Ronaldo - ride 3-4 challenges and line up powerful shots without any problems!

I am real glad MU have class match-winners so they can carry Rooney when he messes up for MU!

Look you strange man...rooney was playing up top alone. Thats a nightmare...especially when you put the work in rooney does as opposed to someone like henry who just struts around. rooney was doing shuttle runs all night closing down 2 or even 3 defenders on his own knowing he was never gonna get the ball...thats sole destroying stuff but he kept at it. Unfit...please. he's amoung the fittest at our club ffs!

Originally Posted by Mithun

So you're saying a position exists for rooney and the great managers in SAF, SGE, Capello have been unable to get the best out of him????????

Great managers....spot the odd one out!!

His position is quite simple, second striker. Capello didnt play him there because he was not convinced by owen (rightly so). But you saw the difference crouch made. Ill be amazed if capello makes the same mistake twice.

Re: ferguson, stubborn scot. persists with a number of things despite repeated evidence against. e.g.451, blanc, fletcher (ouch), rooney left etc etc.

Hope this helps.

[GusHiddink]

Originally Posted by scottish_red

play well and dictate against top european or even prem opposition regularly.

take it you havent watched portugal much then

[Bape]

Originally Posted by crappycraperson

If Ronaldo is not world class right now, I don't know who is. He would get into any team in the world and I include the likes of Barca, Brazil NT, AC, Inter in that.

As far as this thread goes, I won't say Rooney is WC now but doesn't matter he is very important to us. I do see the concern with him losing his first touch but I am putting that down to injuries for now. One full season without ant interreputations and Rooney would be counted up there with the world's best.

Agreed. Ronaldo is not only world class, he is arguably the best player in the world...

[scottish_red]

Originally Posted by crappycraperson

If Ronaldo is not world class right now, I don't know who is. He would get into any team in the world and I include the likes of Barca, Brazil NT, AC, Inter in that.

As far as this thread goes, I won't say Rooney is WC now but doesn't matter he is very important to us. I do see the concern with him losing his first touch but I am putting that down to injuries for now. One full season without ant interreputations and Rooney would be counted up there with the world's best.

i agree he's the best player in the world just now, and arguably last season too. Ill tell you why he isnt world class tho, much the same as my last post he needs to perform when it matters. Thats why kaka won the award and contrary to popular belief not because he's brazilian or playing in italian league.

[scottish_red]

Originally Posted by GusHiddink

No, im being deadly serious. they destroyed arsenal. i mean that.

ahh that match, i thought u were referring to the Chelsea final. yes, as a team we played well that game and were unfortunate to lose but the fact is, we lost. i mean whats the point in buying a sports car to keep it locked away in your garage?

[scottish_red]

Originally Posted by GusHiddink

take it you havent watched portugal much then

not really, had a blinder at Euro 2004 but havent seen him since. damn its been 4years! shit time flys

[Mithun]

Rooney is the striker - he is judged on providing the attacking thrusts/ goals/ assists! not running around!
This when England played 5 midfielders and it was vs the great 'Switzerland' and at home FFS!

I love the Henry comparison but you're deluded. Unlike Rooney - Henry operates best as a player and serves for his team by looking to stretch teams by moving on the flanks. Henry is intelligent and class who realises this and hardly involves himself in tracking back etc or tackling where he may get hurt! Compare to Rooney who is braindead, loses his discipline and starts to drift into all positions!???

Even SAF told him to play his position and stop the clowning around which you think is a good idea!

Originally Posted by GusHiddink

No, im being deadly serious. they destroyed arsenal. i mean that.



Look you strange man...rooney was playing up top alone. Thats a nightmare...especially when you put the work in rooney does as opposed to someone like henry who just struts around. rooney was doing shuttle runs all night closing down 2 or even 3 defenders on his own knowing he was never gonna get the ball...thats sole destroying stuff but he kept at it. Unfit...please. he's amoung the fittest at our club ffs!



