[kouroux]

Originally Posted by Twigginater

There's some bizarre thing in football fans that means if you're young and have a few good games, you're suddenly amazing. Theo Walcott had all this hype. I think it's a desire to get there ahead of your friends, with regards to spotting talent, and also this bizarre idea which seems to have come from FM that a player improves rapidly till they're 21 then suddenly stops.

Theo Walcott has scored 6 goals and has 7 assists this year in premier league games. He's hardly been as woeful as everyone's made out. Yet people act like "The Ox" whose played about 3 games at the top level deserves to go to the Euros ahead of him.

The stages of a good players career now goes:

a) Heard about in reserve teams, hyped up massively
b) Plays a few good games for first team, suddenly going to be the best player ever in the world
c) Hits the age of 22, still not a definite starter, maybe troubles with injuries, has a few poorish games
d) Everyone says they lack game intelligence, and right them off as never going to be good enough.

See: Walcott, Evans, Rafael

Macheda, Welbeck, Sturridge etc etc are at various stages of this process as well.

Spot on.When you think about it, it's a really pathetic and lame way of thinking.

[marjen]

Originally Posted by Twigginater

There's some bizarre thing in football fans that means if you're young and have a few good games, you're suddenly amazing. Theo Walcott had all this hype. I think it's a desire to get there ahead of your friends, with regards to spotting talent, and also this bizarre idea which seems to have come from FM that a player improves rapidly till they're 21 then suddenly stops.

Theo Walcott has scored 6 goals and has 7 assists this year in premier league games. He's hardly been as woeful as everyone's made out. Yet people act like "The Ox" whose played about 3 games at the top level deserves to go to the Euros ahead of him.

The stages of a good players career now goes:

a) Heard about in reserve teams, hyped up massively
b) Plays a few good games for first team, suddenly going to be the best player ever in the world
c) Hits the age of 22, still not a definite starter, maybe troubles with injuries, has a few poorish games
d) Everyone says they lack game intelligence, and right them off as never going to be good enough.

See: Walcott, Evans, Rafael

Macheda, Welbeck, Sturridge etc etc are at various stages of this process as well.

A lot of words to state "there's easy to overhype kids".

But I don't agree with Chamberlain. I say the same thing now that I said with Welbeck, he's just too good not to become a top player. Same thing with Wilshere, Rooney and Fabregas in their time. Rarely do you see a player who's got so much to his game at such a young age.

With Walcott, there was always an element of "do he have the brains or the touch, or the composure?", and to be fair, the jury might still be out on that one.

With Chamberlain he's got the lot, it's only a matter of putting it together consistantly, which usually comes with experience.

[Twigginater]

I don't know if there's players you can "always definitely see it" with. I mean world class players like Rooney/Ronaldo/Nani have all had their abilities questioned at times. Players like Pique and Alonso as well.

Whereas there's loads of hyped youngsters who people would have said would definitely make it. Like Queresma and Joe Cole.

[marjen]

Originally Posted by Twigginater

I don't know if there's players you can "always definitely see it" with. I mean world class players like Rooney/Ronaldo/Nani have all had their abilities questioned at times. Players like Pique and Alonso as well.

Whereas there's loads of hyped youngsters who people would have said would definitely make it. Like Queresma and Joe Cole.

Rooney for me was a definite, but I'll be as honest as admitting I had serious doubts about both Ronaldo and Nani. Obviously both had the talent, but I was unsure of whether they had the greater understanding of the game required. And to be fair, at some measure, you could say that both still are lacking in this aspect, but their ridicilous talent and hard work in other areas make up for it.

Chamberlain for me looks like he's just got too much to his game not to make it. There's literally not a single weakness for a player of his kind.

[Brwned]

Originally Posted by Twigginater

There's some bizarre thing in football fans that means if you're young and have a few good games, you're suddenly amazing. Theo Walcott had all this hype. I think it's a desire to get there ahead of your friends, with regards to spotting talent, and also this bizarre idea which seems to have come from FM that a player improves rapidly till they're 21 then suddenly stops.

