[Zen]

Defence might win you shit in real life Snow, but it doesn't with fans.

[Snow]

Originally Posted by antohan

That's my dilemma. Not that Seedorf can't or hasn't played wide on the right, but most of his years in Milan have been precisely where I have Luis Enrique now.

I just fancy Luis Enrique in a box-to-box role for this game.

How -specifically- don't you understand Seedorf playing right?

It's an overkill. He won't be doing a wingers job. Enrique is more capable of beating his man whilst Seedorf keeps the ball and moves it to the next one. Better to have some pace out there. Don't need it in midfield when there are 3-4 from each team there. Won't be that much space so it's good to have a man with a wingers mind out wide.

[Snow]

Originally Posted by Zen

Defence might win you shit in real life Snow, but it doesn't with fans.

I know. But I still needed to strengthen it a bit. Goalkeepers win you less so I can skip Buffon. It's either the central midfield or front 3-4 that win you the votes.

[antohan]

Originally Posted by Snow

Brwned actually preferred Cannavaro and felt I didn't need a midfielder either.

But also indicated you were lacking playmaking in midfield.

I agree Cannavaro should be your top pick. Of course you need him more than anyone else (Thuram more so, I think I had mentioned that in one of the match threads). It is just that Rood was always going to pick a midfielder next, not Cannavaro once he had Thuram so it made sense for you to pick the right midfielder first as you had Cannavaro 98% guaranteed.

Lampard does way more defensively than Riquelme. Riquelme is completely useless when the other team has the ball. Possession won't be a huge issue.

Obviously I don't suggest Nedved over Lampard as a possession winner. It's about managing the game and what you do when in possession. Nedved is infinitely better than Lampard at that, so is Riquelme (his downside being that, indeed, he is uselss at anything else).

Here's a scenario. Frings has the ball. What's going to happen. Pressure from Overmars, Riquelme, McManaman or Henry is going to cause him to panic and hoof the ball forward. No.

I understand it is Vieira actually in that space.

You don't need a magic man to get balls out to the wing. Stoke do it all the time against better teams. And I've got miles better central midfielders and full backs than they've ever had.

That's precisely my point, your game consists of getting the ball to the wingers, run up and cross or cut in. That can be deadly of course, but it would help you no end to have someone who pulls strings in midfield so you don't become one-dimensional and predictable - much like Stoke.

[Snow]

I don't understand your criticisms. Are they only that I picked Cannavaro first? I don't get that. He's my main choice since Thuram was gone. If I had picked Nedved there was no guarantee that Rood wouldn't go for Cannavaro. Back four of Thuram-Gallas-Cannavaro-R.Carlos.

I'll say it again. Rood said that he's a sucker for Ballon d'Or winners. You might think it doesn't matter but voters probably do pick up on it. The criteria given is players at their peak and with that defense, Rivaldo and Guardiola in midfield and be able to say that he has 4 players who were the best player in the world at their peak is a huge vote winner.

You might be surprised that my final pick is Deco.

This most likely my formation.

[antohan]

Originally Posted by Crustanoid

I would play

..................Forlan.....Vieri........
.........................Zidane........
...........Seedorf...Simeone..Enrique....

as your front 6. You have two very strong attacking full backs to provide more width if needed.

Other options are a midfield 4 with Zidane on his left-hand role that he played in for France, or bring Zanetti into midfield with Simeone and play 4-2-3-1 (do you have another RB in your ranks? or LB as Candela can play RB)

I got Seedorf precisely to be able to get Zanetti back at fullback

But yeah, get your point. I quite like the 4-3-1-2 option and reckon I would win the game that way. I'm really erring on the side of caution here and putting more resources into midfield to ensure I control possession and the game (I actually put this together thinking kps would have Beckham, Ljungberg is considerably less worrying).

It's always the same, I prepare for a game trying to nullify the rival, then just think "sod it" and go for the jugular. But as this progresses I do have to pay a lot more attention to it.

[antohan]

Originally Posted by Snow

You might be surprised that my final pick is Deco.

The sort of player you needed.

Maybe you are right and Rood would have picked Cannavaro and seeing as he was so important maybe it wasn't worth the risk of that happening. I just find Nedved is worth taking risks, personal choice.