Great managers....spot the odd one out!!

His position is quite simple, second striker. Capello didnt play him there because he was not convinced by owen (rightly so). But you saw the difference crouch made. Ill be amazed if capello makes the same mistake twice.

Re: ferguson, stubborn scot. persists with a number of things despite repeated evidence against. e.g.451, blanc, fletcher (ouch), rooney left etc etc.

Hope this helps.

[Instant Karma]

Originally Posted by scottish_red

i agree he's the best player in the world just now, and arguably last season too. Ill tell you why he isnt world class tho, much the same as my last post he needs to perform when it matters. Thats why kaka won the award and contrary to popular belief not because he's brazilian or playing in italian league.

So the best player in the world isnt 'world' class ?

And as to performing when it matters - didnt the last minute goal against Fulham matter or the numerous winners he scored along the way to the title ?

I guess scoring 2 goals against Arsenal when we beat them 4-2 didnt matter. Or scoring a goal and setting up another this season. How about the cross to Fletcher that beat Chelsea or the last minute free kick against Liverpool ? None of these are big games i suppose

If Seedorf hadnt been brilliant in the earlier rounds, Milan would have never got to the semifinals of the CL. Does his contribution against Bayern matter less than Kaka's against United ?

[Mithun]

great post. Now scottish red needs to list some of his 'world-class' players so we can see whether he applies his own reasoning criteria?!

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

So the best player in the world isnt 'world' class ?

And as to performing when it matters - didnt the last minute goal against Fulham matter or the numerous winners he scored along the way to the title ?

All this performing when it matters is bollocks, if Seedorf hadnt been brilliant in the earlier rounds, Milan would have never got to the semifinals. Does his contribution against Bayern matter less than Kaka's against United ?

I guess scoring 2 goals against Arsenal when we beat them 4-2 didnt matter. Or scoring a goal and setting up another this season. How about the cross to Fletcher that beat Chelsea or the last minute free kick against Liverpool ? None of these are big games i suppose

[Instant Karma]

Originally Posted by Mithun

great post. Now scottish red needs to list some of his 'world-class' players so we can see whether he applies his own reasoning criteria?!

Scottish red is probably a 12 yr old who thinks Kaka is a big match player after watching the United games against Milan and some youtube clips.

The myth about Kaka performing when it matters -

Off the 10 goals that Kaka scored last season in the CL, there were 4 penalties, there was a Lampardesque deflected goal off the defender Zetka when Milan beat Anderlecht 1-0 away and a hatrick against them at home.

He was in Hargreaves pocket against Bayern and did nothing against Liverpool as long as Mascherano was on the pitch. His only worthy contributions were against Celtic and a depleted United defence.

Of the 8 league goals that Kaka scored, 4 were from the penalty spot again and 3 goals were against relegated sides Ascoli and Messina. Milan managed just 7 wins in their 19 away games.

18 goals - 8 penalties, 8 goals against Anderlecht / Ascoli/ Messina/ Celtic. Big match player indeed

[hypercrawl]

Originally Posted by Mithun

Rooney is the striker - he is judged on providing the attacking thrusts/ goals/ assists! not running around!
This when England played 5 midfielders and it was vs the great 'Switzerland' and at home FFS!

I love the Henry comparison but you're deluded. Unlike Rooney - Henry operates best as a player and serves for his team by looking to stretch teams by moving on the flanks. Henry is intelligent and class who realises this and hardly involves himself in tracking back etc or tackling where he may get hurt! Compare to Rooney who is braindead, loses his discipline and starts to drift into all positions!???

Even SAF told him to play his position and stop the clowning around which you think is a good idea!

As has been made clear in the past, Rooney played as a striker is a waste of both his talents and the position.
Not because he lacks the discipline, he's played there uncomplaining quite a few times in the past and stuck to the role, even though it takes away from his effectiveness as a player.
Neither does Rooney 'drift' into positions. The fact that he can be seen making a tackle in a part of the pitch where no striker is expected to be shows that he reads the game better than most, and that he's not a striker.