There are some players that have a natural intelligence and skill to their game that sets them apart - just because you couldn't see that in Wilshere and can't see that in the Ox doesn't mean it isn't there nor should it mean people can't point it out. People knew after a few games that Fabregas would be a great midfielder, just like they knew Rooney would be a great striker just like they knew Giggs would be a great winger, because they were already there when they stepped onto the pitch. They could already play their position at the top level, and even if they didn't improve from that point onwards they could still play at the top level.

That's different to people like Walcott and Evans or Sturridge or whoever who still have more to add to their game, they were/are just very promising for their age.

[kouroux]

Ronaldo is a great example, the talent was there but not many saw a Ballon d'Or and a inhuman like goalscorer in him.My personal opinion is that I need to see more from AOC and on a longer period.The talent and intelligence are there but it's not all in football

[Twigginater]

I don't know how anyone can see an intelligence in the "Ox". Especially when he hasn't played a full game, and only recently started playing.

[marjen]

Originally Posted by kouroux

Ronaldo is a great example, the talent was there but not many saw a Ballon d'Or and a inhuman like goalscorer in him.My personal opinion is that I need to see more from AOC and on a longer period.The talent and intelligence are there but it's not all in football

I agree on Ronaldo - what made him apart was this unnatural hunger and willingness to work to become the player he is today. He became a physical phenomenon when frankly he had no right to be.

With the Ox, he's physically perfectly cut out for top level football - and he's got the brains as well. As for the talent, well it's there to see.

So I'm quite confident he'll become a top player. Already, he's taken charge of an Arsenal team in desperate need for some sort of inspiration, and that says something about a players talent and maturity.

[Twigginater]

I mean was this talent evident in Chamberlain when he played for Southampton against United? Because no-one particually wanted him then. Or was it evident in yesterdays game v 10 men Blackburn when much maligned "no intelligence" Walcott got three assists.

[Twigginater]

Originally Posted by marjen

I agree on Ronaldo - what made him apart was this unnatural hunger and willingness to work to become the player he is today. He became a physical phenomenon when frankly he had no right to be.

With the Ox, he's physically perfectly cut out for top level football - and he's got the brains as well. As for the talent, well it's there to see.

So I'm quite confident he'll become a top player. Already, he's taken charge of an Arsenal team in desperate need for some sort of inspiration, and that says something about a players talent and maturity.

See this is what I mean. He's started in four prem games I think.

I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying Arsenal have lost 2 of those games, and drawn one.

It's not like he's taken charge of anything. He's had flashes of incredible play.

[marjen]

Originally Posted by Twigginater

I mean was this talent evident in Chamberlain when he played for Southampton against United? Because no-one particually wanted him then. Or was it evident in yesterdays game v 10 men Blackburn when much maligned "no intelligence" Walcott got three assists.

This talent(and intelligence) was for example evident when he took charge against a top team dominating his team at their own turf, and created a goal as well as causing havoc.

You're just confident that he'll make the right decision when he gets the ball, you always feel something will happen.

Anyway, if you don't see it, then fair enough, I just think's it's as obvious as it was with Rooney.

[africanspur]

I actually agree with Twigginator and Koroux. AOC looks like a very very talented player right now, without a doubt. Been hugely impressed by him. But comments like he's already a level above all the other English wingers, or he's going to be one of the best wingers in the world etc are ridiculous. We've barely seen him play yet.

And this happens with lots of other players. How much hype was there around the likes of Quaresma, Cole and Denilson? How guaranteed was it that they were going to reach the top? And people will backtrack now but similar kinds of things were being said about Walcott years back, some are still saying the next England side should be built around him and Rooney. Nani and Bale were very talented youngsters but who saw them turning into the kinds of players they are now? Who saw the greasy stepover kid bought to replace Beckham turning into a goal machine?

Why don't we just let him develop as a young player should be able to? Without hyperbole and hysteria?

[Twigginater]

Originally Posted by marjen

This talent(and intelligence) was for example evident when he took charge against a top team dominating his team at their own turf, and created a goal as well as causing havoc.

You're just confident that he'll make the right decision when he gets the ball, you always feel something will happen.

Anyway, if you don't see it, then fair enough, I just think's it's as obvious as it was with Rooney.

Took charge?

He made 28 passes in 74 minutes. No interceptions, and 2 shots.

He looked decent that day. But for most of the match he was a bystander, and thanks to a superb finish by the most in form striker in the league, he got an assist.