[antohan]

Originally Posted by Snow

It's an overkill. He won't be doing a wingers job. Enrique is more capable of beating his man whilst Seedorf keeps the ball and moves it to the next one. Better to have some pace out there. Don't need it in midfield when there are 3-4 from each team there. Won't be that much space so it's good to have a man with a wingers mind out wide.

That's a fair point. I was more focused on the possession battle than the threat from the wings, lots to think about...

[Rood]

FWIW I orginally aimed for a defender and midfielder - I took Thuram first because I was sure Snow would pick him if I didnt as we both had a RB weakness.
If Snow had then gone for Nedved then I may well have switched plan and gone for Cannavaro over Cocu, I hadnt really decided TBH.

As it is I am very happy to get Thuram and Nedved.
Thuram obviously replaces Carr and I suppose most would expect Nedved to come in for Baggio (if I want to go more attacking) or Schneider (a bit more defensive), although I am considering going 4-2-3-1 and dropping a striker to the bench instead.

[Snow]

Originally Posted by antohan

The sort of player you needed.

Maybe you are right and Rood would have picked Cannavaro and seeing as he was so important maybe it wasn't worth the risk of that happening. I just find Nedved is worth taking risks, personal choice.

He might be but I must consider my future in this comp as well. Cling doesn't have a great defense. Personally I wouldn't have any of his players over mine. Neville will probably start instead of Heinze because I don't need the support from full backs as much. I've got a very good counter attacking side and that's a good way to score goals. It's easy to pick from his side what I want if I win. Not as much so if I didn't get Cannavaro. A chance I wasn't willing to take.

[Polaroid]

Originally Posted by antohan

That's where Verón differs from those three, he is not as much a master of control and creating space, more a master of exploiting it. Very fine line, but I don't see him as a Scholes/Xavi type.

I said that players with awareness and technique like Scholes, Xavi, Silva and Veron are the ones that cope best with limitations in time and space. Which part do you disagree on? that Veron can cope with limited space and time better than most?

[antohan]

It's a real shame the two best wide partnerships will face each other this early.

In fact, it's a shame so many cracking players will be gone by the end of the next round

[antohan]

Originally Posted by Polaroid

I said that players with awareness and technique like Scholes, Xavi, Silva and Veron are the ones that cope best with limitations in time and space. Which part do you disagree on? that Veron can cope with limited space and time better than most?

What I'm saying is there must be an extra element that differentiates Scholes/Xavi from Verón because they re not the same in that sense. Not sure exactly what it is, I tried to explain, clearly I was unsuccessful. It may be dwelling on the ball, or not being patient enough to play a lot of consecutive passes waiting for an opening, the need to place a wonderball being irresistible, movement... I can't quite pin it down but something makes Verón somewhat different to the others when it comes to dealing with limited time and space.

[Polaroid]

Originally Posted by antohan

What I'm saying is there must be an extra element that differentiates Scholes/Xavi from Verón because they re not the same in that sense. Not sure exactly what it is, I tried to explain, clearly I was unsuccessful. It may be dwelling on the ball, or not being patient enough to play a lot of consecutive passes waiting for an opening, the need to place a wonderball being irresistible, movement... I can't quite pin it down but something makes Verón somewhat different to the others when it comes to dealing with limited time and space.

I was not saying that they have the same style of play, merely that these players share the characteristics of great awareness and technique which enable them to cope with limited time and space better than most players. Do you think that Veron is better than most at coping with limited time and space?

[Rood]

or

[antohan]

Originally Posted by Polaroid

I was not saying that they have the same style of play, merely that these players share the characteristics of great awareness and technique which enable them to cope with limited time and space better than most players. Do you think that Veron is better than most at coping with limited time and space?

Yes, agree, that's all well and good. My point was that comparatively Verón wasn't as good at coping with it.

[Brwned]

The second one looks best to me Rood.

[Polaroid]

Originally Posted by antohan

Yes, agree, that's all well and good. My point was that comparatively Verón wasn't as good at coping with it.