[scottish_red]

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

So the best player in the world isnt 'world' class ?

And as to performing when it matters - didnt the last minute goal against Fulham matter or the numerous winners he scored along the way to the title ?

I guess scoring 2 goals against Arsenal when we beat them 4-2 didnt matter. Or scoring a goal and setting up another this season. How about the cross to Fletcher that beat Chelsea or the last minute free kick against Liverpool ? None of these are big games i suppose

If Seedorf hadnt been brilliant in the earlier rounds, Milan would have never got to the semifinals of the CL. Does his contribution against Bayern matter less than Kaka's against United ?

firstly i wanna get it clear that i think he will be world class and probably sooner rather than later.

now your giving me a list of things that happened which span over the last 4 years and in that case im surprised you left out the exhibition match we had with the world 11. peach of a free kick. but yeh ok let me address them then

the 2 goals against arsenal was more of a team performance rather than an individual one and if memory serves me right both his goals were tap in, which im sure you will argue, right place at right time.

The cross to flether, peach of a ball but lets face it, it was a little overhit for any of the forwards and was just sheer fortune fletcher managed to score from that angle.

Freekick against liverpool.. he drove it in and reina scuffled it into the path of oshea, hardly one for the archives lol.


your other points about seedorf and last min goal against fulham holds substance and i tend to agree. Although my thinking is more out of the box, you see world class, is special. Its usually gained when the greater footballing audience, not just this country see a player perform at the highest level, world cups for example. Fulham isnt going to be watched or remember by kids in ecuador, nor is seedorfs performances at the earlier rounds of champions league. Zidanes headers at the world cup final against brazil will and his volley from outside the box in champions league final will.

[Instant Karma]

Originally Posted by hypercrawl

As has been made clear in the past, Rooney played as a striker is a waste of both his talents and the position

Thats the excuse often given for Rooney's poor finishing and struggling to score.
If he wastes a chance 7 yards from goal, does it really matter whether he plays as a striker or a deep lying forward ? He should be putting simple chances away irrespective of what position he plays on the pitch.

[Bape]

scottish_red, you are contradicting yourself with saying Ronaldo is the best player in the world but not world class. It's simply maths really, you cannot be the best player in the world (which means better than any other football player on the planet, including Kaka') and not be world class.

Zidanes headers at the world cup final against brazil will and his volley from outside the box in champions league final will.

You also cannot bring Zidane into the equation for comparisons sake, simply because he is arguable the best player of his generation. He's not only world class, he's probably one of the best players ever to have graced the game.

[scottish_red]

Originally Posted by Mithun

great post. Now scottish red needs to list some of his 'world-class' players so we can see whether he applies his own reasoning criteria?!

to be quite frank, as ive stated, the term world class is overused. some players that spring to mind are, pele, maradonna, van Basten , cruyff , Beckenbaur, Maldini, Zidane, platini, muller

[vuc]

I have to say that Joe Cole has been England's best player for a while now. Tonight everything he hit towards goal was threatening and also his passing. Top top player

[scottish_red]

Originally Posted by Bape

scottish_red, you are contradicting yourself with saying Ronaldo is the best player in the world but not world class. It's simply maths really, you cannot be the best player in the world (which means better than any other football player on the planet, including Kaka') and not be world class.



You also cannot bring Zidane into the equation for comparisons sake, simply because he is arguable the best player of his generation. He's not only world class, he's probably one of the best players ever to have graced the game.

i guess it all depends on what your classify world class really. not contadictions just difference of opinion.

[Instant Karma]

Originally Posted by vuc

I have to say that Joe Cole has been England's best player for a while now. Tonight everything he hit towards goal was threatening and also his passing. Top top player

Gerrard and Joe Cole are England's best attacking players based on their performances over the last couple of years.