This kid COULD be amazing. But he wasn't exceptional against us IMO. He looked very good yesterday, but as I said Walcott looked great yesterday, and people deride him constantly.

[marjen]

Originally Posted by africanspur

I actually agree with Twigginator and Koroux. AOC looks like a very very talented player right now, without a doubt. Been hugely impressed by him. But comments like he's already a level above all the other English wingers, or he's going to be one of the best wingers in the world etc are ridiculous. We've barely seen him play yet.

And this happens with lots of other players. How much hype was there around the likes of Quaresma, Cole and Denilson? How guaranteed was it that they were going to reach the top? And people will backtrack now but similar kinds of things were being said about Walcott years back, some are still saying the next England side should be built around him and Rooney. Nani and Bale were very talented youngsters but who saw them turning into the kinds of players they are now? Who saw the greasy stepover kid bought to replace Beckham turning into a goal machine?

Why don't we just let him develop as a young player should be able to? Without hyperbole and hysteria?

I agree with your general point, and there's plenty of players I've seen who I thought "nah, they'll not be top class" and they have gone and proved me wrong, Ronaldo being the prime example.

However, I'm confident in saying I've never seen the same in players like Nani, Bale, Walcott, Quaresma, Cole and Denilson, as you mention, that I see in Chamberlain.

As I tried and explain in one of my earlier posts, most young players will have the talent, perhaps coupled with a fine understanding of the game(Evans), or perhaps coupled with a great physique(Bale). However, very rarely do you see players like Rooney or Chamberlain, who's got it all. Physique, intelligence, skill. Put it together, which Chamberlain shows signs of doing already, and that is one fearsome combo.

What remains to be seen for me is just how good he can become. He's already a very, very promising Premiership winger, without any obvious weaknesses in his game - does he have the application to become a top class player? I think he'll become one.

[Brwned]

Originally Posted by africanspur

Why don't we just let him develop as a young player should be able to? Without hyperbole and hysteria?

Why not just let people get caught up in the excitement of seeing a promising new player breaking into the side, what harm does it do?

[Twigginater]

Originally Posted by Brwned

Why not just let people get caught up in the excitement of seeing a promising new player breaking into the side, what harm does it do?

Because the same people over hyping the young players are the same people who will then slag of Walcott/Anderson/Evans when they struggle for a while

[marjen]

Okay, I can't be arsed to discuss this further, in my humble opinion and with my limited knowledge of the game, I'm of the opinion that I see talent that just can't be suppressed in Chamberlain. If he fail horribly, then I'll hold my hand up and say I was wrong, but I predict this kid to become a top player for years to come.

As for those comparing him with Walcott, it's just not comparable. Walcott was always a speed merchant with little else to his game, and even if he can be effective at times(like he showed yesterday) he won't become a top player due to lacking key components that a footballer need. He's not intelligent enough, and not skillful enough, to become a top class player.

Chamberlain will become a top player, and that's my last post about this today. Let me have my opinion, I won't hold back on it for the sake of it.

[africanspur]

Originally Posted by marjen

I agree with your general point, and there's plenty of players I've seen who I thought "nah, they'll not be top class" and they have gone and proved me wrong, Ronaldo being the prime example.

However, I'm confident in saying I've never seen the same in players like Nani, Bale, Walcott, Quaresma, Cole and Denilson, as you mention, that I see in Chamberlain.

As I tried and explain in one of my earlier posts, most young players will have the talent, perhaps coupled with a fine understanding of the game(Evans), or perhaps coupled with a great physique(Bale). However, very rarely do you see players like Rooney or Chamberlain, who's got it all. Physique, intelligence, skill. Put it together, which Chamberlain shows signs of doing already, and that is one fearsome combo.

What remains to be seen for me is just how good he can become. He's already a very, very promising Premiership winger, without any obvious weaknesses in his game - does he have the application to become a top class player? I think he'll become one.

What are the weaknesses in Bale's game and Nani's game if you don't mind me asking that allows AOC to step a level above in terms of potential?

Originally Posted by Brwned

Why not just let people get caught up in the excitement of seeing a promising new player breaking into the side, what harm does it do?

Because when he inevitably goes through a poor run of form, people turn on him and declare that he's failed to live up to his potential.