He does not have to be as good as Scholes and Xavi to still be pretty damn good at it

[antohan]

Originally Posted by Rood

or

I like the first one better but the second one would be more appropriate against Brwned. Why not Baggio between Schneider and Nedved?

(We've been here before during the draft, I prefer the rest of the midfield shielding/protecting Guardiola so he doesn't get too embroiled and focuses on pinging balls).

Having Schneider, Nedved and Rivaldo up there (and Guardiola placing balls from deep to them and the fullbacks) should make Brwned's DMs play closer to the back four, who themselves shouldn't allow Owen too much space. If you place Baggio more advanced you make it even harder for him to get out of that. Guardiola can keep Valerón in his pocket and the forwards will be isolated.

I rate Guardiola higher than Pirlo (passing and defensive work), Rivaldo ahead of Valerón and your fullbacks ahead of his. Just keep Davids and Tacchinardi battling deep with Pirlo and the fullbacks as the viable but rather blunt outlet. For this you need Baggio to have a more advanced (i.e. neutral instead of deep) role.

You have everything going for you to keep him under siege most of the game.

[antohan]

Originally Posted by Polaroid

He does not have to be as good as Scholes and Xavi to still be pretty damn good at it

Of course not, the whole thing came up because I was suggesting his lower ability to perform without space and time on the ball were a factor in him not being particularly fond of pressing (i.e. he can do it but it is not a great idea if you want him to pull the strings).

[Polaroid]

Originally Posted by antohan

Of course not, the whole thing came up because I was suggesting his lower ability to perform without space and time on the ball were a factor in him not being particularly fond of pressing (i.e. he can do it but it is not a great idea if you want him to pull the strings).

Are you saying that Veron has an aversion to pressing? and that his aversion arises from lower performance due to being pressed in return?

[antohan]

Originally Posted by Polaroid

Are you saying that Veron has an aversion to pressing? and that his aversion arises from lower performance due to being pressed in return?

Yes, if by aversion we mean "preference against", not some sort of phobia.

Edit: not saying it as fact, suggesting it may be a reason why we rarely see him pressing in a disciplined/continuous way. With Riquelme it is just plain lazy, but Veron isn't lazy so there must be another reason.

[Polaroid]

Originally Posted by antohan

Yes, if by aversion we mean "preference against", not some sort of phobia.

Edit: not saying it as fact, suggesting it may be a reason why we rarely see him pressing in a disciplined/continuous way. With Riquelme it is just plain lazy, but Veron isn't lazy so there must be another reason.

We may not be privy to the tactical instructions Veron received but he has shown in matches the engine, work-rate and discipline to press, as Brwned would concur

Originally Posted by Brwned

This was news to me I must admit, I was always under the impression that while Veron wasn't a liability like Valeron he still didn't involve himself much in the defensive phase at all. Was just watching the '99 Uefa Cup final there and it seems I was wrong, he pressed this high up the pitch constantly often in a very disciplined system:



Obviously it's not much in isolation but I was genuinely surprised. Was I wrong in thinking that the general impression was that he didn't work hard enough, or was that just the reaction to him not working out at United?

We have agreed that Veron is one of those players with awareness and technique that cope with limited space and time better than others.

If you have players with awareness, technique and work-rate, a pressing game with its limited space and time can work in your favour. Barcelona being one example.

[antohan]

Originally Posted by Polaroid

We may not be privy to the tactical instructions Veron received but he has shown in matches the engine, work-rate and discipline to press, as Brwned would concur

Most of the time he didn't do it though. I wouldn't in any way hold that as a characteristic of his.

We have agreed that Veron is one of those players with awareness and technique that cope with limited space and time better than others.

Which at this level doesn't mean much. Most playmakers still in the game do it better than him.

If you have players with awareness, technique and work-rate, a pressing game with its limited space and time can work in your favour. Barcelona being one example.

Verón would warm the bench at Barca and probably would end up like Riquelme, shining for a lesser team.

[Cold_Boy]

SUBS: Hamann
Albelda
Wiltord

So going with Keane and Ballack in central midfield and Litmanen as the man in the hole/creative position. Beckham to put in the crosses and the height in my team being the advantage with everyone 6 or above except Di Natale and Lauren.