[peterstorey]

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

Gerrard and Joe Cole are England's best attacking players based on their performances over the last couple of years.

Eh, Gerrard has been pretty shite for England since forever, a major reason why they lose control of the midfield and lose games.

[Instant Karma]

Originally Posted by scottish_red

it was a little overhit for any of the forwards and was just sheer fortune fletcher managed to score from that angle.

It was a fantastic ball to the far post. Ronaldo's job is to deliver a great ball into the box and its the job of the forwards to make the run to the far/near post. The fact that they didnt make the run whereas Fletcher did doesn't make it an overhit or lucky cross, just proves you know fuck all about football.

[Instant Karma]

Originally Posted by peterstorey

Eh, Gerrard has been pretty shite for England since forever, a major reason why they lose control of the midfield and lose games.

Thought Lampard's inability to dictate play, Becks not contributing anything apart from setpieces, Svens tactics, Mclaren being clueless, Cristiano Ronaldo, poor refereeing were the major reasons why England lost games, now its Gerrard being shite. I guess everyone else except world class Rooney is to blame

[scottish_red]

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

It was a fantastic ball to the far post. Ronaldo's job is to deliver a great ball into the box and its the job of the forwards to make the run to the far/near post. The fact that they didnt make the run whereas Fletcher did doesn't make it an overhit or lucky cross, just proves you know fuck all about football.

you must be on crack if you think that was a fantastic ball. in theory fletcher should have headed back across the box (could well have been trying that) instead of going for goal. Then u claim i know fuck all about football. i bet you supported liverpool in the 80's.

[PS18]

The amount of spoilt twatbaskets we have among our support never ceases to amaze me.

Wayne Rooney is a fucking special talent and we are incredibly fortunate to have him. Every other club worth mentioning would kill to have him in their squad. Can't actually believe some of the utter bollocks i'm reading in here, unbelievable.

[peterstorey]

Originally Posted by Instant Karma

Thought Lampard's inability to dictate play, Becks not contributing anything apart from setpieces, Svens tactics, Mclaren being clueless, Cristiano Ronaldo, poor refereeing were the major reasons why England lost games, now its Gerrard being shite. I guess everyone else except world class Rooney is to blame

He, he, many contributory - but look at Gerrard's performances for Liverpool if you don't agree (particularly the "experiment" of playing him on the right wing).

[scottish_red]

Originally Posted by PS18

The amount of spoilt twatbaskets we have among our support never ceases to amaze me.

Wayne Rooney is a fucking special talent and we are incredibly fortunate to have him. Every other club worth mentioning would kill to have him in their squad. Can't actually believe some of the utter bollocks i'm reading in here, unbelievable.

for your information. were debating weather he is world class. The term 'world class' is based entirely on opinion. Ive not slagged rooney bar say his first touch has gone amiss compared to what it used to be. thanks anyway great post

[Instant Karma]

Originally Posted by scottish_red

you must be on crack if you think that was a fantastic ball

What exactly are you on -

Originally Posted by scottish_red

The cross to flether, peach of a ball but lets face it

You contradict ourself every time you post. Ronaldo is world's best but not world class whereas Kaka who played well in one big game against a depleted United defence is world class. If playing well in the CL and World Cup/Euro alone defines the class of a player, it would mean Milan Baros or Klose are more world class than Shearer or RVN. And Podolski is more world class than Rooney or Tevez

[Raven Blade]

Mithun, Shut Up You Muppet!

Rooney is pure class. He is just desperate for a goal right now and its definitely affecting him mentally. Just about everything else he is doing is fine. He is working so damn hard for the team to create chances, track back and defend. Although things are not going his way at the moment, He Never Hides! Always willing to take a chance or try something special no matter the outcome.

I have no doubt he will be back among the goals again to make fools like you look stupid. Just have some faith you cretin.