[marjen]

Originally Posted by Twigginater

Because the same people over hyping the young players are the same people who will then slag of Walcott/Anderson/Evans when they struggle for a while

I've always defended Evans/Anderson, and I still believe Evans will go on to be a very, very good defender. Anderson I'm not so sure about, but the talent's there.

Walcott I've always said won't become a top player.

So don't say I change my opinion with the change of wind. It's my judgement on players, and it's just that. What harm does it do if I think Chamberlain will become a top player?

[Raoul]

Never rated Walcott back then, but I see an unusual cocktail of characteristics in OC that leaves me in little doubt he will be one of England's best for a very long time. His verve reminds me bit of Rooney in his final Everton days.

[marjen]

Originally Posted by africanspur

What are the weaknesses in Bale's game and Nani's game if you don't mind me asking that allows AOC to step a level above in terms of potential? .

Bale: Always questioned his decision making, and composure. He's improved greatly in those aspects. I said he was overhyped on the evidence of last season, and I stand by that, this season he's become a better player. For him though, it's been a steady trajectory, relatively speaking, when it comes to his development. Chamberlain in my book is more of a thinking mans footballer, with better vision(and less raw pace and physique).

Nani: Always was, and to be fair there still are, as seen in other threads on this very forum, questions about his understanding, awareness and intelligence. Yes he had the talent and a good physique, but would he ever let the penny drop and choose the correct option more often than not? In the end, perhaps his amount of sheer talent compensated for his lack of footballing intelligence.

I'm not saying AOC will be a better player in his peak than those two, who might still be a way of their peak, but I'm saying he's got too much to his game for him not to become a top player. It's not that difficult to understand, surely?

[Brwned]

Originally Posted by africanspur

Because when he inevitably goes through a poor run of form, people turn on him and declare that he's failed to live up to his potential.

That happens to people who don't get hyped up anyway, though, just in a different way. People like complaining, football fans are good at complaining. People never thought Carrick had the potential to develop into someone like Keane but that doesn't stop people from complaining that he doesn't have Keane-features. Instead of complaining about him not developing into the player he could've been, people complain about him not developing into the player they wanted him to be.

[kouroux]

Originally Posted by Twigginater

Took charge?

He made 28 passes in 74 minutes. No interceptions, and 2 shots.

He looked decent that day. But for most of the match he was a bystander, and thanks to a superb finish by the most in form striker in the league, he got an assist.

This kid COULD be amazing. But he wasn't exceptional against us IMO. He looked very good yesterday, but as I said Walcott looked great yesterday, and people deride him constantly.

It can be said that RVP assisted him to get his assist

[Edmeiste]

Originally Posted by Brwned

That happens to people who don't get hyped up anyway, though, just in a different way. People like complaining, football fans are good at complaining. People never thought Carrick had the potential to develop into someone like Keane but that doesn't stop people from complaining that he doesn't have Keane-features. Instead of complaining about him not developing into the player he could've been, people complain about him not developing into the player they wanted him to be.

Brwned, even though I've never met you in person, your posts continually suggest to me that you're a pretty calm and observant person overall. You talk as if you have some great insight about the game but you dont say it in an arrogant or sheepish way. Guess that's why you got poster of the year 2 years ago.

[Cheesy]

Originally Posted by Brwned

Why not just let people get caught up in the excitement of seeing a promising new player breaking into the side, what harm does it do?

It does a lot of harm. Suddenly, enormous expectations are heaped on the players shoulders, and he's expected to be a lot better than he will be. That pressure doesn't help the player in the slightest.

[Varun_Utd]

Originally Posted by Edmeiste

Brwned, even though I've never met you in person, your posts continually suggest to me that you're a pretty calm and observant person overall. You talk as if you have some great insight about the game but you dont say it in an arrogant or sheepish way. Guess that's why you got poster of the year 2 years ago.

Boss doesnt like this.

[RedLars]

Originally Posted by Raoul

Never rated Walcott back then, but I see an unusual cocktail of characteristics in OC that leaves me in little doubt he will be one of England's best for a very long time. His verve reminds me bit of Rooney in his final Everton days.