Di Natale will play on the left as an left sided attacking midfielder and will cut in towards the goal as well as put in balls with his favored and famous left foot.

Team has balanced width on both sides as Abidal (especially) and Lauren are known for their attacking as well as defending.

Plenty of goals in my team with Shevcheko, Litmanen, Ballack, Di Natale, Beckham all proven goal scorers. All in all a perfectly balanced team

[Jayvin]

Nice team, Cold Boy, but can you put Materazzi in the left CB slot? It's doing my head in having him on the wrong side.

[Brwned]

Been thinking the same all the way through!

[antohan]

Originally Posted by Jayvin

Nice team, Cold Boy, but can you put Materazzi in the left CB slot? It's doing my head in having him on the wrong side.

same here

[Gio]

I prefer the second team Rood, although I'd maybe pull Rivaldo back 5-10 yards and gain a bit more width in midfield, as long as Owen isn't too isolated up top. The rationale for that is I've seen 4-2-2-2 fail too many times when used by European teams.

[Cold_Boy]

Originally Posted by antohan

same here

Originally Posted by Brwned

Been thinking the same all the way through!

Originally Posted by Jayvin

Nice team, Cold Boy, but can you put Materazzi in the left CB slot? It's doing my head in having him on the wrong side.

Yea put him there by mistake.

Wasn't online for long so pm'd Brwnd the new image.

[antohan]

I have a tough day at work so by the time I come back it may all be said and done

Brwned, PMed you yesterday the tactics and notes (Subject: Antohan v. kps88)

[kps88]

Originally Posted by antohan

Brwned, PMed you yesterday the tactics and notes (Subject: Antohan v. kps88)

Same here.

[Cling Bak]

My team:



Substitutes:
M.Laursen
Ze Roberto
F.Morientes

[Cold_Boy]

Very good team that, apart from the defense.

[Crustanoid]

Yep, I like the balance in Cling Baks team - the defence ain't that bad, Gary Kelly permitting

[Cling Bak]

Originally Posted by Cold_Boy

Very good team that, apart from the defense.

Good one.

All those World Cup and European medals were obviously found in Christmas crackers.

2 World Cups, 1 Euro, 4 Champions League's, FYI.

[Cold_Boy]

Originally Posted by Cling Bak

Good one.

All those World Cup and European medals were obviously found in Christmas crackers.

2 World Cups, 1 Euro, 4 Champions League's, FYI.

I didn't say that wasn't a good defense.It is a good defense but at this stage of the draw and compared to your other positions which are fantastic, its not that good comparatively.

Carvalho is obviously your best.

[Snow]

Here's my text thingie and formation for the next match Brwned.

Spoiler

I'm going for a very solid 4-2-3-1 formation that should be able to deal with any variation of 4-4-2. It's the Manchester United Europe playing style. That's how I roll. With Giggs as my Giggs and Figo as my "I wish we had Figo" type player on the right I form the most dangerous winger partnership that the world has ever seen.

Making sure that they get the mall is my midfield maestro champion, Deco. Petit will pick up some grit but he's not solely going to that as my midfield works as a unit. Lampard, no matter how he's doing on the pitch, will most likely get a great shooting opportunity. He always does.


My defense is composed of great veterans in both Champions and domestic league with their respected clubs as well as on the international stage. There are no slow joes lurking there. They've got brains and balls the size of brains. They'll make sure that my goalkeeper will have as little as do as possible.

Dida: Solid goalkeeper in his prime (which is all that matters) and voted the best goalkeeper in Europe when AC Milan won them CL in 2005. Highly successful in Brazil before he came to Europe and added to his trophy cabinet.

Phil Neville: Reliable player and was our very own John O'Shea before John O'Shea became John O'Shea. At his United and England prime he was doing the left back jiggle. Did well at United and has become the captain of Everton.