I love how, in the middle of all the bickering about whether you should be allowed to predict whether a player will be top notch or not, you just step in like "Hey guys, sup? I predict he's gonna be the best ever!"

As for the discussion, it's hogwash. It's exciting to see someone break through, and it's only natural to make predictions about where they'll end up. Doesn't mean you'll be first in line to slate them if they have a dip in form, as a couple of you are trying hard to make it out to be.

[KM]

I remember Walcott receiving the same level of hype, some even called him the next Henry because he finished like Henry in a U21 match. He looks promising, but let's calm down. His performance against United as been overhyped IMO, an Arsenal blogger even said that he was ripping us apart.

[Red Pavan]

[Scrumpet]

Oh dear. I could only watch 10 seconds. Cringe.

[Successful]

Originally Posted by Twigginater

There's some bizarre thing in football fans that means if you're young and have a few good games, you're suddenly amazing. Theo Walcott had all this hype. I think it's a desire to get there ahead of your friends, with regards to spotting talent, and also this bizarre idea which seems to have come from FM that a player improves rapidly till they're 21 then suddenly stops.

Theo Walcott has scored 6 goals and has 7 assists this year in premier league games. He's hardly been as woeful as everyone's made out. Yet people act like "The Ox" whose played about 3 games at the top level deserves to go to the Euros ahead of him.

The stages of a good players career now goes:

a) Heard about in reserve teams, hyped up massively
b) Plays a few good games for first team, suddenly going to be the best player ever in the world
c) Hits the age of 22, still not a definite starter, maybe troubles with injuries, has a few poorish games
d) Everyone says they lack game intelligence, and right them off as never going to be good enough.

See: Walcott, Evans, Rafael

Macheda, Welbeck, Sturridge etc etc are at various stages of this process as well.

I wish I could have done this rant. Been fighting with transfer muppets up to this day about this very subject. A young player who is just below average in abillity compared to other premier league players but is good just because of his age. It shouldn't justify a star frame before you actually reach that level.

I believe Welbeck should be a bit above the rest and Evans should be considered an experienced premier league worker and Rafael is close to getting a break through lately.
/mr red tinted glasses.

[Twigginater]

Hasn't done much the last few games. At his age, this is of course perfectly natural.

But I think it shows the unreal hype placed on him by certain people in the media. just today there's an article in the Mail calling him Arsenal's saviour.

[Brwned]

Showed his vision again with a few nicely slipped through balls following his own goal though...

He was pretty terrible today up until that point, bright enough after. Was expecting him to be taken off for Walcott earlier and if it weren't for Squillaci's injury I reckon that would've happened. Apparently didn't play any better last time round against Sunderland either. Looked bright against Milan off the bench but he's showed in his last two starts why he didn't start in Milan.

[Red Dreams]

I can see why we were in for him. But if Wenger continues in his ways with Arsenal, he may be tapped up by the likes of Chelsea and City in a few years.

Certainly should be in the England squad in two years.

[Pogue Mahone]

In the last 270 minutes of football he hasn't beaten his full-back once. Maybe, just maybe, this will put an end to all the lunacy about him already being Arsenal's most potent attacking threat.

[Neutral]

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

In the last 270 minutes of football he hasn't beaten his full-back once. Maybe, just maybe, this will put an end to all the lunacy about him already being Arsenal's most potent attacking threat.

Arsenal pushed for an equaliser but Sebastian Larsson's shot was put into his own net by Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain.
It was an unfortunate moment for the 18-year-old, who was one of Arsenal's more impressive performers on a dark day for the club.

BBC Sport - Sunderland 2-0 Arsenal

[Edmeiste]

Originally Posted by Red Pavan

....

[Pogue Mahone]

On a side note, I felt genuinely bad for him when he scored the OG. He looked devastated.

I thought it was disgraceful that not one senior player came over to console him and help him get his head back in the game. Speaks volumes about the pitiful team spirit this latest Arsenal side seem to have.

[ArmchairCritic]

Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone

I thought it was disgraceful that not one senior player came over to console him and help him get his head back in the game. Speaks volumes about the pitiful team spirit this latest Arsenal side seem to have.

I came in here to the exact same thing! Such a lack of leadership over at the Emirates.

[kps88]

It says it all when I struggle to think of who should have gone over and consoled him.