Samuel Kuffour: Played many years in the heart of the Bayern Munchen defense along with Thomas Linke. They made up the best defensive pair in the Bundesliga and won the CL shortly after the famous final in '99. 2 times African player of the year (runner up) and the Ashford & Simpson song solid could well be a description for his defensive capabilities

Jens Nowotny: Leverkusen were a European powerhouse for two years with the likes of Nowotny and Ramelow in defense, Ballack and Ze Roberto in midfield. They're the reason for the teams almost success in every stage. Masters of runner-upery but that was not the defenses fault. Only player in my team who's not won a major trophy

Fabio Cannavaro: Best player in the world in 2006, twice in a row awarded the best defender in Italy, has been in the team of the tournament at both the WC and EC. 136 caps for Italy. One of the greatest defenders of his generation.

Emmanuel Petit: He paired up with Vieira and won the WC and PL but before that he captained Monaco to a league title. His midfield prowess were rivaled only by his partner and our own midfield at the time and made for heated battles.

Deco: The Brazilian "Portuguese" playmaker joins golden generation player and "countrymen" Figo in the middle. He's won the league in 4 different countries and has 2 CL medals with two different teams and with those two teams he's been voted the best midfielder in the CL on each occasion. The maestro in my midfield and makes my game flow on like a clock like my girl Kesha preaches about.

Luis Figo: I can't describe him properly without filling the page. Best player in the world in 2001 and one of the best almost his whole career. Not many have more trophies than him and he's achieved it with 3 different clubs. Simply a great great great player.

Frank Lampard: We love to hate him because he's just so damn good at scoring goals. Can't think of many midfielders that rival him in that aspect. An intelligent player who's a model of consistency. He plays in his favorite spot where I'll get the most out of him.

Ryan Giggs: It's Ryan fucking Giggs. Great now at age 38 but remember him in his prime? I certainly do

Patrick Kluivert: At birth him and Ruud decided to share their careers fairly. Patrick burst on to the scene with Ajax, who with their golden generation won it all. In his prime he played alone up front at Barcelona with Rivaldo behind him and that is the role he plays for me. In that role he managed to become the 4th ever top goal scorer for the Catalans (now 6th after Messi and Eto'o) and is still the top goal scorer for the Netherlands. He won the golden boot at Euro 2000 where the Dutch lost in penalties to Italy.

Substitute: Nicholas Anelka
A footballer who's been in an endless search to find himself. On his way he's won a number of league titles in different countries and a CL medal as well. Golden boot winner whilst at Chelsea he's a sub that can come on for any one of players really. Gives me the option of changing into a 4-4-2 with Frings, Petit or Ballack out. I could even play a three man defense and take out Neville if drastic measures are needed. Great bench option.

Gabriel Heinze: He was purchased to United for being good at football. He certainly showed that and was voted our best player in the 04/05 season. A fan favorite before he became 2nd fiddle after a long term injury. But he moved on an went on to Real Madrid and then Marseille, picking up some trophies along the way. A veteran of every stage of football like his other defensive members.

Torsten Frings: With Frings I've got a player with great vision and passing, hard tackling and a great shooter. He's like a mix between Pirlo and a regular German defensive midfielder. Sporting the hair, shooting and passing of Pirlo with the tackling, work rate and nationality of a German. Great fit next to Petit.

Footnote:
My team has 2 Ballon d'Or winners, 62 league medals, 11 CL medals, 1 EC winner and 3 WC winners, 1 Copa America and Libertadores winner and 115 different cup medals which include the Cup Winners Cup, FA Cup, various Super Cups etc.

Player honors they've got plenty of as well.

[Gio]

Originally Posted by Cling Bak

My team:



Substitutes:
M.Laursen
Ze Roberto
F.Morientes

That's a sensational front six you've got.

[antohan]

Originally Posted by Cling Bak

My team:



Substitutes:
M.Laursen
Ze Roberto
F.Morientes

Wow, that's pretty damn good stuff.

A few comments though:

• Would swap Vieira and Mendieta (I suspect you put Vieira there to protect the right side of defence, but Mendieta doesn't look right)
• Edmilson and Capdevila have the most honours but your best defender is Carvalho
• Edmilson was more a DM who dropped back to CB, don't see him as a strong CB myself. Brings a lot of experience Laursen lacks though.
• Your right side of defence is thus looking very weak, maybe switch Carvalho and Edmilson so you alternate better and worse defenders? (particularly, make up for Kelly by having Carvalho on that side)